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A few questions on the WEP in all DB601 engines in the Dover series


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After I did all the necessary tests, please see the following chart:

 

 

210328095845507061.jpg

 

 

When it comes to talk about the real thing, I mean, military aviation back in the 1930s and 1940s... please trust me: I know nothing about the WEP technology in the DB601 engines.

 

WEP, as you already know, stands for "War Emergency Power", a term mainly used by American-English speakers in the 1940s. It is fair enough to me if the game uses this term when referring to any potential extra-power technology which could be intended to enhance the usual rate of power, whatever the plane would be concerned by the affected control line in the "Controls Options" menu. In the game, "Boost Cut-Out" is a distinct control line to map, and this is fair enough to me as well because both control lines refer to completely different technologies.

 

Now, going back to the WEP, both in the historical DB601 engines and in the game's modelled DB601s, please, I really need some help:

 

1) What was this technology based on in the DB601 engines?

 

2) This WEP in the DB601 engine... how whas it called by the Germans?

 

3) The Italian WEP technology really seems to be different... how was it named by the Italians? What was it based on?

 

4) Why is it only lasting one minute in the German planes while it seems to have no time limit in the Italian C.202s?

 

5) If it only lasts a minute... why it has been said that there are no engine timers in the "Cliffs of Dover" simulator?

 

6) Why is this WEP present in some German planes and not present in the other German planes ? (I understand that some 109s and 110s were nothing but "derated" subvariants, ok... but are really historically correct all those subvariants in the game?

 

 

Edited by 343KKT_Kintaro
I fixed one mistake in the chart
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Posted (edited)

I'd like to clarify that the above grid of boxes I produced, mainly refers to the WEP as a binding in the Controls Options menu in the game. This is why, in the grid, there's no mention to the GM-1 mixture injection system (Göring Mischung 1), which I already use in the game: the GM-1 equips two planes in the Dover series, the Bf 109 E-7/Z and the Bf 109 F-4/Z. In other words, you may consider that the GM-1 is a type of WEP, or that the Boost Cut-Out is a type of WEP too... but the chart doesn't refer to that. Nevertheless, the GM-1 was only used at high altitude (not before you reach an altitude of 8000 metres minimum, at least following the flashcards) and this is an additional reason why, in my opinion, it shouldn't be considerd as a WEP.

 

I remember that the Water-Methanol injection system (MW50 = Methanol-Wasser 50 ) was already modelled in IL-2 1946, back in the good old days, but IL-2 Cliffs of Dover gives me impression that no plane on its lists is equipped with. Historically, before the first 109 Gs were leaving the production line, only a few 109 F-4s received the MW50.

 

Now a friend of mine is reminding me, by email, a few past exchanges he and me had in... 2006 (yeah, I know, we are not a bunch of youngsters...). There he talked about the German injection systems (GM-1 and MW50) but also the "Erhöhte Notleistung", which injects nothing in the cylinders as it simply is a supplementary compression of the air that enters the air intake. On this matter, could somebody tell if whether or not the "Erhöhte Notleistung" refers to "forced induction"? Furthermore... is this "Erhöhte Notleistung" the WEP as it is in the game, at least in the 109s and 110s? At any rate, this doesn't clarify what system the Italians were using in their Macchis, nor it clarifies what the Italian WEP was based on, nor it clarifies why we see no button in our modelled Bf 109 and Bf 110 cockpits, nor why the 109s' and 110s' WEP stops automatically after one minute of use in the game...

 

Again, I'd be very happy if somebody could bring some answers to these questions.

 

 

Edited by 343KKT_Kintaro
"Historically, before the first 109 Gs were leaving the production line, only a few 109 F-4s received the MW50", this is wrong, as per Karaya's correction.
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The WEP gives you extra boost and I think also increases max rpm(not sure about that). Erhöhte Notleistung was used on BMW801 engines which are not in the game. All the engines have forced induction in form of superchargers otherwise their performance would drop of significantly with altitude.

 

The C.202 uses a license built DB601. I do not know what they use as WEP but I think we can be reasonably certain that it was the same as in case of the german DB601. So nothing fancy just extra boost and rpm.

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Originally the DB601 had a mechanism that restricted WEP time to 1min by means of a clockwork. After 1 min of use the throttle lever was set back to the combat position. This was dispensed of starting with the DB601N and later models. That is most likely also the reason why the Italian copy of the DB601A doesnt have such a mechanism. It entered production in late 1941 when this mechanism had been phased out of service also in the German Luftwaffe.

 

Also there are no engine timers in CloD, the 1min clockwork is not an engine timer. I don't think you understand the meaning of the term in the context it is used in in BoX.

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1 hour ago, palker4 said:

Erhöhte Notleistung was used on BMW801 engines which are not in the game.

 

 

So this was a wrong track, many thanks Palker!

 

 

1 hour ago, palker4 said:

All the engines have forced induction in form of superchargers otherwise their performance would drop of significantly with altitude.

 

 

I don't kown what do you exactly mean by "all the engines", but I guess you refer to at least all first-line fighter aircraft (like the Bf 109 for example).

 

 

1 hour ago, palker4 said:

The C.202 uses a license built DB601. I do not know what they use as WEP but I think we can be reasonably certain that it was the same as in case of the german DB601. So nothing fancy just extra boost and rpm.

 

 

For both planes, the binding in the list of Controls Options is the same ("Toggle War Emergency Power"). But in the German 109s and 110s I simply cannot find out where the button is located in the cockpits. On the contrary, in all four Italian 202s the WEP button is visible in the cockpit, it is located on the tip of the throttle lever:

 

 

210307063348309536.jpg

 

 

1 hour ago, Karaya said:

Originally the DB601 had a mechanism that restricted WEP time to 1min by means of a clockwork.

 

 

Ok, so a clockwork mechanism restricted the WEP to 1 min but, before this happened... how the pilot started the WEP? And what technology was using that WEP in those original DB601 engines?

 

 

1 hour ago, Karaya said:

After 1 min of use the throttle lever was set back to the combat position.

 

 

Very, very, very, very interesting because this leads me to imagine that most probably there was no starter button for that WEP. Maybe the pilot pushed his throttle fully forward, thus engaging the extra boost (by means of an impeller on the way of the air intake, for example, or a supercharger directly connected to the cylinders mixture intake). Then, after one minute, the clockworck mechanism sent the throttle back, as you say. I hope I'm not assuming too much, I know I must be careful as I'm still trying to understand those past technologies.

 

 

1 hour ago, Karaya said:

This was dispensed of starting with the DB601N and later models. That is most likely also the reason why the Italian copy of the DB601A doesnt have such a mechanism. It entered production in late 1941 when this mechanism had been phased out of service also in the German Luftwaffe.

 

 

Makes sens, yep... and clarifies a lot about this difference between German DB601s and Italian DB601s. Thanks a bunch!

 

 

1 hour ago, Karaya said:

Also there are no engine timers in CloD, the 1min clockwork is not an engine timer. I don't think you understand the meaning of the term in the context it is used in in BoX.

 

 

Don't worry, Karaya, I do understand the difference. If you go back to item 5 on the list of questions in the original post, you'll indeed realise I used that term, "timer", but referring to the IL2GB sens of that term. Now you are mentioning a really existing technology back in the late 1930s & early 1940s, a technology intended to lock the WEP after one minute of use. So the answer to question 5 is "No, there are no engine timers in IL2CoD". Understood.

 

I really thank you guys as you clarified a lot of things today. Nevertheless, I still don't know what kind of technology was used for the WEP in these aircraft in the game. Also, if the player can set the WEP on and off in the game... then a button, or any other kind of action should be visible in the cockpit, even if the device is not animated. A button is visible in the Italian planes... why nothing is visible when it comes to use the WEP on board one 109 or one 110?

 

 

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On the C202 the red button on the Throttle allows you to shift the lever further back to the "+100" (più cento) position which means 100mm quiksilver more or from 1,2 to 1,3 ATA (going by memory, anyway +0,1 ATA at the deck). Further you have the propeller pitch command you can put on "S" which means "Supergiri" and allows the engine to reach 2400 rpm. If I find it in my folders I'll post a table regarding engine setting for take off and climb with allowances for use of the various settings. I almost never touch the pitch controller though as it seems that when you touch it is like putting the fingers on a hig tension circuit: more often than not the regulator will brake in pieces.

Edited by 4SCT_CR42Falco
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Falco perfectly described the function of the red button, which practically and simply allowed you to move the throttle at the end of the excursion (I mean "fine corsa").

 

Kintaro, most WEP systems were just that: allowing you to push more throttle (so more boost). A very simple mechanism. 

You can see something similar in the Spitfire's throttle, where movement is limited by a metal plate (which can be raised if you need the full throttle).

There was an even simpler method, which consisted of straining a copper wire (it had the same function as the metal plate) and which could be broken by pilots simply by pushing the throttle forward with more force. The pilots were theoretically allowed to do so only in case of real need and emergency, but in reality they broke the copper wire whenever they saw enemies in the area, with relative curses by the specialists once on the ground. 😊

 

Some aircraft, instead, had the throttle that moved slightly sideways when passed "normal power" line. Fw 190, for ex., has something like that. This system is still used in many aircraft today. 

 

These are all very simple systems and should not be confused with other things, such as GM-1 or MW50, which required the injection of other substances.

 

As you mentioned, what in the game and commonly is called WEP, had other names, depending on the country.
In Italy it seems that it did not have a clear name, it could be "massima potenza" (max power or maybe combat power or also emergency power) or even "+100" (for the reason said by Falco).

 

Returning to Macchi 202, I have some pictures:

manetta2.png

 

manetta-macchi.png

 

manetta-100.png

 

manetta.png

 

tempi-e-rpm.png

Edited by 5th_Hellrider
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On 3/17/2021 at 2:03 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

I remember that the Water-Methanol injection system (MW50 = Methanol-Wasser 50 ) was already modelled in IL-2 1946, back in the good old days, but IL-2 Cliffs of Dover gives me impression that no plane on its lists is equipped with. Historically, before the first 109 Gs were leaving the production line, only a few 109 F-4s received the MW50.

 

No Friedrich ever had or was tested with MW-50 injection.

The first service use of water-methanol injection was in March 1944 on Bf109G-6/U2 models that had their GM-1 system modified.

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What Hellrider says! I think to remember that in the manual there is also mentioned that above a certain altitude (4.000mt? 6.000mt?) you could use 1,30ATA with no limits but don't rely on my memory! 🙂 

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3 hours ago, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

What Hellrider says! I think to remember that in the manual there is also mentioned that above a certain altitude (4.000mt? 6.000mt?) you could use 1,30ATA with no limits but don't rely on my memory! 🙂 

These early DB601A or Aa engines could not generate 1.30 ata over their full throttle height... which was 4500 meters for the E-3/E-4.

 

The DB601N in the E-4N or E-7N was limited to 1.35 ata at 4900 meters... so the same applied.

 

So your comment is actually mistaken... their was no potential to generate these boost levels.

 

What you may be thinking of:

 

All these early engines were given a new rating in November of 1940 for higher allowable rpms over 6000 meters... as the maximum boost which could be generated dropped.

 

So the 601A engines which were normally limited to 2400 rpm were allowed 2600 rpm and the 601N which were normally limited to 2600 rpm were allowed 2800 rpm.

 

But these allowable over rpm limits came with the warning that temperatures needed to be carefully monitored.

 

And they could not be used below 6000 meters as the chances of damage were too high.

 

In the game the players can use these higher rpm ratings if they are careful.

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On 3/18/2021 at 10:04 PM, 4SCT_CR42Falco said:

What Hellrider says! I think to remember that in the manual there is also mentioned that above a certain altitude (4.000mt? 6.000mt?) you could use 1,30ATA with no limits but don't rely on my memory! 🙂 

 

The manual says that above 6000 m can be used full throttle height without any duration limit. This is precisely for the reason that Buzzsaw says: at this altitude there was no potential to generate high boost levels. Low ATA, in short. 

 

The manual also says that 2400 RPM can be keep for a maximum of 10 minutes at any altitude.

 

Manifold pressure instrument is what you always have to check. The ATA that can be pushed without problems are 1.23. Continuous.

 

ATA.png

 

The instrument is positioned in such a way as to have this value at 12 o'clock. When the needle exceeds 12 o'clock, it means that you are going into "combat power" (or in any case more boost than normal).
It's the same for the 109s.

 

 

All the instruments in motors stuff are like this: with the continuous limit set at 12 o'clock. Just see how were the revolution counters of the racing cars or of motorbikes.

Now this custom is being lost, because it's all digital. In fact, you don't see a s**t anymore. 😂

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On 3/19/2021 at 1:08 AM, Buzzsaw said:

These early DB601A or Aa engines could not generate 1.30 ata over their full throttle height... which was 4500 meters for the E-3/E-4.

 

The DB601N in the E-4N or E-7N was limited to 1.35 ata at 4900 meters... so the same applied.

 

So your comment is actually mistaken... their was no potential to generate these boost levels.

 

What you may be thinking of:

 

All these early engines were given a new rating in November of 1940 for higher allowable rpms over 6000 meters... as the maximum boost which could be generated dropped.

 

So the 601A engines which were normally limited to 2400 rpm were allowed 2600 rpm and the 601N which were normally limited to 2600 rpm were allowed 2800 rpm.

 

But these allowable over rpm limits came with the warning that temperatures needed to be carefully monitored.

 

And they could not be used below 6000 meters as the chances of damage were too high.

 

In the game the players can use these higher rpm ratings if they are careful.

Thank you for claryfying: spot on 😊

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On 3/17/2021 at 8:19 PM, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

But in the German 109s and 110s I simply cannot find out where the button is located in the cockpits.

 

In Bf 109 E  the "WEP button" is the throttle lever. :) 

 

307766695_Bf109Throttle_WEP.thumb.jpg.c9518247bae261140032edfcb98d7d59.jpg

 

 

Quote

There was an even simpler method, which consisted of straining a copper wire (it had the same function as the metal plate) and which could be broken by pilots simply by pushing the throttle forward with more force.

 

P-51D Mustang. The wire is modeled in DCS P-51D and is "broken" when WEP is engaged for the first time (in each flight).

 

1195180886_P-41DmustangthrottleWEPwire.jpg.807eca4071a97738649ea8dd740bee8c.jpg

Edited by Sokol1
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Thank you Sokol1, now this is very clear. So if there was a German term for this kind of "technology" (let's call it that way), then the Germans called this the 'Anschlag Abflug" (the "takeoff" position, refering to the "beyond-of-full-power" position of the lever). I wonder if Emil pilots were instructed to use it during the takeoff only, or if their instructors allowed them to us it in combat too.


Yesterday in the evening, with two good old friends, I did a few sorties in the "Wings of Liberty" server of the Great Battles series. They know well the IL2GB simulator and they told me this sort of "WEP" is not modelled in the "Great Battles" Emils. At least we have it in the Dover series. Obviously it is not accurate when you use your binding for the WEP if your throttle is set beneath 100% of thrust, but there's no interest in doing so. For a good use in the game, I'll simply keep pushing the throttle fully forward, pushing my HOTAS button for my WEP, wait one minute... and "Alles Gut". :P

 

 

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6 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Thank you Sokol1, now this is very clear. So if there was a German term for this kind of "technology" (let's call it that way), then the Germans called this the 'Anschlag Abflug" (the "takeoff" position, refering to the "beyond-of-full-power" position of the lever). I wonder if Emil pilots were instructed to use it during the takeoff only, or if their instructors allowed them to us it in combat too.

 

 

In WWII in combat, pilots used whatever options were available to them when their lives were threatened and they were in a fight to the death.

 

That was the case whether or not the use of the particular technology or option was recommended.

 

Personal accounts make it clear the fear, anger and adrenaline generated in combat made pilots willing to do whatever was necessary to survive.

 

Factories or Maintenance crews might be concerned with whether their engine or aircraft would suffer greater wear and have a shorter use period... but pilots could care less about that... they were concerned with saving their own lives.

 

This was the case across the spectrum of nationalities, both Axis and Allied/Soviet.

 

At the same time, while pilots might not hesitate before using something like WEP in an dangerous combat situation, they were much less ready to use these options in non-combat situations or combat situations where they had a clear advantage and were not threatened... because again, when they used them, the pilot was risking a chance of engine failure and not returning to base... and survival was the key factor in a pilot's mind.

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http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/Erprobung_2581.pdf

 

The above link is to the period German test results on the Fw 190.  I translated some of this for practice because I had not read any of the manuals in a long time.

 

I was brought in through a friend to fly 6 replica Fw-190s back in the mid 90's as they were bought by a group of pilots from America West and I think a couple of other carriers.

I had experience in the CAF in Harlingen, TX and was a friend of one of the buyers so I got the chance. Unfortunately the program got snagged by regulations and was held up for a long period of time and I changed jobs and was out of the country and never finished. I have the English version of what we called a -1 (manual) for the Fw-190 and had studied up on the machine before going out to PHX where the first two planes were uncrated and being assembled. I have pictures (back when we used film)  of the planes being uncrated and assembled. One of the guys at JG1 asked a couple of weeks ago for help with translating this so I gave it a poke on evenings when I couldn't sleep. 🙂

 

It's not the same obviously, later time period and different engine but I thought since I had it sitting next to the delete bin I would throw it on here for fun.  It is interesting about the length of time that the engines were run using this method of boost. I make no claims of accuracy on the translation as I am getting old and fuzzy on things.

 

LL

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Summary

The flight test at 1.65 and 2,700 rpm was carried out at low level with 5 aircraft. Overall, with the individual series engines, flight times were exclusively recorded using increased emergency war power. From: from: 10 1/2, 10, 1 1/4 and 3/4 hours were achieved without causing major engine malfunctions.
There are therefore no concerns about the already successful approval of the increased emergency service in the event of an emergency when working in front of the floor loader. For engines with increased emergency power that use the emergency services  the latest changes to the exhaust system must be carried out beforehand and the engine especially the exhaust system must be carefully monitored during flight operations.
The test is temporarily canceled because the VDM variable speed gear units with roller bearings that are still to be tested have not yet been approved for flight operations.

I. Study
The testing of the increased emergency power for 801 D2 1.65 ata, 2700 rpm is after the favorable result of the first endurance test of 6 1/2 hours exclusively with increased emergency power. (See section Nbr 29. ErPr. Hr 2581) Under the conditions of the Jabo deployment in 5 Fw-190 aircraft near the ground. <low altitude>
The operational safety is to be determined with regard to the deployment at the front.
II. Results
The increase in speed with increased emergency power near the ground compared to take-off power with 6 different aircraft was between 30 and 45 km/h.The boost pressures that can be achieved near the ground with increased emergency power load are between 1.61-1.66 ata. With beneficial outside temperatures (in winter) higher boost pressures result (up to 1.68)
The boost pressure regulator is set to a regulated starting boost pressure of 1.42 ata to + emergency power boost pressure of 1.42 ata + 0.02 ata with a regulated starting boost pressure of 1.44 ata. The boost pressure regulator regulates to an emergency performance pressure of 1.68 ata.
When operated with increased emergency power in horizontal flight near the ground, the cylinder temperatures experience an increase of about 3 ° -8 ° compared to operation with take-off power. The oil cooling with the normal serial cooler of the Fw-190 is only sufficient up to outside temperatures of about + 20 ° C.
After operation with increased emergency power for up to 5-10 hours per gearbox without failures, the 13006 A-4 and A-5 variable speed gears displayed tarnish colors and scuff marks on the gears. 13006 A-6 vented air tested - large cracks on the tooth flanks (sides) and 13006 A-6 with wheels slight cracks on the tooth flanks. (sides) The durability of the exhaust system could be significantly improved by strengthening the connecting bolts on the tabs of the exhaust pipes to 10 mm. Frequent travel (movement) of the oil cooler means that the force is severely restricted. Sealing the push-wire transducers to the fastening flanges made for considerable difficulties, as the instructions for changing the throttling of the oil supply had not yet been carried out.
Frequent ignition faults result in the following causes: 
Bad insulation of the ignition cables
After standing for a long time, the spark plugs will become molten, especially on the lower cylinders
III. Causes
1.) 2.3. :  In emergencies the increased emergency power can only be withdrawn for as short a time as possible , even when the temperature is over 20 °. The exceeding of the extremely high oil inlet temperature that may occur during this process is acceptable.
2.) 2.4. : Approval of the VDM variable speed gearboxes for operation with increased emergency power: 
The gearboxes 13006 A-4 and A-5 are not to be used due to the possibility of breakage and should be replaced as quickly as possible. 
13006 A-6 to be exchanged with K-wheels (gears) for 13006 A-8.
The gearboxes 13006 with (louvered)  air test         can be used
                            13006 A-6 with K-wheels                   can be used
The gearboxes 13006 promise increased operational reliability due to the use of 1409 as gearwheel material and are to be used as soon as possible. Their testing is still to be carried out.
3.)  2.5. : For operation with increased emergency power, the change in the exhaust gas position (Fw-190 No. 43/82) must be carried out and the connecting bolts of the exhaust pipes of cylinders 1, 2, 3 and 4 as well as 11, 12, 13 and 14 must be reinforced, a wall thickness of 8mm is very desirable. (Instructions for this change are in progress)
4.) 2.6 : The new bracket for the oil cooler expansion ring, which is intended to increase the operational reliability of the cooler (modification instruction Fw-190 43/89 new attachment of the hardened ring), must be tested as quickly as possible and introduced to the troops.
5.) 2.7 : Implementation of the modification instruction BMW No. 801-34 / 41 (Flow nozzle in oil supply bore e.g. BMW 101/4 throttle slide for stem wire actuator flange) is to be checked for oil wire transmitter. (see also Fw-190 K no. 1.42 serial 352/42)
6.) 2.8 :    A) It is necessary to improve the spark plug cables by using warm and cold-sensitive insulating material.
                  B) It is to be tested whether by attaching oil drain plugs to the supply tubes of the lower cylinders, the loss of the plugs 
                       can be avoided. 
7.) 2.2 :        For engines that fly with increased emergency power, the starting boost pressure of 1.42 ata must be set as precisely
                       as possible.

Carrying out the testing
1. Data:
The tests were carried out with those listed in the table on page 5.
Five Fw-190 aircraft performed the testing.
Except for the standard equipment in all five aircraft: 
Boost pressure in the boost pressure regulator Additionally with SB + IK (Aircraft ID):     Boost pressure for supercharger
(confused here as it details the positioning of the temp probes and as best I understand it... temperature in the intake manifold prior to the supercharger and the following aircraft and their configurations) Airtemp probe into Cylinder 10, Cylinder head temperatures in #7 and #8. 
Internals: System to increase the boost pressure to 1.65 ata and to inject 0-3 fuel into the intake.
Aircraft PG+OJ and SB+IK ..????  don't understand Temporary installation in the cockpit of ???
I skipped the rest of the above....
Results of the Trial
In the period from May 17 to the beginning of July 1943, the flights were carried out for endurance tests. It was used every 10-20 minutes. It was flown pre-flight 10-20 minutes with economy performance and then about 20-25 minutes with increased emergency performance in low altitude flight. The average intake pressures flown during the endurance test and the flight times are summarized in the table on page 5.
The tests on the aircraft SB + IK and BC + XO ended without incident.
The engine no. 25 152 in PG + GJ failed at the end of the test after 29 hours (total) of which 10.26 hours with increased emergency release due to a broken shaft at the inlet valve of cylinder 7. The failure is due to the setting of too high a valve clearance in the manufacturer's works and was not caused by the increased emergency service. (See see partial report no. 53 Erpr. No. 258
On engine No. 305 573 in SS + GL there was an increased emergency power on the 7th flight due to the breakage of the swivel connection for fuel pressure measurement)


 

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Posted (edited)

Thank you Buzzsaw... your response was fascinating, although it definitely gave me the creeps! I'm glad we are simply dealing with simulations...

 

Dear Larry: that-was-ab-so-lu-te-ly-fan-tas-tic! So you flew at least a few copies of Fw 190! I'm pretty sure that was quite an experience for you. I'm not a pilot in the real life, so I'll never know. Anyway you may already know that in the Dover series the Fw 190 is confirmed to be in the works...

Edited by 343KKT_Kintaro
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Kintaro,

 

Thank you for the kind words, I have enjoyed following your posts for a long time now. I never got to fly the Fw-190 but I did all the work leading up to it...BOO!  I think they ran into the same problems that Herb Tischler did here in Fort Worth (Texas Airplane Factory) with the Me-262 project back about the same time. I am still sorting out my library but I have some neato pictures of the planes coming out of the crates and being assembled. Hopefully I will get the last of the boxes unpacked by this Summer and I can post some of them. I was in Harlingen, TX from 1981-1985 and spent time with the CAF when it was the Confederate AF... which is now politically incorrect. I flew the T-6 and P-51 along with a Stearman and other antiques. There wasn't much else to do there. 🙂

 

There is more to that document that has not been translated, I will go back and finish it when I can get to it. It was interesting about the length of time that they were running the enhanced power setting, I didn't know that they were using it for such long periods of time.  We had water meth injection on turboprops that came either as an emergency power augmentation in case of engine failure at or near V1 or for takeoff augmentation during hot/high performance situations but they were never intended for more than a few minutes, though I know that using up the tank was done on many instances. (ooops) The Sa-226/227 had both systems and if you were empty and lit that off it was really a hoot to make that airplane GO. 

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Just so everyone understands and there is no confusion:

 

-  We expect to have the FW-190A in the next TF module... but those will be early models, A-1/A-2/A-3.

 

The A-1 and A-2 were equipped with the BMW-801C engine... which ran on 87 octane fuel to start... and were limited to 1.32 ata.

 

The A-3 was equipped with the updated BMW-801D engine... which used C-3 93/100 octane fuel and could use 1.42 ata boost.

 

None of these aircraft used 1.65 ata, that was first used by the 190A-5 model, and some updated 190A-4.  😉

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Hi Buzz, hi Guys. (sorry for the OT)


Thank you for your continuos improvements.
Just a question, in order to develop even better the realism of this amazing Combat Simulator.

1) So far, we all suffer a lot for visibility lack.
Under 5 miles the contacts visibility is accetable, but over 5 miles all Objects in Flight disappear completely.
Same problem for Targets on ground,  that makes difficult for a Bomber prepare well any Bombing run.

Would you keep in consideration to enlarge the visibility Range to 10 Miles?
This Data is absolutely realistic, in particular for objects with some altitude, not suffering for the ground haze.
And you will give the possibility to Bombers to prepare better routes and attacks.

We have the positive example of DCS which, improving the contact visibility to 10 miles, has reached a very good compromise between reality and playability...

2) Moreover, have you ever considered  increasing the "contrast" in contacts, to increase the differences between light (highlights) and dark (shadows) tones?
This would also reflect the "depth of field" of human vision and the Doppler effect, that allows the human eye to "perceive moving objects on a fixed background "...
Therefore, an increase of visibility in this way would not be a decrease in realism, but an increase, bringing the limited vision through a monitor closer to the better three-dimensional view of the human eye.

Thank you for your  opinion and explanation.

(this is a real photo, not a game...)

Palermo, aerei militari sulla città: è un servizio fotografico  dell'Aeronautica - la Repubblica

Cheers 
Cip

Edited by ITA_Cipson
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I can spot contacts up to 12km on ATAG and TWC servers.

MP server admins can edit a "icon.rcu" file and set the distance at which dots are rendered to their likings.

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If there is one game I wouldn‘t think about how bad spotting is, it‘s CloD. I run 1080p to see better (15 km) but in 1440p wasn‘t that much worse.
I still think CloD still has the best spotting among BoS, DCS and CloD. DCS is the worst and BoS did a great job with their fix last year.

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I think Cipson is referring to seeing stuff on the ground, even quite large things, like forts, airports and more. These things appear too late, when you are too close. This happens more in the Tobruk map, the Channel map is much better.

 

Air contacts spotting, on the other hand, is very good. Although some say it has decreased slightly over the years. I always see more or less the same.

 

We are a bit OT. 😅

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38 minutes ago, 5th_Hellrider said:

We are a bit OT. 😅

 

 

No worries if we are OT. I launched the present thread by means of a few questions I was asking... and I obtained very satisfactory answers from this fantastic CloD community. Please guys feel free to discuss whatever matter you consider is interesting to discuss.

 

 

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If you are a mission builder you can put a static aircraft in the target area to act as sort of beacon cause the dots for those are visible from miles away even on when they are just static.

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13 hours ago, 5th_Hellrider said:

I think Cipson is referring to seeing stuff on the ground, even quite large things, like forts, airports and more. These things appear too late, when you are too close. This happens more in the Tobruk map, the Channel map is much better.

 

Air contacts spotting, on the other hand, is very good. Although some say it has decreased slightly over the years. I always see more or less the same.

 

We are a bit OT. 😅


Yeah, I think ground targets are still limited by the render bubble. Like when flying over London or other big cities and you see the circe of buildings popping up in the distance. If you zoom in you see the ground targets, you zoom out, they are gone.

Edited by 9./JG52_J-HAT
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We will be increasing the render bubble distance significantly in our next major patch for BLITZ and TOBRUK. 

 

(same patch when we release trueSKY, no we don't have a date yet)

 

Will be a option for players to basically double the render distance for ground objects.

 

On both maps.

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Oh Great BUZZ! 
Therefore Guys in next Bombing Runs on Britain in ITALIANWING BATTLE OF BRITAIN 1940, you Bombers will have Targets in sight at the right moment....😉image.thumb.png.285864e8dbf6373d28f0186f4705457f.png
(image from Italianwing BoB1940)




Thank You Very Much....
Cip

____
PS: And what about the eventual increasing contrast for contact?  Also this would be a great improvement....


 

Edited by ITA_Cipson
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Always with excuses for the OT and related to "PS: And what about the eventual increasing contrast for contact?  Also this would be a great improvement...."

I would specify better the problem.
In the follow shot you can see some contrails without the related Dot... well imagine the Situational Awareness without Contrails...

image.thumb.png.075c49927f06e74c0cc33422a3b53449.png

(image from Italianwing BoB1940)

 

 

 

Edited by ITA_Cipson
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LoL, please no offense my dear Cipson, but... how nitpicking you are! aren't you? those aircraft are far  far below this 109 cockpit... PLENTY of dots are visible and only a few of them are not, so this image is maybe perfectly consistent and perfectly realistic... isn't it?

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Sorry Guys I would show better the problem. I am not an expert but Some Expert could solve in the right way:
image.thumb.png.2665226faf7fa0cc3b71ac7bfe7dc3a9.png

 

and Plots are composed like this:

image.thumb.png.bd278b8ee1df28c58c62c52854ab3455.png

Probably if programmers could maintain (in some way )a minimum number of plots, would be possible to gain something...  (but as I said , I am not an expert....)
Cheers Cip :)

 

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No problem Cipson, feel free to create a new topic whenever.

 

Please chaps note that on the original post above I replaced the old chart with a new chart after I proceed to a correction (the "109 E-7 Trop" DOES present a WEP in the game, so now this box is couloured white with a "yes" infill).

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