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How do you make use of altitude, if no one is using it?


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I'm recently learning to play MP while simultaneously reading up how to fight in certain aircraft. Climb rates and performance seem to vary more greatly at 20k+ ft. Late war German aircraft appear to have most advantages under 20k ft. All multiplayer I've played so far takes place under 10k ft, I've yet to see anyone above that altitude (Finnish and CombatBox) aside from a lone Jug I once found above the clouds.

 

Anyway, my main question relates to altitude advantages, dive speeds and control authority. Because of my low skill, I'm finding any alitude advantage of 3k ft or more to actually hinder my combat capability. If I encounter targets below me and want to engange them, I tend to reach my peak dive speed before/during the engagement, lose most control authority (start to black out with the slighest pull, low roll/turn ability), and am only presented with a tiny window of opporunity to make a high angle off/snap shot if the target has stayed sraight and level. Once I complete the high alt dive pass (missing the shot or not taking the shot), enemy aircraft tend to just follow me up and take my six, and the altitude advanage is wasted. I tend to have more luck just cruising at the same alt as everyone else and engagging in vertical turn fights. 

 

When you have a few thousand feet of altitude advantage, and want to engage targets below you, then how do you bleed/manage energy so you're not supersonic after choosing to engage?

Edited by rogueblade
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Make sure your dive angle is not too steep, so dive from distance, not directly above them. This way you will have more time, less speed loss trying to climb again and overall easier to get away.

 

If you still choose a steeper approach, you can always do some rolls or turns, heck you can even disengage and set up again.

 

Remember (even if it is a saying for landings, you can also use it here): If in doubt, go around.

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1 hour ago, rogueblade said:

and am only presented with a tiny window of opporunity to make a high angle off/snap shot

 

This though was the sweetspot where many aces made their kills. We all have that trope in our minds of cinematic, hollywoodian air combat with all the dramatic turns and rolls over several minutes ("he's on my six!" ... "I can't shake him" ...  "Pooorkins!") but I imagine that at "pro" level, it would be more like a lot of work to get into a favorable position without being spotted, then a split-second fire coming from an odd direction. And that was it. 

 

Edit: my point being, maybe you are doing it right and it just takes some perfecting.

Edited by danielprates
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Altitude doesn't always make a fight easier, but it does give you choice. So long as you have altitude, you can choose to engage the enemy or not to engage. Without that choice, you must rely only on your skill and luck to stay alive.

 

Chose the right time

You don't have to dive the second you see an enemy below you. Wait until the enemy is in a position that presents a good shot. This might mean the enemy presents his 6oc or that he is stalling, flying very slowly or distracted by something. If it does not appear to be likely that the enemy will present a shot you can take then.....

 

Choose your target

You don't have to dive on the first enemy you see. Your altitude gives you the choice to ignore an enemy that might be a difficult target and search for easier prey.

 

Plan for the end of your attack

Depending on the situation, you plan might involve extending away at speed, climbing at high speed or continuing the dive to escape. IfYour exit plan should involve you ending up either high above or far away from any enemy fighters; ideally both.


Dive towards a point where you won't need to turn to take the shot 

That might mean driving towards a spot of the enemy's six if he is moving away from you, or it might mean driving towards an intercept point ahead of the enemy if you do not start the dive on his six, or if he is in a turn. If the enemy is attacking a friendly, use the friendlys movements to predict the bandits path. 

 

Manage your speed

Even shooting an enemy who does not see you can be difficult if you are too fast to control the plane. The fastest way to bleed speed is to apply opposite rudder and aileron whilst idling the engine.

 

Maintain speed and/or altitude after your pass

Don't enter a turn above ~1.5g just to get a shot. All your speed and altitude can be wasted away in a single turn. No exit plan should involve you being slow, even if you are high above all the enemies that you know about. Act like there is always a higher enemy you don't know about. At any point, you

should be ready to cancel the attack.

Edited by [DBS]Browning
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8 hours ago, rogueblade said:

I'm recently learning to play MP while simultaneously reading up how to fight in certain aircraft. Climb rates and performance seem to vary more greatly at 20k+ ft. Late war German aircraft appear to have most advantages under 20k ft. All multiplayer I've played so far takes place under 10k ft, I've yet to see anyone above that altitude (Finnish and CombatBox) aside from a lone Jug I once found above the clouds.

 

Already some great suggestions on here and I don't have much to add there. I will say, however, that you may be missing those aircraft flying higher. I was on last night and three times we were engaged by enemy aircraft between 4000 and 5000 meters. Yes there was a lot of low altitude activity (typical in a tactical scenario) but there are aircraft flying and fighting above that.

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12 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

Dive towards the intercept point

Don't dive at the enemy; dive where he will be when you open fire.

 

Respectfully, you might want to reconsider this suggestion for a new MP 1GCCFP. In the business we talked about flying to the "elbow" (behind your bandit) rather than flying to the "wrist" (close to the bandit). Think of your right hand (close to your chest) chasing your left hand.  To my Jurassic Era brain, you're telling the OP to fly to the "wrist" which will probably result in a slightly different problem of too much overtake (velocity of closure) with a brief opportunity for a snapshot, potential that an aware bandit forces a high aspect pass, or perhaps a chance to practice his rolling scissors. Flying to the "elbow" is also referred to as flying to the "control zone" or "window" where you can drive the fight.

 

Initially pointing where the bandit is gets me moving to his turn circle, IMO pointing where I think the bandit might be when I arrive "in range," and hopefully "in plane, with lead" is a pretty big ask. YMMV :salute:

 

Edited by busdriver
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6 hours ago, busdriver said:

 

Respectfully, you might want to reconsider this suggestion for a new MP 1GCCFP. In the business we talked about flying to the "elbow" (behind your bandit) rather than flying to the "wrist" (close to the bandit). Think of your right hand (close to your chest) chasing your left hand.  To my Jurassic Era brain, you're telling the OP to fly to the "wrist" which will probably result in a slightly different problem of too much overtake (velocity of closure) with a brief opportunity for a snapshot, potential that an aware bandit forces a high aspect pass, or perhaps a chance to practice his rolling scissors. Flying to the "elbow" is also referred to as flying to the "control zone" or "window" where you can drive the fight.

 

Initially pointing where the bandit is gets me moving to his turn circle, IMO pointing where I think the bandit might be when I arrive "in range," and hopefully "in plane, with lead" is a pretty big ask. YMMV :salute:

 

Yeah, your right... Or at least your right for 6oc shots where some extra time to line up before you overtake at speed is useful. 

For a bandit tracking left/right or one coming towards you, better to fly to the intercept. Flying anywhere else is going to result in you needing to pull g and lose speed to make the snap shot. 

 

Post updated. 

Edited by [DBS]Browning
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3 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

For a bandit tracking left/right or one coming towards you, better to fly to the intercept. Flying anywhere else is going to result in you needing to pull g and lose speed to make the snap shot. 


Okay...that’s not how I was taught...or taught BFM. No worries, we clearly have different understanding of concepts.😉

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1 hour ago, busdriver said:


Okay...that’s not how I was taught...or taught BFM. No worries, we clearly have different understanding of concepts.😉

 

 

I suspect we share the same philosophy, but are missing something in our understanding of each other.

 

As I understand, to fly to the elbow looks something like this:

 

Elb.thumb.jpg.7aa04f0225d06e884d7358c77d643d32.jpg

 

Let's assume you are 2-3k above the enemy.

 

If you start the dive in  frame 1, then the turn in 3/4 will either need to be so high-g that you lose much or your speed in the turn, or it will need to be so wide that you lose much of your speed due to the distance you are covering. Your closing speed at 4 might be so low that you can not choose to disengage after your pass.

 

If you do not start the dive until frame 4, this works perfectly as you are now diving towards a point where you won't need to turn to take the shot.

 

If you do start the dive at frame 1, an intercept is better as you will keep as much speed as possible and have the choice to disengage after the pass.

 

elb2.thumb.jpg.4b80f8ab82d1220b24aef4d478249ffa.jpg

 

Flying to the elbow makes very good sense before the dive begins, but will bleed speed if it is done after the dive has started.

 

Edited by [DBS]Browning
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i have found over the years.

 

Easiest way to get a kill is to get enemys 6 with same speed and alt and shoot him. This will often times leave u low and slow, so vulnerable.

 

Easiest way to get a kill and survive is to have speed or altitude (edit: 500m to 1500m) advantage, close distance fast, fire ( hope u hit)  continue high speed and shallow climb. avoid enemy gunfire. Repeat if target not dead or disengage if target now really difficult to attack.

 

 

Neither is wrong or correct way.

A middle ground needs to be found, depending on situation.  never attack somebody with vertical dive 2km above them or something like that. Also depending on situation either dive full throttle or no throttle at all or something in between. 

 

Also situational awareness is important. its easier to fight if u spot enemies before they open fire or get to ur 6.

 

Fly a lot, be ready to be killed a lot and u will find a fighting style that suits u and is enjoyable.

 

see u in skies!

 

 

Edited by Mollotin
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On 3/10/2021 at 10:26 AM, [DBS]Browning said:

 

 

 

elb2.thumb.jpg.4b80f8ab82d1220b24aef4d478249ffa.jpg

 

Flying to the elbow makes very good sense before the dive begins, but will bleed speed if it is done after the dive has started.

 

 

This is just the type of thing that the Star of Africa would do after he decided to stop sucking and start being the legend he was to become. It has the added advantage that, assuming you get the shot in, it will hit the engine or better still, the pilot. 

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driving the elbow is mostly used when trailing. Don't turn before you're near the point of where the bandit started its turn to stay in lag pursuit.

Turning right away (keeping the enemy in your sights) during his turn, will result in either a head-on or high deflection (difficult) shot.

 

I tend to manouvre high to the six and dive. staying in lag pursuit all the time (crosshair behind/ below your target). 

When he turns you need to figure out if he's flying defensive (he saw you) or is just turning for a new heading.

if the first, fly to near his corner before turning to keep the pursuit on his six going. If he pulls high g, you need to decide if you can get a good shooting solution without bleeding to much energy yourself.  Don't forget you need to pull and release lift (center stick) before starting your burst to increase your hit chances.

 

usually, when i can't get a certain shot, just level off shortly (to get some horizontal spacing incase he tries to get a snapshot on your climb) and gently climb and try again.

 

A mistake I tend to make (quite alot too) though, is playing overly cautious and passive. Do go for the kill.

Edited by stevie
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