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The case for France 1940


PatrickAWlson

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DD_Arthur

I really wonder how easy it would be to model some of these planes to the required standard.

 I think the team would run into some of the same problems with this that they’ve had with Japanese aircraft.

Take the Do-17; a standard LW type of the early war years.

How many are left? Three or four and they’ve all spent at least seven decades on the sea bed before being recovered and preserved “as is.”

Jason has mentioned before the difficulties of getting museums or archives to actually answer letters or emails, let alone release information.

Being given permission to photograph and measure the cockpit of the RAF museums Tempest took several months of negotiations and a ten thousand mile round trip.

How easy is it going to be for a Russian dev team to gather info about obscure French aircraft built in relatively few numbers over eighty years ago.

Also, if I recall correctly there exists with Team Fusion a gentleman’s agreement not to step on each other’s toes.

The Team are going to have to wait for TFS to go belly up before they can model this area in this time frame.

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Cybermat47
4 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

How easy is it going to be for a Russian dev team to gather info about obscure French aircraft built in relatively few numbers over eighty years ago.

 

It looks like there are surviving MS.406s in places like France and Switzerland, but like you say, actually getting access to them is another matter (and one Allied fighter isn't going to be enough to make a full expansion out of).

 

4 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

Also, if I recall correctly there exists with Team Fusion a gentleman’s agreement not to step on each other’s toes.

 

Well, our Channel map covers Dunkerque, the Somme, and Normandy, so I don't think a GBS expansion set somewhere like Sedan would step on our toes that much. It's like how both games have the Bf-109 E-7, Spitfire Mk.Vb, Hurricane Mk.II, and He-111 H-6, but don't step on each other's toes because they're used on different maps (at least in campaigns and other singleplayer content), or how both games have a channel map, but there's not much stepping on toes because one is set c.1940 and the other is set c.1944, with all the beach fortifications.

Edited by [Pb]Cybermat47
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jeanba
5 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

How easy is it going to be for a Russian dev team to gather info about obscure French aircraft built in relatively few numbers over eighty years ago.

Also, if I recall correctly there exists with Team Fusion a gentleman’s agreement not to step on each other’s toes.

The Team are going to have to wait for TFS to go belly up before they can model this area in this time frame.

For the D520, the Morane 406, the Bloch 152 and the Breguet 693, factory plans are available quite easily in french archives as well as test reports

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DD_Arthur
25 minutes ago, jeanba said:

factory plans are available quite easily in french archives as well as test reports

 

This sounds great in theory but in the actuality?

I wonder...

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Eisenfaustus
9 hours ago, =AW=drewm3i-VR said:

I really wouldn't be interested in France or BoB again now that we have Bodenplatte and Normandy (channel map and can do BOB scenarios with better planes). For me, it is Pacific or bust. We have too much eastern front also. I have played so many BoB and BoF scenarios over the years in 1946 and CoD that it would be redundant.

Each to his own of course - but I don't get your arguement: because there exist mods for 1946 that let you play BoF you not interested in it but need pacific in spite there being an actual full blown expansion for '46 with that theme?

 

And COD doesn't really feature the battle for Sedan in any way - except D520 there are no french planes und the D520 played a minor role at best during BoF...

 

Of course if you're more interested in the pacific good for you - but pretending the BoF has been done to death and thusly there should finally be pacific doesn't make sense...

 

The battle of france (outside maybe mods) has never been done as an air combat simulator - the pacific has. Although not to modern IL2 standarts of course...

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jeanba
2 hours ago, DD_Arthur said:

 

This sounds great in theory but in the actuality?

I wonder...

What do you mean ?

The D520 archive are available at the "archives du conseil departementale de la Haute Garonne" (15 km away from where I live)

For the MB152, you have them from the armée de l'air archive (and some where reproduced in a publicly available book)

...

Edited by jeanba
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ww2fighter20

Maybe Battle of France could be done as an tank crew release, generally tank combat in France 1940 is more well known compared to air combat.

This is ofcourse if Tank Crew sells well enough for several releases since late war scenarios (Battle of Bulge/Normandy/Eastern Front 1944-1945) are more likely to appear for tank crew.

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NO.20_Krispy_Duck

Intersting idea. I'd buy it. I think the MS406 and the export model Hawk the French received would have to play a strong role and should be integral. The Hurricane would be integral as well. I see the Spit I and D.520 as "collector" options where they're nice to have but not core planes.

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Enceladus

If the Dornier 17 can be flyable in a Battle of France installment, then I'm all in.

Edited by Enceladus
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=AW=drewm3i-VR
13 hours ago, Eisenfaustus said:

Each to his own of course - but I don't get your arguement: because there exist mods for 1946 that let you play BoF you not interested in it but need pacific in spite there being an actual full blown expansion for '46 with that theme?

 

And COD doesn't really feature the battle for Sedan in any way - except D520 there are no french planes und the D520 played a minor role at best during BoF...

 

Of course if you're more interested in the pacific good for you - but pretending the BoF has been done to death and thusly there should finally be pacific doesn't make sense...

 

The battle of france (outside maybe mods) has never been done as an air combat simulator - the pacific has. Although not to modern IL2 standarts of course...

I guess I don't have any interest in flying 1939-40 planes with two speed or fixed pitch propellers when I am used to 1942-45 planes. For the pacific I would prefer Guadalcanal which would be a 1942-1943 plane set. BoF is neat, but there is no way it happens or should happen with Bodenplatte, Normandy, and CoD existing (which all feature parts of france).

Edited by =AW=drewm3i-VR
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[=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther

Vive la France! 

 

With more french planes, I will refresh and buy the minute it is announced. 

 

I love how people say "it needs (this plane) to sell." Nonsense, most on here (of what I have read) would buy just about anything that flies. 

 

 

Edited by [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther
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BraveSirRobin
21 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I love how people say "it needs (this plane) to sell." Nonsense, most on here would buy just about anything that flies. 

 

 

If the only customers are "most on here" then it will cost about $1000 per copy.  

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[=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther
18 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

If the only customers are "most on here" then it will cost about $1000 per copy.  

 

Do you have statistics? 

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BraveSirRobin
7 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

Do you have statistics? 


Yeah, after 2 early war Eastern Front games they realized that they needed a game with iconic late war aircraft or they were not going to survive as a developer.   That did so well that they decided to do it again.  You need more than just the people in this forum to buy a game to survive.

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[=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther
14 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Yeah, after 2 early war Eastern Front games they realized that they needed a game with iconic late war aircraft or they were not going to survive as a developer.   That did so well that they decided to do it again.  You need more than just the people in this forum to buy a game to survive.

So the answer is no. 

BTW, the argument made was that no one would buy a module containing mostly French aircraft. It had nothing to do with early vs late war aircraft. 

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PatrickAWlson

I agree with @BraveSirRobin on this one, which is why I included that argument in the OP.  The core of this companies hard core followers will want unusual plane sets, but the product has to have appeal beyond that core.  IMHO the proposed plane set offers both iconic aircraft (Hurricane, Spitfire, 109, 110, Ju87) as well as some lesser known aircraft.  If you are a purist then a Spitfire is not the best plane for a BoF scenario.  If you are a careerist (me) it absolutely is, not so much for BoF but for slightly later.  If you like planes but are not that deep into it then the Spitfire Mk I is probably THE plane that you will be familiar with.  

 

Anyhow, Normandy is a year away.  We'll see what comes next when the time comes.  I want the conversation to be about pros and cons (arguments against the Spit are just as interesting as arguments for) and not get into an opinion driven shouting match where the other guy is obviously an idiot since he disagrees.  There are lots of interesting scenarios (BoF, Italy, Guadalcanal, Bagration, and lots of others) that could be done.  @Eisenfaustus presented the start of this in the HS123 thread and it got me thinking, so I posted.  The more that I think about it the more I want BoF, but that is just one person's opinion.

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von_Tom
6 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

... (arguments against the Spit are just as interesting as arguments for) and not get into an opinion driven shouting match where the other guy is obviously an idiot since he disagrees...

 

No, no and no.  There are no possible arguments for excluding other Spitfire marks from any expansion no matter what plane set or theatre.  They should be included in every expansion.

 

And, anyone who disagrees with me is obviously an idiot.

 

🤪

 

von Tom

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BraveSirRobin
40 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

So the answer is no. 

BTW, the argument made was that no one would buy a module containing mostly French aircraft. It had nothing to do with early vs late war aircraft. 


Not enough people will buy the module unless there are popular iconic aircraft.  The Spitfire is iconic.  None of the French aircraft are iconic.  I get that you need some French aircraft for the Battle of France.  But you absolutely need the Spitfire or you will be looking for a new job.

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Eisenfaustus
1 hour ago, PatrickAWlson said:

The more that I think about it the more I want BoF, but that is just one person's opinion.

There are propably a little more of us - unfortunately you are most likely right about the marketability of BoF. But I like to dream anyways :)

 

And yes - a Spit mk I would certainly improve that aspect wether they actually flew over Sedan or not. Maybe like the 190 that never flew over Stalingrad in reality :)

 

but hawk, hurri and ms406 would also be necessary for BoF... So many cool planes :)

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DBFlyguy

I personally would pull the trigger on a Battle of France pre-order way quicker than I will ever on any of the ground unit stuff...

 

None of us who aren't devs know how decisions are actually made on what will be the next release.  As far as "iconic" aircraft go...well, if your measuring stick is a Spitfire, Mustang or 109... nothing else will be considered "iconic" ... We'll just have to see what the announcement is once Normandy is final

 

 

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[=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther
8 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Not enough people will buy the module unless there are popular iconic aircraft.  The Spitfire is iconic.  None of the French aircraft are iconic.  I get that you need some French aircraft for the Battle of France.  But you absolutely need the Spitfire or you will be looking for a new job.

 

I don't think this is true. Some people act as if this game is mainstream. It isn't. This game attracts a specific type of player/ enthusiast and so I am not buying that they won't buy.

 

Battle of France has other problems. It lasted only 6 weeks and that's includes the second phase when the French were severely outnumbered and the British had already tucked tail and ran already. The Career would be short lived. Ultimately the planset would depend on what area of the map s covered and which unit is represented. 

 

Some time ago I looked into the french forces and I created a data table on the aircraft they had in inventory. 

 

MB 152 - CG II/1 - CG II/1 - CG 1/8 -CG II/8 - CG II/9

MS 406 - CG 1/2 - CG 11/2 - CG III/2 - CG I/6 - CG III/7 - CG I/9

D 520 - CG I/3

MS 406/ D 520 - CG III/3 - II/6 (inc MB 152) - CG III/6 - CG II/7

H 75 - CG I/4 - CG II/4 - CG I/5 - CG II/5 

 

Other french aircraft of note

Breguet 693

Lioré & Olivier LéO

 

Probably should have the MS 406 as part of the five. It was the largest number of any type on the French "air force." The D 520 as a premium plane (it was more numerous than the B 152 and definitely the MB 151) and the H 75 could be a collector plane. 

 

Another problem is the career. if you choose a British career there would be a large gap between the end of the BOF and BOB. If French, it would be over unless you transfer to some of the french forces that became British squadrons. The Russian Group (Normandie-Niemen is not represented on the eastern front modules. This is why I would love to see a BOF, and Italian campaign that bridges Normandy and Kuban would most likely be better. That being said, who would not want to know how the french would have done had they had the numbers and the deposition to take on the Germans in 1940. 

 

 

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BraveSirRobin
10 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I don't think this is true.

 

 

 

It's absolutely true.  That's why they went to the Bodenplatte planeset.  They needed better sales in order to survive.  BoF with a bunch of planes that only historians know or care about would be a financial disaster.  And the developer is well aware of that.

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[=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther
27 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

It's absolutely true.  That's why they went to the Bodenplatte planeset.  They needed better sales in order to survive.  BoF with a bunch of planes that only historians know or care about would be a financial disaster.  And the developer is well aware of that.

 

Kuban was the third module and the third on the eastern front. I am not sure you cannot discount that the slump had something to do with eastern Front "fatigue." 

 

There isn't a module they would do that would be without risk. The Battle of Norway, Battle of Greece (or Crete), Battle of "Italy" or Sicily etc... are all fringe scenarios. The Italian campaign is the only one listed that Germany losses. Up until now, every single scenario involves the ultimate defeat of Germany. 

 

 

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BraveSirRobin
23 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

Up until now, every single scenario involves the ultimate defeat of Germany. 

 

 

 

Spoiler alert.  That's how this war ends.

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Cybermat47
21 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

Up until now, every single scenario involves the ultimate defeat of Germany. 


Every future scenario will invariably involve Germany’s ultimate defeat, unless we get scenarios outside of WWI and WWII.

 

 

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[=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther
16 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:


Every future scenario will invariably involve Germany’s ultimate defeat, unless we get scenarios outside of WWI and WWII.

 

 

 

I meant within the "battle" itself, especially Moscow in which Germans had initial success. So you are incorrect battle of France, Norway and Greece did not lead to eventual defeat. Those operation ended in success. 

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BraveSirRobin
36 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I meant within the "battle" itself, especially Moscow in which Germans had initial success. So you are incorrect battle of France, Norway and Greece did not lead to eventual defeat. Those operation ended in success. 

 

Why would that possibly matter?

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Eisenfaustus
3 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

It lasted only 6 weeks

Unless you include the phoney war 😄

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ww2fighter20

While it's important to have famous aircraft like the spitfire included to increase sales, it's also important to look at gameplay.

None of the aircraft currently released except the Ju52 can be used in france 1940, so the 10 aircraft + Ju52 are the only aircraft you can meet and fight against in battle.

How many of the allied aircraft types in the suggested list were used on the airfields in the Sedan area?

If you end up with only 2/3 allied types having airfields on the map you get very limited gameplay.

If you need to increase mapsize for more airfields you need to make more profit since maps are very expensive to be built, this has been mentioned by Jason recently.

 

Another issue is gameplay options with aircraft included in the list.

French fighters generally couldn't or didn't carry bombs, neither did the Spitfire I, that would leave the Hurricane and the Blenheim as the only aircraft capable of carrying bombs.

For this reason an aircraft like the Potez 63.11/Brequet 691-693 or Fairey Battle might have to be included so we have more ground attack options for the allies, this is not an issue with the german lineup.

 

Edited by ww2fighter20
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