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Ammo Explosions


dotDeutschland

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dotDeutschland

Does IL-2 Great Battles model Ammo Explosions for Planes ?
I once watched a Video of a German WW2 Pilot who flew with the Africa Korps Talking about how he Witnessed his Wingman getting jumped by a Hurricane and saw his Wing get blown off after a Round must've hit his MG/FF 20mm Ammo drum in his wing (cant find the video rn) which made it Explode.
He also Recounted how he later on a different Sortie got jumped by a Hurricane himself and out of Fear that the same might happen to him just fired off all his 20mm ammo when he saw that the Hurricane got on his six and then later ditched and Actually saw that Bullets went straight through the ammo drum when he waited the Mandatory 15 minutes post ditch and Inspected his Aircraft.

I wonder if the same is Modeled in IL-2, does anyone have any Personal Experiences experiences in IL-2 on that topic ?

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ethelward
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does anyone have any Personal Experiences experiences in IL-2 on that topic ?

 

Yes, both on the giving and receiving ends.

 

It's a tricky shot to make, but it's not unheard of e.g. Il-2's or 190's having one of their wings blown off by an ammo magazine detonation.

 

Edit: grammar

Edited by ethelward
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Ram399

Ammo and gas tank explosions do happen, they look something like this:

Spoiler

20200504000738_1.thumb.jpg.85c03eeb359a7a2421b38c12b638a7ab.jpg20200504000806_1.thumb.jpg.3fd5664f0696d549ac113603a370520c.jpg



My personal favorite is probably this IL-2 which had a lucky MG round detonate one of the rockets slung under its wing, to disastrous results.
 

20200102174116_1.thumb.jpg.4fc84ad133e392198a25371e4fd5a250.jpg

Despite my best efforts, I have yet to manage a repeat of this shot.

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pocketshaver

lots of odd explosions... very odd.  oddest one that happened to me, i hit propellor hub to rudder of c47a... my plane simply exploded without causing damage to that C47.

 

Ive been noticing that my 20mm shells only have explosions/black puffs if they hit a control surface on the wing, any other portion of the wing its either 1) tiny debris flies off or 2) no visual event happens.

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INVADER_WARHAWK

You can try it out to see if ammo explosions are implemented by taking a plane with tail gunner in a quick mission starting on ground with more than one friendly planes, and then shoot at them.

So far I haven't seen any ammo explosions

Edited by INVADER_WARHAWK
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oc2209
3 hours ago, pocketshaver said:

Ive been noticing that my 20mm shells only have explosions/black puffs if they hit a control surface on the wing, any other portion of the wing its either 1) tiny debris flies off or 2) no visual event happens.

 

Are you 100% sure the times when it appears there's no effect, it's not actually an AP round cleanly punching through the wing? That's always what I assumed the difference was between whether there's a large puff of smoke from cannon strikes, or not. I think all 20mm for every nation, aside from the special load options in La-5s, alternates between AP and HE in each ammo belt.

 

In any case, regarding the OP, I never see random explosions that aren't attributable to gas tanks. I cause explosions pretty rarely in my targets, in general. Which is a good thing, as I often get too close. I typically aim to kill the pilot, which might explain the infrequency of explosions.

 

The oddest thing I've seen in terms of gun/ammo damage is when an IL-2 crashed and cartwheeled nose over tail across the ground before coming to a stop. As the nose first struck the ground, its wing cannon both went off. I'm guessing from the jolt.

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pocketshaver

Belt loadout....  when i look at the little icons in the weapons loadout screen at startup, i never see anything in the icon showing two types of ammunition. Always the same color...

 

Ive been getting up close with in 100 yards and opening up, the black puffs are always on the aeileron flap, never the actual non moving wing components. 

 

Also, 20mm will make a puff on the sides of C47a's.  So will the big 30mm in the p-39.  However another oddity i realized last night is that the first shell impacts on the fueselage will make the side door come flying off.  I was assuming that was a piece of engine cowling, but i realized the doorhandle and little window on it.

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CUJO_1970

Sometimes hitting a rocket slung under an Il-2 will not make it explode, but will cause it to fire off. I was amazed the first time I saw that happen. 

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Avimimus
12 hours ago, pocketshaver said:

Ive been noticing that my 20mm shells only have explosions/black puffs if they hit a control surface on the wing, any other portion of the wing its either 1) tiny debris flies off or 2) no visual event happens.

 

That might be because the control surfaces are made out of a different material (common historically - on a lot of planes)... hence you'd get a different effect (if I recall correctly there are different impact effects for fabric, wood, and metal)...

 

 

2 minutes ago, CUJO_1970 said:

Sometimes hitting a rocket slung under an Il-2 will not make it explode, but will cause it to fire off. I was amazed the first time I saw that happen. 

 

Really? Wow!

 

This simulation is surprisingly deep - and often in ways which are unadvertised.

 

I remember mentioning how it would be good to have the RP-3 25lb AP rocket be able to arc underwater to hit a ship (which was a historical tactic)... on an off chance I decided to check it in game - and surprisingly, it was the only rocket that was able to to it - but it was modelled! I was blown away.

Edited by Avimimus
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Having recently popped back into the IL-2 world after 14 years away, I've been amazed by how well different 20mm rounds have been modeled visually and damage-wise in the latest IL-2. So much so, I had to do some research into what I was seeing. Amazing when a sim is THAT deep.

 

The ShVAK 20mm rounds seem to go deeper and do more AP-like airframe/pilot damage when you point them at a 109. You just get the puff of black smoke on impact.

 

MG-151-20 is the much more "explody" round than the ShVAK. German philosophy was to pack more explosive in. The result was a more explosive, but more "superficial" round. Chuck Yeager pointed out in an interview that the more of superficial damage from the German 20mm just wasn't as effective against American fighters. You really notice exactly this when the P-40's first show up in BoM, and it feels like it takes *forever* to bring them down with the single 20mm in a 109F.

 

-Ryan

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pocketshaver

The german 20mm outclass the 15mm and the 8mm machine guns to the point its not funny. 

 

However, explosions happen at the oddest time and its creepy watching a C47a simply explode like a flak burst.

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oc2209
4 hours ago, RyanR said:

The ShVAK 20mm rounds seem to go deeper and do more AP-like airframe/pilot damage when you point them at a 109. You just get the puff of black smoke on impact.

 

MG-151-20 is the much more "explody" round than the ShVAK. German philosophy was to pack more explosive in. The result was a more explosive, but more "superficial" round.

 

This summary feels quite accurate, in my rather substantial experience with both rounds.

 

As a Yak pilot, I kill enemy pilots routinely. Whereas in a 109, I'm more likely to set fires or do enough surface damage that the target loses control and crashes. During my recent Stalingrad career, I was facing a lot of La-5s towards the end, and I frustratingly often gave them a severe oil leak (attacking from behind) without killing the pilot. Since the distances between frontline airfields are so small in Stalingrad, they'd most often make it back to their base just as their engines quit.

 

The worst drawback to the German 20mm explosive effect is that I will break too early (breaking quickly after firing is what I do to avoid target fixation) after seeing multiple strikes, assuming my target is crippled beyond salvation. That results in a lot of damaged or belly-landed planes that I don't get kill credits for. Tragic, I know.

 

Now, once you get the 30mm, targets are much less likely to escape after 2-3 hits. The drawback there is how giant chunks of the target fly back at you. I've already shot myself down (bent prop) once, and I felt the jolt when my wing was struck by a piece of a P-47's rudder (but my wing wasn't noticeably damaged) in just a few sorties of my latest Bodenplatte career.

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14 minutes ago, oc2209 said:

 

This summary feels quite accurate, in my rather substantial experience with both rounds.

 

As a Yak pilot, I kill enemy pilots routinely. Whereas in a 109, I'm more likely to set fires or do enough surface damage that the target loses control and crashes. During my recent Stalingrad career, I was facing a lot of La-5s towards the end, and I frustratingly often gave them a severe oil leak (attacking from behind) without killing the pilot. Since the distances between frontline airfields are so small in Stalingrad, they'd most often make it back to their base just as their engines quit.

 

The worst drawback to the German 20mm explosive effect is that I will break too early (breaking quickly after firing is what I do to avoid target fixation) after seeing multiple strikes, assuming my target is crippled beyond salvation. That results in a lot of damaged or belly-landed planes that I don't get kill credits for. Tragic, I know.

 

Now, once you get the 30mm, targets are much less likely to escape after 2-3 hits. The drawback there is how giant chunks of the target fly back at you. I've already shot myself down (bent prop) once, and I felt the jolt when my wing was struck by a piece of a P-47's rudder (but my wing wasn't noticeably damaged) in just a few sorties of my latest Bodenplatte career.

 

 

I know what you mean. I did a Stalingrad campaign for the Luftwaffe, and would break off once a bunch of rounds landed with the 109, they'd find a way home. Though with the 190A-3, a good burst at least means they're out of the fight.

 

I'm following up with VVS campaign with Yak's and La-5's. Instead of surprise non-kills, you get a lot of surprise kills after you have to break off of what appears to be a diving 109.... but they spiral in. I feel like I see a lot more engine fires with the ShVAK.

 

I've yet to get to a Kuban or Bodenplatte career. I'm really curious to try the P-39L in a campaign. This plane really seems to "sing" with the flight model.

 

-Ryan

 

 

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pocketshaver
2 hours ago, RyanR said:

 

 

I know what you mean. I did a Stalingrad campaign for the Luftwaffe, and would break off once a bunch of rounds landed with the 109, they'd find a way home. Though with the 190A-3, a good burst at least means they're out of the fight.

 

I'm following up with VVS campaign with Yak's and La-5's. Instead of surprise non-kills, you get a lot of surprise kills after you have to break off of what appears to be a diving 109.... but they spiral in. I feel like I see a lot more engine fires with the ShVAK.

 

I've yet to get to a Kuban or Bodenplatte career. I'm really curious to try the P-39L in a campaign. This plane really seems to "sing" with the flight model.

 

-Ryan

 

 

The P39 isnt exactly spectacular.   Havent figured out the convergence for the the 30mm cannon, but it well, has a trajectory reminiscent of a toddler throwing a balloon...    drops like a rock.  And when you do hit something..... its not exactly spectacular in effect.  

And when you DO hit, as in with any other cannon, you WILL get major chucks of rudder and aeleron flying back at you.  And the wing mounted machine guns suck.

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oc2209

Ooh, I think I witnessed an ammo explosion:

 

20210215214719_1.thumb.jpg.8c2e0f95d3c9708a03b8c5080846b8e6.jpg

 

This was one of my AI wingmen. I saw the events unfold from quite a distance, but I did see a small explosion; not large enough to be the fuel tank. Also, as you can see, there's no burning. It looks like the cannon magazine in the wing root was hit, if I had to guess.

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Art-J

^ Nah, there is no ammo (or fuel for that matter) in the wings of late variants of 109. Unless this one carried gunpods - but where's the right one then?

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Yogiflight
53 minutes ago, Art-J said:

^ Nah, there is no ammo (or fuel for that matter) in the wings of late variants of 109.

The ammo for the 20mm engine gun is placed in the left wing root, not in the fuselage. But if this ammo would have been hit, it would not only be the outer wing missing.

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vonGraf
3 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The ammo for the 20mm engine gun is placed in the left wing root, not in the fuselage. But if this ammo would have been hit, it would not only be the outer wing missing.

 

Just realized that I didn't know that. Thanks. 😁

But where else; near the gun there's possibly not enough space and there have been issues with high temperature in the past/early 109 versions.

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On 2/14/2021 at 8:16 PM, pocketshaver said:

The P39 isnt exactly spectacular.   Havent figured out the convergence for the the 30mm cannon, but it well, has a trajectory reminiscent of a toddler throwing a balloon...    drops like a rock.  And when you do hit something..... its not exactly spectacular in effect.  

And when you DO hit, as in with any other cannon, you WILL get major chucks of rudder and aeleron flying back at you.  And the wing mounted machine guns suck.

 

Thanks for the impressions! The P39 has a reputation for being a real dog, but it does feels more lively here in a Quick Mission than it has in previous sims I've flown it in. It definitely gets more peppy with the .30's removed, which is how I read the VVS liked to fly them. When I make it to a Kuban campaign, I'm sure my initial impressions will probably echo yours. The 109G's tend to reshape opinions pretty quick. :)

 

Thanks again!

 

-Ryan

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oc2209
13 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

The ammo for the 20mm engine gun is placed in the left wing root, not in the fuselage. But if this ammo would have been hit, it would not only be the outer wing missing.

 

I did wonder why the detachment didn't occur at the root; but nevertheless, it's the only explanation. Had I not seen the explosion with the black puff of smoke, I'd assume it was a collision that caused the damage.

 

Also note the left horizontal stabilizer is blown off. Meaning the origin of the explosion was on the left side of the plane, not centerline; centerline being the only other possible origin point of an explosion in a 109.

 

Also remember that the damage model isn't perfectly visually translated. It's possible the stub of wing that's left is 90% destroyed in terms of how the flight model is being calculated.

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56RAF_Roblex

Here is a very short video showing a P39 hitting the ammo in the wing of a 109. NOTE:  I was not firing the 37mm cannon.

 

https://youtu.be/v8PTPCa6e_g

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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pocketshaver
14 hours ago, RyanR said:

 

Thanks for the impressions! The P39 has a reputation for being a real dog, but it does feels more lively here in a Quick Mission than it has in previous sims I've flown it in. It definitely gets more peppy with the .30's removed, which is how I read the VVS liked to fly them. When I make it to a Kuban campaign, I'm sure my initial impressions will probably echo yours. The 109G's tend to reshape opinions pretty quick. :)

 

Thanks again!

 

-Ryan

The P39 isnt a bad flyer at all really, but when it comes to pounding on the enemy id much rather have the 202 wrapping its loving arms around me.

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56RAF_Roblex
On 2/15/2021 at 1:16 AM, pocketshaver said:

....  

And when you DO hit, as in with any other cannon, you WILL get major chucks of rudder and aeleron flying back at you.  ...

 

Funny you should say that 😄  Two successive missions.

 

Stopping the raiders but paying a price: roblex56raf — LiveJournal

 

A second wave of incoming raiders: roblex56raf — LiveJournal

Edited by 56RAF_Roblex
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pocketshaver
11 hours ago, 56RAF_Roblex said:

ive picked up this habit of instinctively rolling and pulling back on the stick when i see the black puffs form.  I also like to do short range shooting so prevention counts.

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Alexmarine
On 2/16/2021 at 4:21 PM, RyanR said:

 It definitely gets more peppy with the .30's removed, which is how I read the VVS liked to fly them. 

 

This is a myth that has been incorrectly assigned to the P-39 with the .30s guns in the wings. The "VVS took the wings guns out" talk was actually directed towards late P-39 (and 63) models that replaced the internal .30s (which actually don't have any serious disadvantage on the plane) with 0.50s housed in gunpods (which actually incurr in an hefty drag and weight penalty). P-39 with .30cals were flew as they were without much issues untill replaced by later models without touching the wing guns.

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dotDeutschland
On 2/16/2021 at 11:15 PM, 56RAF_Roblex said:

Here is a very short video showing a P39 hitting the ammo in the wing of a 109. NOTE:  I was not firing the 37mm cannon.

 

https://youtu.be/v8PTPCa6e_g

Yea its quite obvious in that Vid since the 109 had nothing in the wings, except for the ammo that is installed with the Gunpods.
Actually quite neat that thats Modeled, thanks for Clearing that up for me! o7

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migmadmarine

Didn't get a recording, but last night I decided to have a go at shooting Il-2s down with american fighters (went fairly well, was able to down three before running out of ammo generally with the 51 and 47) I did detonate a rocket on the wing of one of them. In a subsequent run I also had of of the target aircraft launch a single rocket. In sure if this was the motor being set off by a round, or the pilot starting to dump them and being killed after the first. They usually dump rockets in a single volly however.

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pocketshaver

Not too keen on using rockets for air engagements,   i have had one successful attempt at hitting a plane, but the entire rudder assembly bounced off my propellor,,,, 

 

 

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Just watched a rocket fly off an IL-2 after I hit it with a 109's 20mm in a Kuban career. Scary! ;)

 

I switched back to my German career after finishing my VVS Stalingrad career. I did a couple A-20 missions with that career, and watched an attacking 109 knock an external bomb of a wingman;s A-20 wing.

 

Pretty neat. Pretty frightening.

 

-Ryan

 

 

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migmadmarine

I've been hit by a jettisoned bomb from an A-20 once, passed too close below them, felt my tail get shoved downward. Fortunately I was close enough that it hadn't fuzed yet. 

Edited by migmadmarine
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Y-29.Silky

A lot of people are confusing the German's 20mm acting as artillery shells, I've ripped A-20's in half, it doesn't mean the ammo exploded. I personally have never seen the ammo detonate from either side.

Edited by Y-29.Silky
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Ram399

I've got somewhat of an odd explosion as well.
This A-20 was violently gunned down by one of my AI wingmen in a Bf-109 G4 (I can be seen observing from the 109 just behind him).
A few moments into his firing run there was just a massive explosion which seemed to emanate out from the fuselage of the A-20.
By this point I believe they had dropped any bombs that were on board so I assumed it was some kind of fuel explosion but it was certainly more violent and extensive than most of the fuel tank hits I've seen. 
Maybe some of the gunner magazines got set off?
I doubt that the powder charge for some .50 cals would be capable of such a thing but something definitely went bad.
Whatever the case it certainly looked cool.

 

Spoiler

20200603155312_1.thumb.jpg.3cddbe4bfcd4f0d37075ade417a0a80f.jpg
20200603155521_1.thumb.jpg.e7ee002509d16e889a0a3c1bbe84026b.jpg20200603155553_1.thumb.jpg.00becc85d321bee5aca4cbfe9ad89ee2.jpg20200603155611_1.thumb.jpg.83fea11c5ea79d0bdea2d361e5fd04e1.jpg

 

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Mollotin

once saw a pe 2 heading towards me about 500m-800m higher. i can see he has bombs still on.  i pulled up and fired all my Fw190 guns. Had to lead so much that pe2 was not visible.  Suddenly a huge fireball emerges and pe 2 goes down in flames. I did fire 1-2 second burst.

 

either fuel or bomb explosion.

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LukeFF
20 hours ago, Ram399 said:

I've got somewhat of an odd explosion as well.
This A-20 was violently gunned down by one of my AI wingmen in a Bf-109 G4 (I can be seen observing from the 109 just behind him).
A few moments into his firing run there was just a massive explosion which seemed to emanate out from the fuselage of the A-20.
By this point I believe they had dropped any bombs that were on board so I assumed it was some kind of fuel explosion but it was certainly more violent and extensive than most of the fuel tank hits I've seen. 
Maybe some of the gunner magazines got set off?
I doubt that the powder charge for some .50 cals would be capable of such a thing but something definitely went bad.
Whatever the case it certainly looked cool.

 

  Hide contents

20200603155312_1.thumb.jpg.3cddbe4bfcd4f0d37075ade417a0a80f.jpg
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Not overly surprising, since the A-20B didn't carry a lot of armor.

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