Jump to content

Increase boundary/moveable area for head in VR


Recommended Posts

In many aircraft but not all, there is a very tight area that you are able to move your head around inside without colliding with invisible boundaries. For example, this makes it harder than it needs to be to check your six. This is because you cannot move your head as close to the canopy as you would be able to in real-life to peer around a headrest/fuselage. Leaning forward to scrutinize a gauge or get close to a gunsight is also impossible in many aircraft without hitting the aforementioned invisible boundary.

 

This is something that has always bugged me, but I've generally just put up with it. I think a lot of us in the VR community feel the same. I feel like it should not be that hard to adjust the head boundaries by redrawing them to match the graphical sides of the cockpit/canopy. What we have right now feels like a somewhat arbitrary space that is set inside. Our pupils are generally only 1.5 inches (3.8cm) from the sides of our head. Allowing the camera to get this close to objects in the cockpit seems reasonable. 

 

I wanted to put this here with the hope there will be support from the VR community and in the hope that the devs consider addressing this in future updates. 

 

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
  • Thanks 2
  • Upvote 8
Link to post
Share on other sites

"I feel like it should not be that hard to adjust the head boundaries by redrawing them to match the graphical sides of the cockpit/canopy"

 

I don't think any of us end users know just what methods they are using to get to the limits they have, so our end user "Feeliings" don't really make a hoot of difference on how actually easy or not any part the programing is. I think it may have been said that there were some technology limits on their doing that or to do with the way they do that. I'm not exactly positive on that as what I'm thinking of was quite a while back.

 

It has seemed some better than it was originally but that may be due to my not have flown some of the planes I used to as much -- I don't want to try to say for sure as that would just my how I felt about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In Spifire I can't even turn my head to the side without bumping in the invisible wall, dispite the partial "bubble" canopy. Also upward, forward and downward movement is way to restricted. It's very unpleasant and immersive. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Skipper said:

In Spifire I can't even turn my head to the side without bumping in the invisible wall, dispite the partial "bubble" canopy. Also upward, forward and downward movement is way to restricted. It's very unpleasant and immersive. 

 

Indeed and that is why I never play the game with that restriction enabled. But I do singe player only.

It is crazy to have that as a forced restriction for multiplayer, cause folks are afraid of cheaters that might do some magic wing walking.

That does not happen in VR, just trying to do something like that would be quite the cluster.

 

Yet there are Track IR gamers that can spin their head around like the scene in The Exorcist. Only thing missing is spitting out the green pea soup.

And now with modders coming out with the same for VR I guess those players that want it can as well. Not me.

I am very glad I do not participate in multiplayer.

Edited by dburne
  • Like 4
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, HansBlitz said:

"I feel like it should not be that hard to adjust the head boundaries by redrawing them to match the graphical sides of the cockpit/canopy"

 

I don't think any of us end users know just what methods they are using to get to the limits they have, so our end user "Feeliings" don't really make a hoot of difference on how actually easy or not any part the programing is. I think it may have been said that there were some technology limits on their doing that or to do with the way they do that. I'm not exactly positive on that as what I'm thinking of was quite a while back.

 

It has seemed some better than it was originally but that may be due to my not have flown some of the planes I used to as much -- I don't want to try to say for sure as that would just my how I felt about it.

 

Certainly depending on how it is implemented, this may be easier said than done. Some aircraft are better than others in this way, and I feel that at the minimum, bringing the aircraft that suffer most from this inline with the rest, would be a start. 

 

That said, many other VR games seem to be able to handle the movement space and collision with objects with more precision and I've got to think there is a way. 

 

I realize this is mostly a problem in multiplayer as the head boundary setting can be turned off by the user otherwise. However, I think even single player pilots may enjoy having it turned on if the free-movement dimensions more exactly fit the internal size of the cockpit.

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

 

Certainly depending on how it is implemented, this may be easier said than done. Some aircraft are better than others in this way, and I feel that at the minimum, bringing the aircraft that suffer most from this inline with the rest, would be a start. 

 

That said, many other VR games seem to be able to handle the movement space and collision with objects with more precision and I've got to think there is a way. 

 

I realize this is mostly a problem in multiplayer as the head boundary setting can be turned off by the user otherwise. However, I think even single player pilots may enjoy having it turned on if the free-movement dimensions more exactly fit the internal size of the cockpit.


I very soon became used to the non-restriction limits, the colour of the view changes when your VR eyes pass through the plexiglass. I won't even do it after parking on the ground, I wait until the canopy is open. OCD lollness. 🤭

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's necessary that this gets fixed.

 

We may need to make a list of the aircraft which are affected. It is mostly older planes from Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Moscow as far as I know. Even within the same "type" - a Bf-109 K-4 has more room for the head than a Bf-109 F-4. 

 

Shall we make a list of those affected?

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

This annoyed at first when I changed from TIR to VR and at first I could not understand it and it took me buy surprise.  However, once I carefully adjusted my pilot head position for optimum position, then I soon learnt how to get used to it and it made me appreciate how different the amount of room to move was in different aircraft and the restrictions for real life pilots.  I realised that with track TIR and no seat belt to hold me in place that I was able to move around in my seat a lot more than the real pilots and a PC pilot with VR (with in-game restriction on).

 

I had to learn a few new tricks to turn my head and body whilst keeping my lower back and shoulders against my seat more so that I did not bump into the cockpit canopy with my head and still check around the sky.  I watched videos of real pilots and noticed how they sometimes use their hand and/or arm to brace or pull on something solid in the cockpit to help them twist.  So now I sometimes use my left hand on the front of my desk to help my body twist by pulling or pushing on my desk when in VR.  By twisting my body more and not just throwing my head about, I find I am able to not come into contact with the canopy.

 

For each aircraft it can be a long and laborious task to adjust the in-game pilot head position for optimum use, particularly as there can be the use of the gunsight and mirror to consider as well.  Also, it seems to me that not all aircraft have the same parameters set in terms of distance from an object before the head makes contact with it.  For instance, with some aircraft I seem to be able to move my head nearer to the gunsight or some other object before contact occurs; I would have thought that this should be the same for all aircraft but it does not appear to be the case.

 

Overall, I think the VR head restriction is a good aid to immersion, as it causes me to not go beyond real life movements in the cockpit, otherwise it breaks my immersion by moving everything around me, which I don't like at all.  So, if I don't want to burst my immersion bubble then I must keep my head movements more realistic, which is good IMHO.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited by ACG_Talisman
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ACG_Talisman said:

So now I sometimes use my left hand on the front of my desk to help my body twist by pulling or pushing on my desk when in VR.  By twisting my body more and not just throwing my head about, I find I am able to not come into contact with the canopy.

 

Since I'm on an office chair I usually brace my left hand against my left knee whenever I need to twist all the way around, flying in a loose coordinated zig-zag pattern helps reduce the need of such contortions when travelling. What I'd like for this feature would be a louder *bump* sound when you tap the canopy, there is such a sound if you knock against the (virtual) headrest which is loud enough and I think there is already for the canopy but it's just really low volume.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I really like the limits as well. It bothers me far more to have my head pass through parts of the plane when the limits are turned off. I've been using the limits ever since starting to use VR mid 2017, and nearly all of that multiplayer. I also use an office chair and believe that it does help.

 

People liking this or not liking it, is like many other features in this or other programs in that there will always be some that like whatever and others that don't.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

8 hours ago, HansBlitz said:

I really like the limits as well. It bothers me far more to have my head pass through parts of the plane when the limits are turned off. I've been using the limits ever since starting to use VR mid 2017, and nearly all of that multiplayer. I also use an office chair and believe that it does help.

 

People liking this or not liking it, is like many other features in this or other programs in that there will always be some that like whatever and others that don't.

 

I have also been happily flying in VR for years now. But I still think things can be improved here. 

 

I don't really understand "really liking the limits" when they are arbitrary and unrealistic restrictions in movement in many aircraft. I understand not wanting heads to clip through the sides of the cockpit. My ask was not that they turn off the limits, it was that they refine them to be realistic. The sim-pit I fly in is mostly a 1:1 seating position with an average ww2 fighter. The chair is a low, unpadded, fiberglass bucket-seat from a dirt-track racecar. Frankly I am only able to move in this sim-pit in ways that a pilot could in a real cockpit. Yet somehow, in many aircraft, I find my head bouncing off of invisible barriers in cockpits that do not line up with real restrictions. 

 

I understand ACG_Talisman's argument that belt straps would restrict pilot movement, but it must be understood that pilots did not typically fly around with belt straps cranked to the point of complete upper body immobilization. They would be loose enough to reach forward somewhat in the cockpit and for their torso to twist. (keep in mind most gunsights have pads on them to help prevent severe head injury during rapid deceleration (crashes). The purpose of the straps was much more-so to prevent lifting off the seat and this could largely be accomplished with the lap portion of the harness. 

 

What I find on most aircraft, is that you cannot, for example, move your head sideways to the point that it will contact the side glass. This is not realistic. Further, you cannot lean forward without hitting an invisible wall far before you would contact the gunsight. Im not asking to be able to move my head to the forward corners of the canopy or up to the top. I'm asking for arbitrary limits to be adjusted to be more in-line with what is realistic.  By the way, It's not just the early planes that are most affected either. The spitfire is one of the biggest offenders. 

 

Take a look at this video of a pilot in a 109 and see if you think he could press his face to the side glass.

 

See attached the photos of my sim-pit. 

 

 

 

1sp.jpg

2sp.jpg

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
  • Like 2
  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

Clarify -- liking the limits as in using the limits set on with them as they are. That limit hasn't been ever really been any problem for me with how much I enjoy this sim. Having them off bugs the hell out of me if head pokes thru the canopy -- stopped leaving limits off do to that. I figure there is option for it being on or off and everyone can use which is best for them in single player. Yea, multiplayer servers can force on but I don't bump my head on the limits to a point of it being anything I notice or causes a negative impact on my enjoyment of my flying or my success at do so, and I do fly mainly multiplayer, so I like it fine as is. Also I know some won't agree with me.

 

Any improvements might be good but I'm not going to be upset if they stay as it currently is. There are some things that have been improved that have been nice. Overall though, I've been happy enough with things as released, that I hope the Dev focus remains on new content and any tweaks to existing things stay low priority. We all have things we may like to have some change to. It is a small Dev team and I think they do pretty good at correcting things when they can. I sure hope they don't ever get depressed by complaints users post -- some feedback is a good thing, some complaints get beat on for quite some time, even after the Dev team is aware. Sure I even see some things that hey might be nice if that was tweaked but nothing that really makes me unhappy enough to lessen my fun in this sim. If they can get to it, at some point they likely will and there still likely will be some happy and some not with any such change.

 

We could go on an on about it. It's a bit of human nature to be defensive and reply with a "see I'm right" response when someone posts something we don't agree with. We'll never have a perfect sim. I'm not saying you are wrong just that there are people who are happy with it the way it is and others that are not. I hope in the meantime, anyone not happy currently can figure out how to check their six in a manner that the limit doesn't bother them as much until any such change happens, I seem to have done so. The office chair thing helps and I also move my body some -- just suggestions - hoping people take a more of the glass is half full thing. I really have doubt I'd change anyone's mind.

 

I don't do this kind of software but develop other kinds and there are challenges of a project like this, so I may be easier to please than many are, with how things are when they are released, and am fine with whenever they get around to any improvements they make or even if they don't get to it. With some things I've worked on in the past, it would have been nice to have more involved on those things that got results like this team does. I'm not really picking on this complaint or any one person (not a someone's right/someone's wrong thing), as much as all the overall things where people want this or that thing changed (which take resources) and commented in this thread to voice what I see on all that.

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HansBlitz said:

 

We could go on an on about it. It's a bit of human nature to be defensive and reply with a "see I'm right" response when someone posts something we don't agree with. We'll never have a perfect sim. I'm not saying you are wrong just that there are people who are happy with it the way it is and others that are not. I hope in the meantime, anyone not happy currently can figure out how to check their six in a manner that the limit doesn't bother them as much until any such change happens, I seem to have done so. The office chair thing helps and I also move my body some -- just suggestions - hoping people take a more of the glass is half full thing. I really have doubt I'd change anyone's mind.

 

 

And my clarification.

I've lived with the limits up till now and will continue to do so if necessary. I think most of us that are still here are capable of dealing with the limitations they impose.

However, they are a limitation as well as a slight disadvantage. I would like to see this sim iterated on and improved and I don't think all development should be focused on making new content. Many of the most impressive changes by this dev team have been iterations on existing content. I also really have a hard time believing that there is some sort of huge difficulty to make an improvement in this specific area. Frankly, neither of us know for certain, but it can't hurt to ask. 

 

Consider it this way: most of us here have surmounted the challenges of getting VR working passably in this sim. We have gotten used to and now overlook the areas where it is deficient. This allows us to enjoy the sim for what it is in VR: a truly incredible and unmatched experience and something the devs should be proud of.  However, improving this experience over time to be even better is an achievable and worthwhile goal. Consider the players that get VR and are annoyed by the arbitrary head limits. Like many of us when they first start, they realize it's very difficult (and more so than is realistic) to check your six when you combine lower FOV in most VR headsets with the fact that you can't put your head against the glass to look around the headrest/fuselage. Little niggling issues like this can seem magnified at first when you are getting used to a new experience. It may cause players to give up on the Sim or revert back to monitor use.

 

I think many of us can agree that the immersion Great Battles provides in VR is second to none and has hooked us like nothing else. I think there is a real benefit if the team continues to work to expand this pool of users. This can be, in-part, accomplished by continuing to work to remove the roadblocks that still exist. This should be done where it matches the goals of a somewhat realistic simulator that also attempts to achieve parity and enjoyment of gameplay. The solution for the VR zoom is a good past example. This was an improvement that made for a much better first impression of the sim for new VR users. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

"The solution for the VR zoom is a good past example" -- completely agree with that --- one of the best improvements. I still can't always ID things before some TrackIR people I fly with but that gap has narrowed a lot and actually do that sometimes if I'm a bit closer to the contact.

 

It is possible that I having flow VR for this long, have grown tolerate of some small things. I have a friend that is currently setting up a system for this in VR. It will be interesting to see how he reacts to some of the things like this. Also he will be using a newer headset and I'm interested to see that difference. I'm still using a Rift CV1. His system will be my first chance to see it through a different headset.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SCG_Wulfe said:

However, improving this experience over time to be even better is an achievable and worthwhile goal.

 

yup... agreed.

 

I remember the VR implementation had:

- a rather annoying sound of bumping in to the cockpit glass. It took a year of continuous complaining to get rid of it. And for the better!  :)

- even smaller "VR cockpit space bubble" than the current one. It took about a year of continuous complaining to get it looked at and ultimately increase it. And for the better! 😄

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, 69th_Didney_World said:

 

yup... agreed.

 

I remember the VR implementation had:

- a rather annoying sound of bumping in to the cockpit glass. It took a year of continuous complaining to get rid of it. And for the better!  :)

- even smaller "VR cockpit space bubble" than the current one. It took about a year of continuous complaining to get it looked at and ultimately increase it. And for the better! 😄


Jesus, it used to be smaller?! 😵

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Hetzer-JG51 said:


Jesus, it used to be smaller?! 😵

 

yes, I can't find in which version update it was increased, I think it was in 3.xx couple of years back. The increase wasn't dramatic, maybe 15-20%, but it made it possible to get much closer to the cockpit glass and the instrument panel than before.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Until this thread I never noticed my head movements were limited in some planes, but last night on the Finnish MP after switching between the G6 Late and the G14 I realized I am allowed so much more head movement in the G14

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Charlo-VR said:

Until this thread I never noticed my head movements were limited in some planes, but last night on the Finnish MP after switching between the G6 Late and the G14 I realized I am allowed so much more head movement in the G14

 

This is the thing.  There appears to be a lack of consistency between aircraft models.  In some aircraft I can move my virtual head closer to objects before contact is made and in other aircraft contact is simulated at a distance further away. 

 

In some aircraft just looking down moves the floor when my head appears to be not in contact with anything at all. 

 

It is like I am being given a much bigger virtual head to fly some aircraft and a smaller head to fly others, LOL.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited by ACG_Talisman
  • Upvote 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

I do like there being limits, as being able to put your head through the canopy is obviously silly. What I don't understand is why the virtual pilot appears to be wearing four or five helmets of increasingly larger size, so that it's impossibly to get your eyepoint to within a foot of the glass.

It's yet another one of the things that makes IL-2 a poor choice for VR flying, and is the reason I've gone back to War Thunder Sim for WW2 stuff. I'm only keeping IL-2 installed for Flying Circus at this point.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/28/2021 at 9:37 PM, Charlo-VR said:

Until this thread I never noticed my head movements were limited in some planes, but last night on the Finnish MP after switching between the G6 Late and the G14 I realized I am allowed so much more head movement in the G14

Yes, you are right. the G-14 gunsight shows how it should be...it is a joy to use it in VR

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I never understood why they didn't "cut and paste" the later 109 VR limits (which are much more reasonable) but alas, they have not yet.  One would think a Dev playing in VR would be like "Wow, this needs to be adjusted".   Maybe its harder than we think.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was reminded last night the the worst VR limit restrictions are probably the JU-88. I know in real-life it was a cramped cockpit for the four men inside, but wow is it tough to look around that cockpit in VR (in my case, I'm also trying to see my pilots note I display in place of the stock cockpit photo). 

 

(Off topic: I would also be delighted if the stock cockpit photo could be moved elsewhere in some of the FW-190s, more in front in all of them rather than tucked under the left elbow in some where it's nigh impossible to read)

Edited by Charlo-VR
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a problem in a significant number of aircraft. Frankly it could still stand to be improved in the ones where it is less of a problem. 

 

IMO it does not really fit any timeline based on when the aircraft were made. The Spit MK IX is one of the worst offenders as well. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...