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Hi, why are the allied aircraft so inferior to the axis aircraft.


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14 minutes ago, Drewm3i said:

The 109 DVII isnt as fun to fly as the spit Camel, but it climbs like a rocket and takes a ton of damage without going down. 

 

Did you see what I did there. ;)  

 

I can't comment on WWII but in FC there are similar issues, discussed at length. However, the Central flyers see no problem at all ....

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37 minutes ago, ST_Catchov said:

 

Did you see what I did there. ;)  

 

I can't comment on WWII but in FC there are similar issues, discussed at length. However, the Central flyers see no problem at all ....

Not sure about flying circus lol. I have it and fly it occassionally but know nothing about how they should perform.

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3 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

Also, for some reason once I get a 109 on my tail in the spit 9 with clipped wings i cannot usually shake him except by diving vertically amd rolling all over the place. 109 pilots have no problem pulling tighter turns then me in the spitfire even though i start gradually to ease in the g forces and then pull harder to no evail...one cannon burst and I'm usually dead which isnt the case when I hit a 109 with a cannon burst.

109 can bleed more speed in a turn, slower speeds equal tighter turns, it also has slats which help at slower turn speeds. And on top of that 109 can deploy flaps which actually help in a turn. Also clipped wing spit has similar turn rates as 109. I dont think you are using your spitfires correctly. I'm no expert and i dont fly much but i have beaten many 109s and produced some streaks in it, i have had multiple 109's behind me many times and got away, once i had like 6 or 7 on my 6 and i got away from all of them by out turning and out climbing them. Spitfire will outclimb anything in the game if you are both starting with similar energy and they are not able to get their speed up. Hint *climbing turns. 109 is a well rounded plane which is effective at many things which happen to suit our virtual world where we can effortlessly throw our planes around the sky. In spit against 109s, try breaking as hard as you can early which you will beat 109, and then one option is to continue turning but uphill, you need to watch behind you as he will try get lead, but when you get the feel for it, 109 cant turn with you, especially if he cut his power, and dropped flaps and lost his e in that first turn. Now get on his six before he dives away. 

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One thing I notice about these MP complaint threads is that people always compare aircraft to aircraft. However, IRL, pilots (every interview I have seen anyway) has stated it isn't the aircraft, but the pilot. You cannot just flip flop from one side to the other and claim any objectivity unless you are flying against the same pilots equally adapt in their respective aircraft. 

 

Just to illustrate my point; I have watch a fair amount of youtubers on MP servers. Comparing the aircraft/ pilots they shot down, I would argue that the AI (despite claims to the contrary) was actually better than the poor devil shot down on the server. Moreover, these same youtubers would fly both sides and shoot down pilots with equal skill (ye,s even with the infamous .50). 

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8 hours ago, drewm3i-VR said:

I drove on a 109 flying straight and level and racked off a few cannon round on the 109s (in my spit 9) tail section which i saw visible hits but he had no damage from.

(...)

The .50s are also so weak that it makes the p51 unusable. The only time I get kills in it are when the opponents engine fails 20 minutes later or I kill the pilot. Ocassionally it will set fires to the 110, but not the 109 usually.

 

A player states two very valid complaints and a senior "Tester" reacts with "laughable".

 

IL-2 Great Battles' misery in a nutshell, 40 weeks and counting.

 

:drinks:

Mike

Edited by SAS_Storebror
typo
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58 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

A player states two very valid complaints and a senior "Tester" reacts with "laughable".

 

"Same as it ever was".

 

D. Byrne. Talking Heads.

Edited by ST_Catchov
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Hmm, a post with a title about all allied  fighters but finally just about P51 ans P47, "proof" coming from youtube and human simmer feelings, no abacus, numbers, historical références,.... maybe the first of this (useless) type in 2021 ? 😁

I wonder why I get so often shoot down by such underpowered planes...

And just to go to the "feeling" side, I know very good blue pilots in our squad which found P51 as a nearly uber plane when they flew it (despite the ,050 efficiency question). So...

Edited by c6_lefuneste
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10 hours ago, c6_lefuneste said:

Hmm, a post with a title about all allied  fighters but finally just about P51 ans P47, "proof" coming from youtube and human simmer feelings, no abacus, numbers, historical références,.... maybe the first of this (useless) type in 2021 ? 😁

I wonder why I get so often shoot down by such underpowered planes...

And just to go to the "feeling" side, I know very good blue pilots in our squad which found P51 as a nearly uber plane when they flew it (despite the ,050 efficiency question). So...

You can find them yourself.  Several videos have been posted showing German planes hit by 50+ rounds of .50 and still fighting.  A couple showed close to 100 hits and the German plane not going down.

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3 hours ago, BCI-Nazgul said:

You can find them yourself.  Several videos have been posted showing German planes hit by 50+ rounds of .50 and still fighting.  A couple showed close to 100 hits and the German plane not going down.

Examples please! One or two Links.

(and please „HIT by 50+ rounds“ and not just shot at...)

I would also like to point out, that a number of pilots use the P-51 and P-47 quite efficiently to down German planes. There is a problem with the DM, the developers acknowledged that, but it is not nearly as bad as some around here claim.

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On 1/15/2021 at 11:19 PM, drewm3i-VR said:

I always get jumped by 109s after diving on an opponent and losing some energy...  

 

sticking to boom and zoom tactics, racked off a kill streak of like 4


Therein lies the problem, and the solution. Stick to boom and zoom in the allied planes (the Spit is great for it) and you’ll have the same success. 
 

The only real difference is that some allied aircraft have better elevator authority which means it is easy to turn too much and burn too much energy. 
 

As always, fly with friends as it is much safer. 
 

von Tom

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4 hours ago, Hermod said:

Examples please! One or two Links.

(and please „HIT by 50+ rounds“ and not just shot at...)

I would also like to point out, that a number of pilots use the P-51 and P-47 quite efficiently to down German planes. There is a problem with the DM, the developers acknowledged that, but it is not nearly as bad as some around here claim.

 

https://youtu.be/JHND7Fe8B8M

 

https://youtu.be/OtKnNOguSo4

 

3 hours ago, von_Tom said:


Therein lies the problem, and the solution. Stick to boom and zoom in the allied planes (the Spit is great for it) and you’ll have the same success. 
 

The only real difference is that some allied aircraft have better elevator authority which means it is easy to turn too much and burn too much energy. 
 

As always, fly with friends as it is much safer. 
 

von Tom

No you won't.  Unless it's cannon armed you're "BOOM" is more like a "clunk".

Edited by BCI-Nazgul
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15 hours ago, c6_lefuneste said:

Conclusion : this thread should be named "why are the .50 so ineffective", but there are at least two other on the same topic...

Well, I'm sorry, but what's he's asking is mostly related to the armament of a large part of the Allied planes, IMO.   I'd be happy as clam with them were it not for that.

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On 1/13/2021 at 4:35 PM, Voodoo_Jager said:

Why are the .50 cals so weak?

why is the p51 outperformed so badly by axis aircraft?

why is the p47 performance so poor? 
why is the blackout physics so bad? 
I paid good money for this game and it’s incredibly poor for the allied side. 

 

@Voodoo_Jager Here is my 2 cents. It will undoubtedly upset some people - hopefully those folks can add me to their ignore list. ;)

 

As we know - history belongs to the victor! When you are watching your Hollywood movies and watching the history channel with the same 10 - 20 stock footage reels of P-51s and P-47s shooting down German fighters, it's understandable that the "fake news" will lead you to believe that there was a significant technology/design advantage b/w the Allies and Germany. Now you get upset when you power up your PC to play this game, the kills don't come so easy - as a matter of fact, it's down right the opposite.

 

Here is the thing, I am sure the German engineering that gave us the 1st operations combat jet, the 1st cruise missile and the 1st long-range guided ballistic missile (and launched our space program) would be just as adequate at designing a piston-engine fighter aircraft what would at least be at par to ours?

 

Here is the reason why what you watch doesn't match what you see in game:

  1. Numbers: The Luftwaffe was out numbered 5 to 1 (maybe more) verse the allies in Europe (quality issues, fuel shortage too and lack of serviceable aircraft etc...). Imagine a group of 5 guys walking around picking fights with one guy LOL. We know how such an engagement will end.
  2. Training: The Luftwaffe was filed pilots with 1/2 the training the allies were by the end of the war. So most of the pilots the USAAF met were pretty much lucky not to kill themselves on takeoff or landing.

These are issues not modeled in this game (with good reason) because no one would ever fly German (online anyway).

 

The issue isn't' that US aircraft perform so poorly in game vs real-life. The issue is more that German aircraft "wouldn't not have " performed so poorly in real-life if the issues above were not a factor. So, like most have said here, in game - it's the pilot and not the plane.

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Fully agree @JG7_X-Man.

It's not that much of a surprise either that a long range escort fighter (P-47, P-51) has to deal with a couple of compromises compared to a front line fighter which can be much lighter and more agile, while carrying comparable armament at the same time.

The perfect match in terms of machines and personell in WW2 aerial combat, if at all, has probably been BoB.

 

Anyway, what you describe falls a little short of two points:

The .cal 50s weakness and the 109's tail issue.

These two are rather unrelated to any real world equivalent.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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3 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

Fully agree @JG7_X-Man.

It's not that much of a surprise either that a long range escort fighter (P-47, P-51) has to deal with a couple of compromises compared to a front line fighter which can be much lighter and more agile, while carrying comparable armament at the same time.

The perfect match in terms of machines and personell in WW2 aerial combat, if at all, has probably been BoB.

 

Anyway, what you describe falls a little short of two points:

The .cal 50s weakness and the 109's tail issue.

These two are rather unrelated to any real world equivalent.

 

:drinks:

Mike

With the biggest respect, but expect the tail damage problem, the 50 cal is now very good and fine now!
If u want stronger 50 cal than this, go and please play War Thunder.

And the question is: if this is not strong enough, what is your idea? You want wing cut a 109 with 10-20 hit from 50 cal  or what?
Now with this damage model, the 50 cal is almost  doing wing cut like the 20 mms. (expect the outer wing, that can be cutted with 3-5 hit from 20mm shvak)

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With the biggest respect, which part of missing API(T) ammo have you missed on the .50s?

I'm not gonna re-enter a debate about things that have been agreed upon the hard way during the past 9 months (except for the usual handful of ignorants making 99.9% of the noise otherwise), no deal.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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1 hour ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

With the biggest respect, but expect the tail damage problem, the 50 cal is now very good and fine now!
If u want stronger 50 cal than this, go and please play War Thunder.

 

With the biggest respect as well, this video is kinda skewed from what the average allied player would experience with thier planes online.

You take the p47 which has the most 50cal guns of any plane, there is considerable time spent behind an enemy plane to get a kill (apart from some) and it is tested in singleplayer where all bullets that hit register.

 

In a bounce from dead 6 travelling at excess speed gun time is very short but even when hitting with convergence it is inconsistent and unreliable. To get situations where the 50cals work well is a skill in itself which many allied players do not even know exist. (I fly both sides often and my first ace+1 in a flight was with the p51 and one with p47 as well, many with german planes) I believe 50cals are not good enough for the average Joe to do well but are good enough for a experienced one to get an ace or barely squeezing more. In contrast the planes with HE have considerably more amount of kills from tab page stats in the servers I fly(yes I am also talking about tempest and spitfires too which make my K4/D9 lose all its lift in 1 wing). ( I also would like to acknowledge that 50cals should not be warthunder micheal bay flame thrower nukes)

 

Online is very different from singleplayer as a 109 pilot online when streaming 3 fluids due to a bounce will fight at full power after a bounce while an ai will just bail. If you are a p47 and this happens the k4/D9 will go chase/climb to you and kill you then land. This happens way too often and when I fly axis I kinda abuse it against 50 cal planes whilst running from british birds.

 

There are things not yet implemented in the sim that could really help such as full control of convergence for crosshatch patterns (which I think will help create spread length ways and get more damage) and if the engine supports it API for all sides that used it. There also did not seem to be much of an aero penalty from the video from 50cals pretty flat in hitting the surfaces as well as testing for aero in other threads. There are many inconsistensies as well such as 109s wings midpoint being a death star port hole and how explodey certain planes are like p47 I had exploded 3 consecutive times in a match.

 

Panda👍

Edited by =[PANDA]=TheRedPanda
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26 minutes ago, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

still the germans  should cry about the mk 108, what is not cut the spitfire wing in half with 1 shot.

Any claim of underperforming MK108, particularly online, has my full support.

Just saying.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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There is nothing wrong with the performance of the allied airplanes, however there is a serious lack of performance with the AN/M2 .50 Caliber machine guns...

Lack of API ammunition which was used quite frequently during WWII by the allies

Lack of ability to set individual convergence for each gun as the player would like to set them...

Lack of damage effect as I have experienced... critical hits to the engine area which would do immediate engine damage often does nothing, hits directly to the cockpit where AP and API ammunition would pass through into the cockpit and kill the pilot do nothing...

I understand the AN/M2 .50 Caliber machine gun isn't a nuke launcher and it shouldn't be, but I still believe in game the .50 caliber machine gun in most US planes is under powered from what it should be.
 

 

On 1/18/2021 at 9:28 AM, -[HRAF]Roland_HUNter said:

We can start it again, but then: still the germans  should cry about the mk 108, what is not cut the spitfire wing in half with 1 shot. Like in IRL. https://imgur.com/gallery/HkGqW
I Trying to be an understanding person, but I always getting face slapped.


I would be completely fine with MK-108s blowing wings off in one shot, or blowing a target airplanes engine to bits with one shot as that was how it was in real life...

But I would also expect 4 or 5 .50 caliber hits to a engine would actually reduce the performance of the aircraft, or even completely destroy the engine and possibly light it on fire.

On 1/18/2021 at 9:55 AM, SAS_Storebror said:

Any claim of underperforming MK108, particularly online, has my full support.

Just saying.

 

:drinks:

Mike

as he said...

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11 minutes ago, [-=BP=-]Slegawsky_VR said:

Upcoming P-51B/C will be virtually useless online against a 109, change my mind.

 

It essentially will be with the lack of effectiveness of the .50 caliber guns as it stands... I remember reading about a pilot who shot down 6 enemy planes in a single flight with a P-51B Mustang... and some pilots would remove a pair of guns from the P-51D as they thought 4 guns were sufficient enough for small light fighters... a modification which is currently allowable but I would never do because I have a hard enough time at times with 6 guns.

 

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  • 1 month later...

honestly, even though OP is trolling, a revisit to low speed handling and extreme AoA of the 109 coupled with a .50 fix would go a long way to fixing a low of things. although anecdotal there has been some evidence that shows some farcical behavior of the 109 wing slats or not. and if it's all the slats fault, why is the La5 not a UFO?  

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On 1/16/2021 at 2:12 AM, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

One thing I notice about these MP complaint threads is that people always compare aircraft to aircraft. However, IRL, pilots (every interview I have seen anyway) has stated it isn't the aircraft, but the pilot. You cannot just flip flop from one side to the other and claim any objectivity unless you are flying against the same pilots equally adapt in their respective aircraft. 

 

It's both.  There's a reason why pilots wanted better planes :) .  Just one example: if he had a better plane Hawker probably survives the encounter with MvR.  Conversely, if you never even see the other guy it doesn't matter what you're flying.

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On 3/22/2021 at 12:40 AM, Denum said:

Good point about the LA5, I'll have to go and see if I can replicate the same AoA moves as 109s at low speed! 

Tried the LA5, low speed handling was good, but even with adjusting for the stall speed difference I couldn't replicate the same levels of control. LA5 would pull up a bit but I couldn't come close to a full loop like the 109, in some cases it just skidded off to the side.

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13 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

It's both.  There's a reason why pilots wanted better planes :) .  Just one example: if he had a better plane Hawker probably survives the encounter with MvR.  Conversely, if you never even see the other guy it doesn't matter what you're flying.

 

It is not really comparable. A pilot in WW2 wanting a better aircraft is not the same that pilots in virtual WW2 complaining that the server is unfair because the planset is unfavorable. Real world pilots found a way to survive and thrive. Virtual pilots have many trial and errors to get it right which real pilots never had. 

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5 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

Real world pilots found a way to survive and thrive. 

 

lol  Just no.  Facing superior aircraft real world pilots mostly died.  A few of the better/luckier ones survived.  But mostly they died.

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Performance of the machine will only take poor ability so far, and we aren't talking huge performance gaps in some cases either. 

 

But more to the point.

 

Some of the best players in the game that are magnitudes of ability higher then the majority of the player base are struggling to successfully get kills with some of the allied aircraft, and when I say magnitudes of ability they are the .01% in terms of skill.

 

Looking at stats for players that had "ace in a flight" sorties the .50 equipped birds needed to be atleast 15% or more in terms of accuracy with their shooting. Some of the axis players were less then 6%.

 

I don't know how many have tried maintaining 20% accuracy but even with stationary targets most players will struggle to even get within sniffing distance of that. Let alone on a moving target.

 

So it's easy to see why people feel the allied planes are inferior. 

 

You bounce someone, get a good burst in them, pull off as they are leaking from every location, 109 pulls magic elevator move. You get hit once and are completely crippled. 

 

The difference in ability required is huge.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

lol  Just no.  Facing superior aircraft real world pilots mostly died.  A few of the better/luckier ones survived.  But mostly they died.

 

I have never read a single pilot that has ever said that the difference between life and death was the "machine." They all said it was the pilot that made the difference. 

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1 hour ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I have never read a single pilot that has ever said that the difference between life and death was the "machine." They all said it was the pilot that made the difference. 

 

The British ace Lanoe Hawker was shot down in an old D.H.2. by a less experienced German pilot (the future Red Baron) in the more advanced Albatros D.II. 

 

Polish pilots proved to be among the best in the world when they started flying the Hurricane and Spitfire, but were hopelessly outmatched when facing Bf-109s in their PZL P.11s. In fact, the first aerial victory of WWII was scored by a Ju-87 against a P.11.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I have never read a single pilot that has ever said that the difference between life and death was the "machine." They all said it was the pilot that made the difference. 

General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland regarded the Me 262 as a decisive factor - and attributed his successes in the JV44 to this machine.
Many German pilots felt clearly superior in their Me 109 to British Hurricanes and clearly inferior in their me 110 to British Spitfires during the Battle of Britain while roughly regarding British fighter pilots their equals in skill. 

There are many cases in which the Plane obviously matters. Of course the pilot matters as well. I guess when comparing the influence of pilot and aircraft performance on the outcome of air combat whatever has the greatest gap will prove decisive.

And in the skies over Europe in 1944 the pilot ability gap between German and Allied pilots on average was far wider than any aircraft performance gap - that I absolutely agree upon. 

Edited by Eisenfaustus
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People need to realise that we're flying perfectly maintained airplanes at a state of "just off the production line" with no variation of specs and no reliability issues.

Strategical side-effects (do we have gas, ammo and enough spares?) are not in effect. The steadily growing numerical superiority and the steadily decreasing capabilities of the average german fighter-pilot are not reflected.

 

A dogfight-server has absolutely ZIP historical relevance or connection. Hence you simply cannot expect a historical outcome in any way, shape or form.

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Yep, who would want to fly on a side which is being placed at a constant disadvantage due to factors outside the player's control... that has to operate with all those limitations. In late war scenarios you would essentially be penalising the player for flying Luftwaffe aircraft, which might be historically correct (up to a point)... but would be denying equal opportunity for players in the game environment.

 

This is still a combat flight simulator, not a (strategic) war simulator and people still want to be able to fight back in order to make the game experience and air combat actually worth while and enjoyable.

 

For the most part, what you see in-game is the full potential of each aircraft deployed on relatively equal terms - and I agree that is quite different to what would have occurred in practice during the war itself.

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8 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I have never read a single pilot that has ever said that the difference between life and death was the "machine." They all said it was the pilot that made the difference. 

 

There are numerous quotes from great pilots about aircraft quality and wanting better aircraft.  What I have never read is "give me whatever, I'm awesome so I'll be just fine".  

 

 

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8 hours ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

I have never read a single pilot that has ever said that the difference between life and death was the "machine." They all said it was the pilot that made the difference. 


Probably because the guy in the crappy aircraft is unavailable for comment.

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Give any pilot the option of a better aircraft and they'd go for it.  I suppose some might prefer one aircraft type over another (e.g. 109 or 190) but if you were in a Spit I you'd jump at the chance of a Vb or IX.


The allied aircraft in this sim aren't inferior at all.  They just don't have the benefit of vastly superior numbers, fresh and experienced pilots and so on.  Fly smart and with a friend and all of sudden the aircraft improves.

 

von Tom

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Hamilton is best F1 driver in whole world, it has nothing to do with his enginers or car designers, its all about driver hes the best.

 

Same allied players in this game are one of the worst and axis players are top grass brass baby, its all bout pilot nothing els baby.

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