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ThePutzmann

Small and Painless Aiming Overhaul

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18 minutes ago, ThePutzmann said:

 

I think that you don't really need a dedicated driver and radio operator. The gunner focuses on gunning, the commander focuses on searching for targets and commanding the tank which includes giving the driver commands on what to do (So the commander is basically driving the tank). So having a dedicated driver would be more immersive, but it isn't necessary, since the commander can do it just as well as the driver. The radio operator in this game is pretty much obsolete. His FOV is very small, so he is of no use spotting targets. Also, you don't really need the hull MG (at least in this state of the game), since you have one in the turret anyways. 

 

Are there any multicrew multiplayer servers that are at least somewhat populated?

I agree with you, we do not need, which is why most of us are doing it all on our own.

 

In terms of multi-crew servers, I can't say whether there are, but is that something a server has to allow, or is it something that is supported inside the software itself? I seem to remember when I was playing around with the D-server setup that the option to join someone's tank was just there without me doing anything special, but I can't say for sure to be honest.

 

But going back to your point, mine was in reference to getting as close to real as possible and nothing more. I think multi-crewing a single vehicle holds a lot of promise in AFV simulation if the user base is sufficient enough to support it. Have a look at PostScriptum game play if you want to see an example of what I mean. But you are right, in the games current state, there is no infantry and the user base is comparatively much smaller in terms of the number of people occupying multi-player tank servers. I think at the moment, Tank Crew only supports 2 players anyways. But even at that, the experience with 2 players is better then having to do it all yourself. 

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4 hours ago, AH_Hollywood said:

 That did the trick. 
 

if it was a snake it would have bitten me. 
 

big help. Thx

👍

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6 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

One of the biggest setbacks with using direct control/key presses to control the turret IMO is the number of keys you use up in the process. When you use a mouse, you are adding at least 3 keys instead of losing at least 6.

I think I misunderstood, you say that using the mouse uses more keys?

 

Quote

 I think if you are going to go the direct control route, you really should consider going all in and set it up like @BladeMeister and others have described. Pedals to steer with the ability to vary throttle, while enjoying the improved tactile reference of a joystick.

I don't necessarily want to use direct mode, however I'm not against increasing the immersion. Unfortunately, the game is against me.

Indeed, I cannot put the accelerator on the right pedal of my rudder pedals and the brake on the left.

Suddenly, I told myself that I was going to put the fire on the right pedal (as in reality on some tanks) but it does not work well.

Sometimes it doesn't shoot, sometimes it shoots twice in a row.

If I put the accelerator on my joystick, then I can no longer use my Z / S keys for this function (W / S)

 

The game offers for the same action to have a main touch, a secondary touch and a tertiary touch but in fact there are conflicts everywhere.

 

@Jason_Williams

In a game like War Thunder, each type of vehicle has its own configuration file. Is it possible to have the same in Il-2? For example, when I assign a key for my tank, I don't want to be told that it is already being used for another action on ... an airplane. This makes everything unclear and mentally tiring when trying to optimize our keys.

 

And why all devices are interconnected? In an airplane, for example, I cannot assign the rudder to my rudder pedals and to the axis of my joystick, otherwise the rudder is not effective.

Edited by No_Face

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13 minutes ago, No_Face said:

I think I misunderstood, you say that using the mouse uses more keys?

 

I don't necessarily want to use direct mode, however I'm not against increasing the immersion. Unfortunately, the game is against me.

Indeed, I cannot put the accelerator on the right pedal of my rudder pedals and the brake on the left.

Suddenly, I told myself that I was going to put the fire on the right pedal (as in reality on some tanks) but it does not work well.

Sometimes it doesn't shoot, sometimes it shoots twice in a row.

If I put the accelerator on my joystick, then I can no longer use my Z / S keys for this function (W / S)

 

The game offers for the same action to have a main touch, a secondary touch and a tertiary touch but in fact there are conflicts everywhere.

 

@Jason_Williams

In a game like War Thunder, each type of vehicle has its own configuration file. Is it possible to have the same in Il-2? For example, when I assign a key for my tank, I don't want to be told that it is already being used for another action on ... an airplane. This makes everything unclear and mentally tiring when trying to optimize our keys.

 

And why all devices are interconnected? In an airplane, for example, I cannot assign the rudder to my rudder pedals and to the axis of my joystick, otherwise the rudder is not effective.

Sorry I didn't make that clear.

 

No I meant that you use more keys in direct control mode when all the functions you would normally use a mouse for are transferred to the keyboard.

 

For example left, right swivel and up, down elevation of the turret/main gun using the mouse will use 4 keys on the keyboard. Then you have the functions that were assigned to the LMB, RMB, and MMB, or scroll wheel. And in a SIM like IL2 where key-binding real-estate is at a premium, transferring 7 keys could require a lot of shuffling around. That is likely to be another benefit of spending a little extra money on a good HOTAS, most will give you enough extra buttons that you shouldn't ever have a problem.   

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To save different key mapping for different planes, tanks or whatever, i.e. I have one for Allied planes, one for Axis planes and one for tanks.

For example, I made my tank key map choices in game and I deleted every other key that I used for aeroplane controls to keep this profile clean of multiple key conflicts. When I was satisfied I just made a folder, - Controls_Tanks - and within it a folder - data - and within it a folder - inputs - . I then copied the contents of the inputs folder from the game to the - inputs - folder of my newly created - Controls_Tanks - folder and placed it in my JSGME Mods folder. I did this for my - Controls_Allied_Planes - and my - Controls_Axis_Planes key maps. Then I use JSGME to apply the one I need. If I want to change from  tank controls to one of the planes controls, I simply uninstall the tank controls in JSGME and then install the Allied or Axis control scheme from JSGME. One note, *always remember to uninstall before every update or you will lose your JSGME installed key maps most likely to the new update.*

 

S!Blade<><

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My question is:

 

Why is it necessary to set "Tank Turret Control" to joystick to be able to control the turret and gun elevation with key presses (W, A, S, D by default)?

 

Please, allow us to use keys to control the turret and gun elevation (W, A, S, D by default) also when "Tank Turret Control" is set to mouse. In this way we will be able to use the mouse to fine tune our aim point (this fine tuning was customarily done by wwii gunners by using hand wheels).

 

Txema

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19 minutes ago, Txema1 said:

My question is:

 

Why is it necessary to set "Tank Turret Control" to joystick to be able to control the turret and gun elevation with key presses (W, A, S, D by default)?

 

Please, allow us to use keys to control the turret and gun elevation (W, A, S, D by default) also when "Tank Turret Control" is set to mouse. In this way we will be able to use the mouse to fine tune our aim point (this fine tuning was customarily done by wwii gunners by using hand wheels).

 

Txema


If this was possible I’m pretty sure that they would not have added the “Tank Turret Control” setting.  Also, I found that the mouse was really awful for fine tuning the aim point.  My joystick is much, much better for this.

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10 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:


If this was possible I’m pretty sure that they would not have added the “Tank Turret Control” setting.  Also, I found that the mouse was really awful for fine tuning the aim point.  My joystick is much, much better for this.

 

The "Tank Turret Control" setting allows to choose between joystick and mouse control. Why should it disable key press control for the turret when using mouse control? They should fix that.

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12 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:


If this was possible I’m pretty sure that they would not have added the “Tank Turret Control” setting.  Also, I found that the mouse was really awful for fine tuning the aim point.  My joystick is much, much better for this.

I believe you and I have already exchanged views on this point, and I get why and fully respect all your points and decisions. But the bold text doesn't really make a lot of sense and can only really have subjective value.

 

One of the biggest complaints that a computer SIM'er could have with using a mouse to target things is that it is in a way defeating the purpose of a true SIM. When you aim with a mouse, you point at a pixel, and the game moves the gun there. In real life, the gunner had to do the moving by himself.

 

So while you may have had the perception that fine tuning your aim was awful with a mouse, the ease and accuracy of fine tuning with a mouse is the thing most SIM'ers have against using it.

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1 hour ago, Txema1 said:

 

The "Tank Turret Control" setting allows to choose between joystick and mouse control. Why should it disable key press control for the turret when using mouse control? They should fix that.


Because “key press” is just a subset of joystick control.

7 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

So while you may have had the perception that fine tuning your aim was awful with a mouse, the ease and accuracy of fine tuning with a mouse is the thing most SIM'ers have against using it.


Have you tried using joystick control yet?

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3 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Because “key press” is just a subset of joystick control.


Have you tried using joystick control yet?

Not yet unfortunately, but like I said BraveSirRobin, it is not because I don't believe you. I know the differences to expect from my previous experiences, but I just don't have a joystick at the moment and won't be getting one. What I did was follow @BladeMeister's advice and set the key-bindings up for turret control, so I am kinda moving in that direction in terms of gun control. But in the current state of the game, I don't know yet if I will keep this set up. 

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Ebay has the T16000M under 50$ used. It is very precise and all you need for TC. Highly recommended.

 

S!Blade<><

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2 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

Not yet unfortunately,


Then why are you arguing with me about which is better for more precise aiming?  I’ve tried both methods.  You have not.  
 

I suppose it’s possible that I’m using a crappy mouse.  But the joystick method is so precise that I have a lot of trouble believing that even a very high end mouse could be better.

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I play with the mouse and I find it more precise than the joystick (which I tried).

Everyone has their own preferences.

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17 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Then why are you arguing with me about which is better for more precise aiming?  I’ve tried both methods.  You have not.  
 

I suppose it’s possible that I’m using a crappy mouse.  But the joystick method is so precise that I have a lot of trouble believing that even a very high end mouse could be better.

I am not arguing with you about your feelings on which is better.

 

I am just pointing out to you that when you use a mouse, you point to a pixel and the game moves the gun for you. All you have to do is point where you want your shot to go, it can't get much easier then that.

 

With a joystick, you can be just as precise, but you have to aim/move the gun sight where you want your shot to land on your own. It requires more control/effort to do the moving yourself.

 

This is not to say that it cannot be done, just that it requires more control. If I compare targeting with the mouse, and targeting using key-presses under direct control, it takes a lot less time and effort to position the gun sight using the mouse because the moving part is being done for me.

And this is one of the reasons why SIM'ers everywhere avoid using a mouse if the intention is to make it more real. Depending on the game though, you might consider using the mouse anyway if the intention is to enjoy the time you spend using the SIM.

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34 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

I am not arguing with you about your feelings on which is better.

 

I am just pointing out to you that when you use a mouse, you point to a pixel and the game moves the gun for you. All you have to do is point where you want your shot to go, it can't get much easier then that.

 


The problem that I had is that the mouse is NOT that precise.  I would try to move the sight to a spot and it would go past that spot.  Or it would stop short.  Or too high.  It would move too slow or too fast.  In short, mouse control SUCKED!!  Joystick control is more precise by a very large margin.

 

Maybe you’re not having that problem.  I don’t know, or especially care.  But since you haven’t even tried joystick control, you’re not really in a position to compare the two methods.

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12 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


The problem that I had is that the mouse is NOT that precise.  I would try to move the sight to a spot and it would go past that spot.  Or it would stop short.  Or too high.  It would move too slow or too fast.  In short, mouse control SUCKED!!  Joystick control is more precise by a very large margin.

Long ago (when you couldn't control the turret with the joystick yet) mouse control was very painful (it went all over the place). Have you tried since?

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31 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


The problem that I had is that the mouse is NOT that precise.  I would try to move the sight to a spot and it would go past that spot.  Or it would stop short.  Or too high.  It would move too slow or too fast.  In short, mouse control SUCKED!!  Joystick control is more precise by a very large margin.

 

Maybe you’re not having that problem.  I don’t know, or especially care.  But since you haven’t even tried joystick control, you’re not really in a position to compare the two methods.

So you mean when you used the mouse to point at pixel "X", the gun sight pointed to pixel "Y" on its own? I am not so sure we are talking about the same thing here.

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18 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

So you mean when you used the mouse to point at pixel "X", the gun sight pointed to pixel "Y" on its own? I am not so sure we are talking about the same thing here.


No.  You’re obviously not having the same problem that I had.

 

42 minutes ago, No_Face said:

Long ago (when you couldn't control the turret with the joystick yet) mouse control was very painful (it went all over the place). Have you tried since?

 

No.  There is no reason to try it.  Joystick control is fantastic.  If they improved mouse control to make it better than it was, that’s also great.  But I have no use for mouse control no matter how it was improved.  In addition, assuming that mouse control was improved, what the heck is everyone complaining about?

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5 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

In addition, assuming that mouse control was improved, what the heck is everyone complaining about?

The basic complaint is about mouse turret control. Ideally, with the mouse, we should have direct control like that of the joystick.

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3 minutes ago, No_Face said:

The basic complaint is about mouse turret control. Ideally, with the mouse, we should have direct control like that of the joystick.


That sounds impossible.  You can move the mouse much faster than the turret can move.  So they have to allow you to move the mouse while the turret moves at a restricted speed.  One of many reasons why mouse control sucks.

 

That isn’t an issue with joystick control.  

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31 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


No.  You’re obviously not having the same problem that I had.

 

 

No.  There is no reason to try it.  Joystick control is fantastic.  If they improved mouse control to make it better than it was, that’s also great.  But I have no use for mouse control no matter how it was improved.  In addition, assuming that mouse control was improved, what the heck is everyone complaining about?

I get, understand, and acknowledge that joystick control is fantastic. The point was never to get you to switch back to using a mouse. You entered the conversation, which is now spread over multiple threads, to tell people experiencing problems with mouse control that they should switch to using a joystick. Which to a certain point is an understandable and fair thing to suggest. But the complaint regarding mouse control is not about its precision, at least not from my point of view. The problem is that it now requires a sweeping motion of the mouse to move the turret. So even if mouse/joystick control are somehow interconnected, it is sort of like saying we can get the turret to move "X" with each mouse movement, but we can't get it to move "Y".

 

 

15 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


That sounds impossible.  You can move the mouse much faster than the turret can move.  So they have to allow you to move the mouse while the turret moves at a restricted speed.  One of many reasons why mouse control sucks.

 

That isn’t an issue with joystick control.  

There are ways to address this, as seen elsewhere. So... not impossible.

 

But personally my feeling regarding this issue is that we should all just drop it, otherwise the door to this thread is likely to be locked shut soon.

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1 hour ago, LachenKrieg said:

 

There are ways to address this, as seen elsewhere. So... not impossible.

 


Really?  How does “elsewhere” deal with the fact that the mouse can move faster than the turret while still keeping the sight locked to the mouse?  Because that sounds impossible everywhere.

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12 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Really?  How does “elsewhere” deal with the fact that the mouse can move faster than the turret while still keeping the sight locked to the mouse?  Because that sounds impossible everywhere.

No one said the view stayed locked on the mouse. The view remains locked on the turret but the turret moves to the mouse position. So the turret can move even if the mouse is "invisible".

I believe this is the system that there was before (but that was not working)

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27 minutes ago, No_Face said:

No one said the view stayed locked on the mouse.


I know it doesn’t work that way.  But isn’t that how you want it to work?

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43 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Really?  How does “elsewhere” deal with the fact that the mouse can move faster than the turret while still keeping the sight locked to the mouse?  Because that sounds impossible everywhere.

Really. you could go back to the beginning of this thread and read the OP's suggestion as a start, but there are a number of ways that this could be handled.

 

The fact that the turret and mouse are moving at different speeds is not the consideration here. That should be covered in the translation between mouse movement and turret movement that occurs.

 

The example I used in the last discussion we had was they could include a button press with mouse movement so that if the mouse is moved without a button press, it moves exactly they way it currently does. But if a button is pressed on mouse movement, the turret continues to move until the button is released even though the mouse has already stopped.

 

But at this point BraveSirRobin, I am just curious, where are we going with this? Are you simply defending the superiority of the joystick here, or is there another point you want to make?

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35 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

 

But at this point BraveSirRobin, I am just curious, where are we going with this? Are you simply defending the superiority of the joystick here, or is there another point you want to make?


My point here was to try to make it clear that the current options are probably the best that are available.  Some things that you want are not realistic, while others (like your button push idea) are just terrible.  But I’m done.  Carry on.

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13 hours ago, Txema1 said:

 

The "Tank Turret Control" setting allows to choose between joystick and mouse control. Why should it disable key press control for the turret when using mouse control? They should fix that.

 

11 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:


Because “key press” is just a subset of joystick control.

 

Obviously this statement does not answer my question. It's like saying "because it works like that" or "because they have programmed it like that". What I am asking about is the logic behind that behaviour. And I am asking the developers to change it because in my opinion it is detrimental for the players that choose mouse control.

 

Developers, please allow us to use also keyboard control for the turret and gun elevation irrespective of whether "Tank Turret Cotrol" is set to joystick or mouse.

 

2 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:


My point here was to try to make it clear that the current options are probably the best that are available.  Some things that you want are not realistic, while others (like your button push idea) are just terrible.  But I’m done.  Carry on.

 

I fully disagree with you. Just check the best World War II tank sims (like Panzer Elite and Steel Fury) and you will realize that it can be done much better for the mouse users.

Edited by Txema1
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22 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

The example I used in the last discussion we had was they could include a button press with mouse movement so that if the mouse is moved without a button press, it moves exactly they way it currently does. But if a button is pressed on mouse movement, the turret continues to move until the button is released even though the mouse has already stopped.

 

Yeah, I liked this idea then and I like it now, but I'm a rubbish player ... obviously.

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