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Reverb G2 lensens investigation MRTV


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Then what could it be?

 

OpenXR integrated? Buggy distortion algorithms in the runtime?

 

That he, as a shortsighted person, didn't see the difference in clarity across the lens?

 

I quote: "It has edge to edge clarity".

 

Newsflash: It doesn't, not even close.

 

Why would we even rely on someone with glasses for his judgement in the past... :blink:

 

He probably doesn't even know razorsharp vision, no matter how much he may correct with contacts. It is not the same.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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Yeah I don't get how he could talk about great clarity edge to edge.  I love my G2 for it's sharpness in the sweet spot but it is definitely limited to the sweet spot.

 

One thing I have noticed of late with my unit, my right lens does not seem to be as sharp as my left lens. Don't know if it has always been that way and I did not notice at first or if it developed over time. Like when I am looking at the instruments, if I close my right eye and just looking with the left eye, it is crystal clear.

Then if I close my left eye just looking with the right eye, it is somewhat fuzzy.

Not sure how that affects my overall image with both eyes.  Might also have something to do with my condition as I only see left of center out of each eye.

But I do not notice a more fuzzy view in right eye outside of wearing the headset.

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19 minutes ago, Firdimigdi said:

It could also be asymmetry of your eyes/face - for the same reason you describe I have to yaw any HMD very slightly to the right to get clear image from both eyes.

 

I will check that out thanks.

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2 hours ago, dburne said:

Yeah I don't get how he could talk about great clarity edge to edge.  I love my G2 for it's sharpness in the sweet spot but it is definitely limited to the sweet spot.

 

One thing I have noticed of late with my unit, my right lens does not seem to be as sharp as my left lens. Don't know if it has always been that way and I did not notice at first or if it developed over time. Like when I am looking at the instruments, if I close my right eye and just looking with the left eye, it is crystal clear.

Then if I close my left eye just looking with the right eye, it is somewhat fuzzy.

Not sure how that affects my overall image with both eyes.  Might also have something to do with my condition as I only see left of center out of each eye.

But I do not notice a more fuzzy view in right eye outside of wearing the headset.


Try turning the goggles upside-down so you can try each eye on the opposite lens.

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20 hours ago, dburne said:

One thing I have noticed of late with my unit, my right lens does not seem to be as sharp as my left lens. Don't know if it has always been that way and I did not notice at first or if it developed over time. Like when I am looking at the instruments, if I close my right eye and just looking with the left eye, it is crystal clear.

Then if I close my left eye just looking with the right eye, it is somewhat fuzzy.

Not sure how that affects my overall image with both eyes.  Might also have something to do with my condition as I only see left of center out of each eye.

But I do not notice a more fuzzy view in right eye outside of wearing the headset.


I’ve noticed that, too, using my WidmoVR prescription lens inserts. One cause I address regularly is simply cleaning smudges from having the lenses so close to my eyes (remember, I’m babying my second and only working cable, which includes not rotating the head strap much, so my hair and eyebrows probably brush the lenses occasionally).


The other fix is setting my IPD and adjusting the straps so that the view in my right eye is sharp but leaves the left eye very slightly less sharp. I think it’s just the asymmetry of my face (and frankly, most faces of those of us who are not models).

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3 hours ago, Charlo-VR said:


I’ve noticed that, too, using my WidmoVR prescription lens inserts. One cause I address regularly is simply cleaning smudges from having the lenses so close to my eyes (remember, I’m babying my second and only working cable, which includes not rotating the head strap much, so my hair and eyebrows probably brush the lenses occasionally).


The other fix is setting my IPD and adjusting the straps so that the view in my right eye is sharp but leaves the left eye very slightly less sharp. I think it’s just the asymmetry of my face (and frankly, most faces of those of us who are not models).

 

I did some adjusting of the straps yesterday and got it a little better, still though it is slightly less sharp in the right eye.

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I think he's just shortsighted and FOS. So he doesn't realize the issue - He either simply can't see it, or he's lying.

 

Also, why would the series headsets be the same as his pre-production unit - he said back then that they'd put in new lenses and had delayed the headset due to this? How does that fit together.

 

 

What a show:rofl:

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17 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Also, why would the series headsets be the same as his pre-production unit - he said back then that they'd put in new lenses and had delayed the headset due to this? How does that fit together.

 

While I'm not sure I give too much credit for what he is saying, to be fair it is not a pre production unit he has. He got a regular consumer G2 when it started to go out to people. Youtubers first.

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1 hour ago, HunDread said:

 

While I'm not sure I give too much credit for what he is saying, to be fair it is not a pre production unit he has. He got a regular consumer G2 when it started to go out to people. Youtubers first.

He had stated in the German videos (which are still up) that he had a pre-production unit, and HP officially stated that part of the delay was due to a lens optimisations. 

 

He also got a consumer unit, but only two weeks ago, ordered from Amazon Spain. The other units are from users, sent to him.

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9 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

He also got a consumer unit, but only two weeks ago, ordered from Amazon Spain. The other units are from users, sent to him.

 

He did say "the [sweet spot / lenses / clarity] same as my unit, which I have been testing for two weeks" -- so I think he is comparing a retail unit to the units unhappy users lent him. He does say some useful things:

  • Try the frankenFov / other mods to get your eyes closer.
  • Don't just use your actual IPD, try an IPD that is slightly higher too (his is 64mm, he uses 65-66mm setting for best clarity)
  • Make sure you adjust the head-strap correctly

Hilariously he says "part of the problem is expectations" yet he was the one hyping the thing! And that Rift S, Quest, Quest 2 have better edge-to-edge clarity. How can you hype the G2 and not mention this issue?!? I think I'm back to "MRTV is not a reliable reviewer" again. The screwup measuring 8KX FOV, and now this. Sigh.

 

I just got the rest of my kit for a custom 3D printed facial interface, will assemble it, re-test, and report back.

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On 1/16/2021 at 9:44 AM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

I quote: "It has edge to edge clarity".

 

Newsflash: It doesn't, not even close.

 

Why would we even rely on someone with glasses for his judgement in the past... :blink:

 

He probably doesn't even know razorsharp vision, no matter how much he may correct with contacts. It is not the same.

 

You are both wrong. You just can't say there is clarity, or there is no clarity. It always depends.

The edge-to-edge clarity is subjective, as many other statements regarding the headset. I have seen through-the-lense shots in youtube that definitely looked like edge-to-edge sharpness. I have seen several people in several different forums stating, they have nearly edge-to-edge clarity (normal drop-off like all other headsets). And yet i have also seen people complaining about no edge-to-edge clarity, some even talking about only a "sharp dot". So it's definitely subjective.

And this after all i read is probably mainly due to the distance from the eyes to the lenses - which is actually pretty normal, because the same thing can happen with other optic instruments such as microscopes or telescopes. It pretty much seems, that the more your eyes are oozing out of your skull, the better the visuals in the G2. I am getting mine today, hoping for good edge-to-edge clarity, i kinda have oozing out eyes. Will post my first experiences tomorrow.

 

And regarding the "razorsharp vision" - sorry, but that is just plain wrong. I have -7 dioptrin, but with contacts my vision is better then 99% of people (>200%) in all tests. Shortsightedness has nothing to do with the optimal vision you can achieve with eye correction. 

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It's plain right, 

I have gone from glasses over good quality (soft) contacts to full, professional laser eye correction by a new-gen (Zeiss) robot.

 

The ability to "grasp" 3D is higher without contacts. Focus quicker. More RL clarity. It's hard to explain; it is better. 

 

It's not referring to you being able to read letters on a flat board. That's too trivial. You may easily score the same 20/20 in the flat board, but it's not the same.

 

 

You will realise what I mean if you get properly lasered.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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images.jpg.b2bea7a088b2916929cde4e0053b6ba2.jpgclarity? ...what clarity?

 

 

With my g2 i have to move my head in order to see the point i want to behold sharp and clear. Moving just the eyeballs, the sharpness falls off to the edges really quick. So the sweet spot is kinda small.  But the sharpening while moving the Head happens really fast, so i won`t complain. Coming from a CV1, I swallow this pill and praise the Quality of the image every day, but yes, i understand that it can be annoying.

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After spending some time personally testing the G2 and reflecting on the various opinions on this... I think a lot of it boils down to factors surrounding the high resolution. 

 

As we all agree, the resolution is very high in the G2. However, many of us find that is only perceived within a very limited sweet-spot. 

 

I think it is quite possible that our brains are having more trouble with the gradation from an extremely clear and sharp sweet spot to increasing blur at the edges... this is vs a slightly blurry sweet spot that just gets more and more blurry as you get to the edges.

 

My completely unqualified theory is that our eyes operate differently in these two scenarios. When the centre is sharp, our eyes behave more like normal and are really able to focus fully. However, they experience discomfort and strain when looking from the sharp centre to the blurred edges as the eye muscles have to go from focus to a sort of more relaxed state that does not attempt to fully focus an image that cannot be totally resolved. I would expect this effect, if real, would be lessened for those who have less than perfect eyesight. I would also expect that on a headset that displays less resolution and therefore a less sharp image in the sweet-spot, our eyes are able to remain more constantly in that somewhat relaxed state and our brain basically concedes that it will not achieve a razor sharp image. 

 

Second, HP has already said that the super sampling is applied exponentially in the centre of the lenses/screens. This means that if you turn down your supersampling for performance reasons, you will notice an exponential drop-off outside of the sweet spot, likely before you notice it drop off in the centre. This has been my experience. Getting the headset to run even at 74% SS has made for a remarkable perceived increase in the size of the sweet spot vs running at 60% or even 70%. And in relation to what I wrote above, it also made for much less perceived eye fatigue and strain. 

 

Anyhow, just some ideas.

 

 

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I think anyone posting "you are wrong" without a headset in their hand (or on their face) should think twice.

 

I quite like Wulfe's theory that because the center is so sharp we simply notice the falloff much more. In my testing the sharpness across the whole lens was much more consistent on the Index, but the absolute sharpness was similar outside the center. I do think the edge-to-edge sharpness of the Index lenses is better, or at least that the central "quite sharp" zone is bigger; this might be a function of a generally physically larger lens (Index lenses are what, 40% more surface area?)

 

I sent my Index back for an RMA so I'm forced to use the G2 for a few weeks, I think that's actually a good test -- get the thing as good as I can get it, swap back to the Index, and decide which headset I prefer. Last night I put on a 3D printed "wide" FOV face gasket which gets my eyes closer to the lenses. I actually don't think that helped much with the sweet spot. I ended up using a fairly thick face pad for comfort and so my eyes are not as close as they could be, but either way it didn't do that much for the sweet spot. The perception of improved FOV is nice, though.

 

The vertical angle of the headset against my face seems to make a lot of difference. It seems to need to be rotated more "up" than "flat" against my face structure, but this doesn't really change the size of the best-clarity spot, just where on the picture it falls.

 

The real test is "do I want to use this for competitive multiplayer?" and I think the answer is yes even though the headset has drawbacks. The pixel density enables me to re-acquire a target more reliably after looking away. Cockpit gauges look good (as long as you aim with your head not just your eyes). That may be worth it to do all the other hardware I have to buy to get the headset competitive (I need a CPU upgrade to hit 90hz, and I need a VRAM upgrade to do any kind of supersample in the jet sim).

 

I'm still waiting for the Index-S. That exact headset but with an upgraded panel would be perfect. Good FOV, good sharpness, highly adjustable, 80/90/120/144hz mode....

 

Conclusion: Still no perfect VR headset on the market. Maybe that shouldn't be a surprise.

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As stated by others it's best to adjust your IPD a few millimeters wider to help position both eyes within this central zone.  Most people's IPD is not the same distance to center for each eye either, so this widening out of the IPD with help center both eyes.  Also, having your eyes too close is going to increases our eye angle to the edges and thus add more blur.

49 minutes ago, Alonzo said:

The vertical angle of the headset against my face seems to make a lot of difference. It seems to need to be rotated more "up" than "flat" against my face structure, but this doesn't really change the size of the best-clarity spot, just where on the picture it falls.

 

This is a very good point, I haven't read this yet but makes sense as our faces will mount the HMD in or out more at the top/bottom of our faces.  Keeping the eyes 90^ to the lenses must be critical to clarity I think, possibly curved lens will help edge clarity too.

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So as I said I tested the Reverb G2 now as well and as I expected the sharpness drop-off is really not as bad and just shows, that it depends on the person using it. I am using 100% in SteamVR, which is better for edge-to-edge clarity then a lower value.

 

Yes, there is still a drop-off of clarity towards the edges of the lenses, but it's not drastic. I can still read gauges at the edges of the lenses, I'd say comparable to the Rift S edges. Most of the time I don't notice the sharpness drop-off. So I see why someone would say that there is edge-to-edge clarity, after all it's a matter of interpretation what that actually means. 

 

What I do notice coming from the Rift S is the slightly smaller FoV. Already ordered the 3D printed gasket to circumvent that. If I could make a wishlist for the G3 it wouldn't be much - slightly better (bigger) lenses for better edge clarity and a bigger FoV (maybe 120° horizontal), and I would be over the moon. The heat development didn't bother me yesterday in a 5h playsession. Might be different in the later spring and summer, but I am usually not playing PC in these seasons. I could not "go back" to any other headset from the G2.

 

After a bit of dialing the headset in, I just love it. Only tested War Thunder so far, but I can finally identify aircraft types again at roughly a distance of 600-800m. Still have to test Il2, but if it will be the same, the G2 might actually bring me back to flying IL2 after a 2 years break. 

 

On 1/19/2021 at 3:27 PM, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

It's plain right, 

I have gone from glasses over good quality (soft) contacts to full, professional laser eye correction by a new-gen (Zeiss) robot.

 

The ability to "grasp" 3D is higher without contacts. Focus quicker. More RL clarity. It's hard to explain; it is better. 

 

It's not referring to you being able to read letters on a flat board. That's too trivial. You may easily score the same 20/20 in the flat board, but it's not the same.

 

 

You will realise what I mean if you get properly lasered.

Odd, I have never heard or read of such thing. I was at the preliminary examination two months ago and they told me, after being lasered I will see as with the best glasses possible, but they could not guarantee that it will be as good as with my soft contacts. 

I have never had the feeling to not see good 3D with contacts, quite the opposite. Focus is super quick. When I started wearing contacts 19 years ago, the focus took a bit, but after some years of "familiarization" it's more or less instant now. And the clarity is perfect.. in the mountains I am always the first one to spot stuff (animals, paragliders, distant waterfalls)..sometimes my mrs/mates are not even seeing what i can see. 

I'll probably get lasered in a years time, if the finances allow it and only then I'll be able to provide a final verdict, but till then I don't believe it will make my sight better in any way compared to contacts.

Edited by II./JG77_Manu*
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Yeah, as I said, you'll realise afterwards.

 

Your mrs/mates don't have 20/20 eye sight then, or don't spend attention to it as much. So comparing to them.. why? 

They have to put the disclaimer that they can't guarantee it, because that would make them eligible if it doesn't work out well. Things can go wrong especially post-OP in the 2-3 months afterwards, like people going swimming right away, or flying on aircrafts (as passengers), or walking into Hollister's being showered with perfume from their disgusting A/Cs. Or not wearing their protective glasses because "they feel well already, I heal faster than the average dude hah, superman!", or skipping their eye-drops "my eyes are fine already, wohoo quicker than I thought!" People do all kinds of stupid sh't. 

 

So yeah, the final verdict you'll be able to make only afterwards. The whole thing is better than you'd expect. Even just the comfort alone makes it worth it. Paid around 5K € for it. Got a proper, local treatment (Hamburg, Germany, Euroeyes), don't cheap out with this.

 

There are enough horror stories of people having done that in the Balkans or Turkey.

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Coming from an Index, which does not have as much absolute image sharpness due to the lower resolution panel but has good sharpness across the lens, the G2's rapid sharpness falloff is very noticeable. I don't think it depends on someone's eyes, I think it depends on what they are used to and what they are looking for. To me it was obvious the moment I put the headset on, running at 100% in the WMR store. As soon as I move my head 15 degrees off a piece of text, it starts to go blurry.

 

I got my eyes lasered a few years ago. I would recommend it. I did end up with one eye being slightly not-perfect, which I perceive as a slight softness in the vision. It's less than 0.25 diopter though, so cannot be re-lasered to fix it. But all the other benefits, like being able to actually see when I get up in the morning and not needing to mess with contacts, is well worth it.

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The fact alone that you can sit on the white throne at 3AM and look outside to count the stars randomly is amazing.

 

Yeah it probably depends on expectations very much.

I'm now thinking, my Index had uncommonly strong godray issues - maybe it was a monday model. 

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German forums I remember from years ago, it's been half a decade. I didn't have any links saved.

 

People got lasered sloppily or on older non-state-of-the-art medical robots. Or they didn't receive proper after-care, didn't receive proper follow-up appointments (checkups for up to half a year after OP every third or fourth week by a doctor), so when some medication or application was required they didn't get it and only found out afterwards when comparing their story to others. There were bad stories from people who did it in Slovakia near Vienna, and from other Balkan places and something in Istanbul as well. Here in Germany, they'd do the proper care and if the healing process is troubled by anything, they intervene and fix it. I got half a year of proper professional drops (and additional ones, as I had very dry eyes for 2-3 months), two sets of special sunglasses and also pills that would make sure I didn't have a vitamin/whatever deficiency in my diet, as well as doctor appointments checking the course of healing - professionally with special devices. My eye-sight and its development was also logged and controlled.

A proper eye surgery like that on the latest medical bots was 5k to 6k at least time I checked (Euros). But it's worth it every penny, would not cheap out with that. Get the best of the best.

Because if things go south you might get as well jump off a bridge right? :fly:

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20 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

Here in Germany, they'd do the proper care and if the healing process is troubled by anything, they intervene and fix it. I got half a year of proper professional drops (and additional ones, as I had very dry eyes for 2-3 months), two sets of special sunglasses and also pills that would make sure I didn't have a vitamin/whatever deficiency in my diet, as well as doctor appointments checking the course of healing - professionally with special devices. My eye-sight and its development was also logged and controlled.

A proper eye surgery like that on the latest medical bots was 5k to 6k at least time I checked (Euros). But it's worth it every penny, would not cheap out with that. Get the best of the best.

Because if things go south you might get as well jump off a bridge right? :fly:

 

you guys are surely lucky with the levels of medical attention in Germany.

 

The US healthcare is akin to buying a pair of sunglasses at a mobile kiosk in the mall. You get a receipt and a 5 minute warranty.

 

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1 hour ago, 69th_Didney_World said:

 

you guys are surely lucky with the levels of medical attention in Germany.

 

The US healthcare is akin to buying a pair of sunglasses at a mobile kiosk in the mall. You get a receipt and a 5 minute warranty.

 


2nd-world country, much like ours now.

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Only thing I notice with my Reverb G2, whilst I have a crisp clear image in the sweetspot, if I check each lens by closing one eye, my right lens is just a 

little less sharp than my left lens.

 

Not sure it really affects the overall image clarity for both eyes, just a small annoyance.

Edited by dburne
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3 minutes ago, dburne said:

Only thing I notice with my Reverb G2, whilst I have a crisp clear image in the sweetspot, if I check each lens by closing one eye, my right lens is just a 

little less sharp than my left lens.

 

Not sure it really affects the overall image clarity for both eyes, just a small annoyance.


Did you try turning the headset upside down, so you could test each lens on the other eye?

 

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10 hours ago, dburne said:

Only thing I notice with my Reverb G2, whilst I have a crisp clear image in the sweetspot, if I check each lens by closing one eye, my right lens is just a 

little less sharp than my left lens.

 

Not sure it really affects the overall image clarity for both eyes, just a small annoyance.

I'd start an RMA over this.

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Here are my own observations about the G2.

 

The optics are super clear in a small spot in the center, and less clear as you move away from the center. But still decently clear on a large portion of the lens. I'd rate it as "good enough" on 25% of the surface. 25% of the surface means half of the length in both dimensions, so it's not bad. I have used the Rift CV1, Pimax 5k+ and Pimax 8k+. For me, none of these headsets were better than the G2, when it comes to clarity of the lenses.

 

The good thing with the clarity falloff is that it helps you dial your IPD correctly. Put some small text on a very large panel 10+m away from you, and adjust your IPD to maximize clarity of the word you are looking at. Without a sweet spot with falloff, it will look equally clear regardless of the IPD you set. The problem with that is that I get crosseyed and won't notice it until I take the headset off, at which point it takes a few minutes to adjust again. In the long run, doing this on a daily basis can't be good for your eyes.

 

The bad thing with that is that if I want to look at a small gauge in the cockpit, I need to look down. Just moving my eyes down forces me to look through the part of the lens where light mixes and breaks, and where focus can't be achieved. I may still be able to read the gauge, but it's unpleasant, with a feeling that I have something in my eyes causing them to water excessively.

 

The clarity falloff when looking left or right doesn't bother me much. It's there too, but I would say that clarity across the lens is good enough when looking at the outside world. If there's something I need to focus on, chances are I need to turn my head anyway before I zoom at it.

 

The reason why Sebastian did not notice any difference is IMHO pretty simple: His test uses large numbers, much larger than the small symbols on the small gauges we have in cockpits, and larger than names we see on the map. If you want to objectively judge clarity, small text is one of the better ways to do it.

 

The claim that you need 100% supersampling in the G2 in SteamVR to achieve whole-lens clarity is IMO incorrect. It's neither necessary nor sufficient. Supersampling doesn't affect lenses. You will gain in picture quality, which of course plays a role in what people call "clarity", but it's just wrong terminology.

If a HP representative stated that, well, they are wrong too. Maybe trying to blame a "weakness" of the lenses (which I actually think are more than decent) on the user's system, because running at 3100p is out of reach for most hardware and games. Or they never actually said or meant exactly that, and the person who relayed that misinterpreted them.

 

I feel I needed to write that paragraph above, because otherwise people might get the wrong idea about the hardware requirements for the G2. They are high, but not impossibly high. I wish they would introduce a 75Hz mode, though. I think it's a sweet spot for flight sims.

Edited by coconut
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4 hours ago, coconut said:

 

 

The claim that you need 100% supersampling in the G2 in SteamVR to achieve whole-lens clarity is IMO incorrect. It's neither necessary nor sufficient. Supersampling doesn't affect lenses. You will gain in picture quality, which of course plays a role in what people call "clarity", but it's just wrong terminology.

If a HP representative stated that, well, they are wrong too. Maybe trying to blame a "weakness" of the lenses (which I actually think are more than decent) on the user's system, because running at 3100p is out of reach for most hardware and games. Or they never actually said or meant exactly that, and the person who relayed that misinterpreted them.

 

I feel I needed to write that paragraph above, because otherwise people might get the wrong idea about the hardware requirements for the G2. They are high, but not impossibly high. I wish they would introduce a 75Hz mode, though. I think it's a sweet spot for flight sims.


I want to clear up any misunderstanding and because I think it will very much help people achieve the most out of the G2. What the rep stated is that the supersampling is applied exponentially in the centre of the lenses. This means at lower settings it also falls off exponentially at the edges. I have noticed a marked difference in how well I can read text and see things on the edges at higher SS. 
 

There are two factors going on. I agree that changing SS does nothing to alter the sweet spot as it is impacted by  lens construction. 
 

However, I also had that dry eye/something in your eye feeling when looking to the edges to check gauges/scan... that was drastically reduced when I set my SS at 74% vs 60-70%,. My theory is that it was just enough to push the clarity up so that my eyes weren’t as bothered trying to focus/de focus on sweet spot vs out of it.

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
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I believe what is happening is down to the individual rather than a physical difference with the HMDs.  I could use any high res HMD and get a "perfect" clarifty, then hand the same HMD to someone with an identical IPD, who complains about blurryness and distortions.  That and the fact the G2 was massively overhyped by MRTV and many others to be almost flawless.  I stopped watching MRTV years ago because each new HMD he likes becomes overhyped to insane levels.  Rift CV1, Odyssey, Pimax 5K+, G1, Index and now G2.

 

I remember people saying the Rift CV1 had even clarity accross the entire lense, the reality was it just looked equally crap everywhere.  GIve that same person a HP Rever G2 (or even the G1) and they would see how much sharper it all looked all over the screen and especially in the centre.  The reality is as HMD resolution increases the sweetspot is going to become more noticeable and through the lense shots never EVER do any HMD justice.

Edited by ICDP
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