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smoother performance with higher refresh rate 144 (index)


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I assumed/heard a refresh rate of 80 would be better for performance in GB however I'm finding that at lower RF's I am getting a horrible kind of stuttering effect (the contours of the ground are flickering distractingly when I roll) that is alleviated when I crank up the RF. My settings are not that high (MSSA on 4 though) so maybe thats why I'm finding this (a balance). I thought maybe I was imagining it so went back down to 80 and gah had to move it back up again. Does kind of make sense that a higher refresh rate would entail a smoother performance no? I have res per eye down to 56 percent though, no shadows, balanced graphics, 40 draw distance etc. But it was hard to play on 80 and it's great now!

 

Any one else found the same? Just wondering if there are some settings I don't know about that is conflicting with the 80 RF somehow. I do have a 144 monitor..

 

It is also night and day smoother in the other sim too. In that sim I was getting a good performance generally but I noticed whenever I would perform a loop (or quick movements) the ground beneath me was often juddering simlar to what was happening in GB. This used to happen on my old VIVE as well and would sometimes be worse/improved after certain updates.

Now this doesen't seem to happen (though I might see rare glimpses). But not only that, but the overall responsiveness and fluidity of the VR performance also seems to have improved on 144.

 

So...I'm sticking with it for now! 

Edited by Wolf8312
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Must be something wrong with this or with my setup or steam VR or the game itself. Having researched this there is no way I should be getting better performace at 144 and a worse performace at 80 but its unmistakable. Weird!

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I am new to vr and have a lot to learn. I have the quest 2 and have been struggling to find a good spot between looks and performance. I saw your post and increased my refresh rate from the min 72 hz to the max 90 hz for the q2 and turned on asw. The result was a surprisingly smooth experience and improved graphics particularly more clarity and less shimmer in the landscape. This is despite the fps at or about 45 from my weak 1080. 
 

No idea what it means other than the improvement seems similar to what you are seeing when upping the refresh rate. 

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14 hours ago, TheSNAFU said:

I am new to vr and have a lot to learn. I have the quest 2 and have been struggling to find a good spot between looks and performance. I saw your post and increased my refresh rate from the min 72 hz to the max 90 hz for the q2 and turned on asw. The result was a surprisingly smooth experience and improved graphics particularly more clarity and less shimmer in the landscape. This is despite the fps at or about 45 from my weak 1080. 
 

No idea what it means other than the improvement seems similar to what you are seeing when upping the refresh rate. 

 

Baffled as well mate. I don't even look at FPS and always go on how it feels fluidity wise. Believe me if its not smooth enough (like it was) it will put me off playing.

Reprojection is horrible without it. And even with motion smoothing off it is nowhere near as good on 80 as it is on 144. I'm keeping it up high but I don't understand it. Trouble with VR though, is that you are always one update (steam/DCS) away from it all going to shit again!

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14 minutes ago, Wolf8312 said:

Trouble with VR though, is that you are always one update (steam/DCS) away from it all going to shit again!

 

Well that's reassuring lol! 

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I never tried the 144Hz of my Index since it means that CPU and GPU frametimes has to be below 6.9 ms to be at 144fps. That´s is too much demanding.

 

Since you are using MSAAx4 this will bottleneck your GPU for sure at 80 or 144Hz mode. You can see this taking into account that VR is more demanding than 4K.

 

Probably you are always in repro mode when you fly at 144Hz so you get 72fps, and perhaps this could be more fluid than flyying at 80Hz and being at 40fps.

 

You can install the fpsVR tool (it is really great tool) to see your CPU and GPU frametimes while you are playing in both modes.

 

For the Index, having a 56% SteamVR SS is really not getting the full potential of the device. It is better to put it at 130% (for a 1080Ti) and then adapt your graphics settings accordingly.

Don´t use MSAA and put clouds to low or med.

 

Also, If your monitor uses G-Sync you could try to disable it as well when you are in VR.

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Not on VR here, but I definitely notice worse stuttering on my 145Hz (165 overclock) G-sync panel if I limit the FPS (with Nvidia Inspector). Even if the value I have limited it to seems like greater than the max framerates I am getting.

 

It seems 'let it run to max' works for Hz here

 

Regards,

 

M

Edited by marcost
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8 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

Why?

 

You only need to disable G-Syn (or Freesync) if you have fullscreen enabled in graphics settings, or just disable full screen in graphics settings.  If you don't VR seems to maximise at your monitor max refresh rate.

Edited by ICDP
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2 minutes ago, ICDP said:

 

You only need to disable G-Syn (or Freesync) if you have fullscreen enabled in graphics settings, or just disable full screen in graphics settings.  If you don't VR seems to maximise at your monitor max refresh rate.

This is game specific ?

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, chiliwili69 said:

I never tried the 144Hz of my Index since it means that CPU and GPU frametimes has to be below 6.9 ms to be at 144fps. That´s is too much demanding.

 

Since you are using MSAAx4 this will bottleneck your GPU for sure at 80 or 144Hz mode. You can see this taking into account that VR is more demanding than 4K.

 

Probably you are always in repro mode when you fly at 144Hz so you get 72fps, and perhaps this could be more fluid than flyying at 80Hz and being at 40fps.

 

You can install the fpsVR tool (it is really great tool) to see your CPU and GPU frametimes while you are playing in both modes.

 

For the Index, having a 56% SteamVR SS is really not getting the full potential of the device. It is better to put it at 130% (for a 1080Ti) and then adapt your graphics settings accordingly.

Don´t use MSAA and put clouds to low or med.

 

Also, If your monitor uses G-Sync you could try to disable it as well when you are in VR.

 

I just go with what feels smooth. I honestly don't care about what my fps might be because I learned over the years with VR that I would get too fixated on FPS.

A higher FPS with stuttering is alot less desirable to me than a much lower FPS without stuttering. I really can't put clouds down to low or medium as I am using a graphics mod and it looks awful for me in VR without the mod. I also find MSSA is one of the few settings I can't really do without (much more so than shadows). I have personally found on higher graphics settings that I wasn't able to put the RF up. Whereas on lower settings up, with the refresh rate down I was able to enjoy the game. So it was basically about finding a balance and tweaking things until I found a performance that felt smooth.

 

I might tinker around with it and try out some of your suggestions (especially the G-sync) at a later time but I am a great believer in leaving things alone once you are happy with the performance in VR because otherwise one ends up spending more time in graphics menus (and searching for the holy grail) than he does actually flying. Alot of these preferences are deeply subjective as well I think.

Edit- Just tried turning off G-sync and going back down to 80. Still stuttering!

Honestly though it is sooo much smoother and better to play like this!

Edited by Wolf8312
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58 minutes ago, Wolf8312 said:

A higher FPS with stuttering is alot less desirable to me than a much lower FPS without stuttering. I really can't put clouds down to low or medium as I am using a graphics mod and it looks awful for me in VR without the mod. I also find MSSA is one of the few settings I can't really do without (much more so than shadows).

 

When I was recomending fpsVR it ws not only to measure just fps, it is also to see if the root of the problem is in the GPU or in the CPU or in both. With that tool you can also see sttuters.

It is only a diagnose tool, not a cure tool. Repeated stuttera are as you say less desirable than low fps. Look this.

 

But as you say, the important thing is your own perception. If you are better with one settings, just go with that and have fun.

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Just tried it with Rfactor. Smooth as hell (144) with res cranked up to 100 (can probably go higher). It seems as if the increased refresh rate and reprojection compliment each other or something though I am not using motion smoothing (don't need to!). I was very skeptical about getting the index. Did so because my old Vive was battered and its lenses broken so I thought why not. But it was insane how unexcited I was about getting it. I almost felt bummed out about it, like I'd probably made a mistake, because I expected I'd need a system upgrade to be honest. That seemed to be the case when I first tried it as well and I wasn't wholy happy until I upped the RR (and lowered settings). But I'm actually getting better visuals/clarity/SDE/sound and to top it all off now better all round performance. Better performance above all else is what I wanted from a new headset, but its surprising that nobody seems to have experienced this. Keep worrying an update is going to drop which will bugger it all up for me!

 

I really think people should forget the FPS counters and give it a try and see what they think.

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Found I was also able to crank up the res in DCS to 110 and it still be smooth but its probably better a bit lower. Funny thing is it seems easier to fight with as well my accuracy seemed improved! Probably placebo. Next thing will be to try and see how some WW2 campaigns perform. But the index and 144 RR gets a big thumbs up from me.

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Could you please let me know what are your IL-2 graphics settings (a screenshoot of the ingame settings) and also a screen-shoot of your SteamVR settings?

Let me know also what plane/map/campaign are you testing.

I will try this 144Hz mode just for curiosity.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

Could you please let me know what are your IL-2 graphics settings (a screenshoot of the ingame settings) and also a screen-shoot of your SteamVR settings?

Let me know also what plane/map/campaign are you testing.

I will try this 144Hz mode just for curiosity.

 

Shadows off

Lowest Draw distance (40)

MSSA 4

4 k textures on

Balanced graphics

Pretty much everything else off (SSAO HDR etc) or lowest (rough terrain etc)

Blurred terrain (landscape filter).

 

My steam VR settings are here. 102 percent just got me the best performance I've ever known on DCS (on demanding WW2 campaign mission that is now playable!) though I did combine it with motion smoothing for better results. Will probably lower the res for an optimal performance for those kind of missions in future though. Not that I ran into any problems but its best to keep juice in reserve for more demanding situations.

 

I Haven't really tried motion smoothing with GB but I think it will also probably work well. I made a mistake in assuming that motion smoothing had a problem when it seems now that it was the low refresh rate (at least on my machine). The performance never used to be like this on GB though as obviously I didn't used to have the index.

 

Also have a 144 monitor with G sync enabled but that doesn't seem to make much difference that I can see.

 

Would recommend that you try it without any FPS counters just see if it seems smoother especially when rolling or sudden movements paying close attention to the contours of the terrain (stutter).

 

 

image.png.b26ec4ff3902531c164907a4033283d7.png

 

 

Edited by Wolf8312
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Wow. After your post Wolf I thought to have a fiddle. With these settings, even on the deck through trees and over a city (QM 8 vs 8 ) I didn't see less than 89fps on my G2 and smooth as silk. I could see an extremely small reduction in image quality on the dials, so small I'm not sure it's not imagined. 

CPU at 5gig, GTX1080Ti.
 

vrsettings.jpg

Edited by JG51-Hetzer
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2 hours ago, Wolf8312 said:

I Haven't really tried motion smoothing with GB but I think it will also probably work well.

 

You were talking about the other simulator. So, I have no oppinion about that.

I have just tried your IL-2 settings, 102%SS and 144Hz with Motion Smoothing ON.

I run QMB on Kuban Novorosyk 2v4 with cloudy at 18:00. Planes at 1500m and clouds at 2000.

 

I used fpsVR to check frametimes. CPU frametimes are OK but GPU frametimes are always orange or red. So 72fps or sometimes lower. And Motion smoothing adds some glitches. At 102%SS the details are less defined and image is blurrier.

 

So, definetely not for me. You perception might be different than mine.

 

I just used my normal settings and I think it runs much better overall:

 

Index 80Hz mode, 130SS% and MotionSmoothing OFF.

For IL-2 settings:

Preset: High settings

Shadows: High

Mirrors: Off

Distant landscape: x3

Canopy refl: Off

Horizon draw: 130Km

Landscape filter: Blurried

Terrain roughness: Off

Grass quality: Normal

Cloud: High

AA: FXAAx2

SSAO&HDR&DistantBuildings: OFF

Sharpen&4Ktextures: ON

 

For the same QMB I enter in the 60-80 fps zone due to GPU, but with no clouds I am always at 80fps. The CPU frametimes are always quite below 12.5ms.

I think I will upgrade my 1080Ti in the near future: Candidates are 3080FE or 6800XT.

 

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On 1/1/2021 at 1:05 PM, Wolf8312 said:

Must be something wrong with this or with my setup or steam VR or the game itself. Having researched this there is no way I should be getting better performace at 144 and a worse performace at 80 but its unmistakable. Weird!

 

It could be because the game cannot render at 144 so it automatically defaults to 50% i.e. 72.  If you set it at 80 but it cannot quite manage 80 it may be dropping to 40.  72fps compared to 40fps is a huge difference and much smoother.

 

The easiest way to check is to simply turn on the in-game fps counter to see if this is what is happening.

 

von Tom

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57 minutes ago, chiliwili69 said:

 

You were talking about the other simulator. So, I have no oppinion about that.

I have just tried your IL-2 settings, 102%SS and 144Hz with Motion Smoothing ON.

I run QMB on Kuban Novorosyk 2v4 with cloudy at 18:00. Planes at 1500m and clouds at 2000.

 

I used fpsVR to check frametimes. CPU frametimes are OK but GPU frametimes are always orange or red. So 72fps or sometimes lower. And Motion smoothing adds some glitches. At 102%SS the details are less defined and image is blurrier.

 

So, definetely not for me. You perception might be different than mine.

 

I just used my normal settings and I think it runs much better overall:

 

Index 80Hz mode, 130SS% and MotionSmoothing OFF.

For IL-2 settings:

Preset: High settings

Shadows: High

Mirrors: Off

Distant landscape: x3

Canopy refl: Off

Horizon draw: 130Km

Landscape filter: Blurried

Terrain roughness: Off

Grass quality: Normal

Cloud: High

AA: FXAAx2

SSAO&HDR&DistantBuildings: OFF

Sharpen&4Ktextures: ON

 

For the same QMB I enter in the 60-80 fps zone due to GPU, but with no clouds I am always at 80fps. The CPU frametimes are always quite below 12.5ms.

I think I will upgrade my 1080Ti in the near future: Candidates are 3080FE or 6800XT.

 

 

Was planning to upgrade ASAP too, but might hold off for now as I'm pretty happy with the performance as it is. That may change though, gotta try flying a few more DCS missions. Very encouraging though so far. All I really want is smooth performance and to be able to fly the campaigns, motion smoothing never bothers me and I tend to compensate for poor graphics by lowering the gamma in the options menu!

 

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I found 72 reprojected to 144 was quite smooth in IL2, certainly better than 80-with-frame-drops, but even at 72hz the reprojection gives artifacts such as the sun hiding behind window bars or ghosting of aircraft in a dogfight. But I can see why people would consider it smoother, especially if you achieve a locked 72/144 vs a sometimes-80 sometimes-40 mode.

 

In the other sim I settled on 60 reprojected to 120 because the CPU frame times are hideous in that game and I almost never maintain 80. Even with a 120 refresh target I sometimes find myself at 40 fps tripled to 120. But when flying jets around it's less of a problem because you're doing visual ID a lot less.

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Hum I'm getting really good perfomance in the other sim. Very smooth.  Even some missions that used to run like dog sh*t are playable now. But I don't judge it by anything but how it feels and I'm not even trying to hit constant 90! I tried the same settings with boneworks though and had to bring the RR down to 90 so its not as if I don't notice bad performance. It's strange. Updating DCS now though so who knows what will happen!

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On 1/1/2021 at 11:20 PM, TheSNAFU said:

This is despite the fps at or about 45 from my weak 1080. 

 

Your FPS is at 45 because the oculus app is turning on what is known as ASW. It pushes the framerate down to 45 but also smooths out performance so you don't feel like it is at 45fps.

 

It does this automatically when you are not hitting your target FPS e.g. 72, 80 or 90 (based on what you set in the oculus app).

 

It is actually pretty cool tech and will allow for better visuals and smooth gameplay but you will see anomalies, for me this particularly happens when I zoom in to try and identify a plane, that's when I can really see the lower framerate.

 

If you want to know what your actual FPS could be you need to open the oculus debug tool and turn off ASW. it keeps turning itself back on though (atleast for me it does)!

 

Or you lower your graphics settings till it magically jumps up to the higher framerate you set in the oculus home app.

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Was definately something to do with my 4k monitor I think. If I drop the res of the monitor down, 80 RR is no problem. That probably leaves me a bit of headroom as the performance at 144 is not affected (at least that I could see) though I will have to play around with it a bit more. I guess this means that the other sim is performing a lot better than it used to then and not the headset itself? Normany especially is very smooth now which hopefully means I can start flying some of those excellent campaigns!

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I had exactly the same experience with my Index and I always run it at 120Hz. I obviously never got to such fps with my 1080Ti, but it created a much smoother experience vs. 80/90Hz. It is probably a subjective personal perception that even if fps are in 70-90 range the "smoothness" of the picture is higher just by virtue of higher refresh rate. I now move to G2 and I am unable to use 60Hz mode because the flickering is unbearable, even at 90Hz despite 90 fps in IL-2 and SteamVR showing < 11ms (i.e. all green) I feel the picture is not as smooth as with my Index. I notice drops in fps much quicker in G2 vs. previously in Index. I am already getting used and notice the difference less and less, but this might offer an explanation. 

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21 hours ago, Wolf8312 said:

Hum I'm getting really good perfomance in the other sim. Very smooth.  Even some missions that used to run like dog sh*t are playable now. But I don't judge it by anything but how it feels and I'm not even trying to hit constant 90!

 

On one hand, I want to tell you to get FpsVR so you can measure the bottleneck and tune things (and believe me, CPU is a giant bottleneck in the jet sim). On the other hand, if you're having fun and perceive a smooth experience you maybe don't wanna wreck that by having some app tell you the actual framerate you're getting! 😉

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Alonzo said:

 

On one hand, I want to tell you to get FpsVR so you can measure the bottleneck and tune things (and believe me, CPU is a giant bottleneck in the jet sim). On the other hand, if you're having fun and perceive a smooth experience you maybe don't wanna wreck that by having some app tell you the actual framerate you're getting! 😉

 

Yeah exactly. Best performance I've ever had in DCS/GB and whatever the reason, and whatever the FPS, I'm just going to enjoy it. I steadfastly avoid FPS counters except in emergencies because I really do think they make people obsess or notice (and spend ages trying to fix/improve) things they would otherwise not have noticed. I also don't think they are that reliable or tell the whole story either sometimes. VR is brilliant, but I'm sure each and everyone of us know how much god damned time we all spend tweaking it. When I think about this performance now compared to 4 years ago (which was atrocious looking back) theres really no comparison! The technology on software (DCS/Steam VR) and hardware itself is getting better all the time I think, though looking forward to when the GTX 3080 comes down in price and I can actually find one somewhere.

Edited by Wolf8312
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On 1/7/2021 at 11:57 AM, ACG_Mephisto said:

I had exactly the same experience with my Index and I always run it at 120Hz. I obviously never got to such fps with my 1080Ti, but it created a much smoother experience vs. 80/90Hz. It is probably a subjective personal perception that even if fps are in 70-90 range the "smoothness" of the picture is higher just by virtue of higher refresh rate. I now move to G2 and I am unable to use 60Hz mode because the flickering is unbearable, even at 90Hz despite 90 fps in IL-2 and SteamVR showing < 11ms (i.e. all green) I feel the picture is not as smooth as with my Index. I notice drops in fps much quicker in G2 vs. previously in Index. I am already getting used and notice the difference less and less, but this might offer an explanation. 

 

Can you try to set Low Latency Mode to Ultra in Nvidia control panel and see if it's smoother? I feel it is but cannot decide if it's real or just placebo.

 

image.png.cef00650e822fc63196475d893cb3ea0.png 

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