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T34 v Tiger - Tiger Vulnerability


DD_Friar

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Salute

My squad had a session this morning where by we played hide and seek with 4 T34's trying to locate and destroy single Tiger who had positioned himself out of sight.

The Tiger was able to take out all 4 T34's as they tried to creep up on him.

In another round we had an issue of a T34 getting square behind the Tiger and fired numerous APHE rounds at the back of the Tiger. He fired multiple rounds from 200m down to point blank. he was able to disable the Tiger (cut the tracks etc) but was not able to deliver the "killer" blow.

 

Is this correct or could it be a similar issue that caused the hot fix for plane ammunition late yesterday evening?

 

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jollyjack

Tigers, they were quite indestructable with Shermans, but with a former game version i tried various planes.

Funny was that a Halberstadt with bombs was particularly successful and easier than with newer planes. I try it later with a t34 and 4.505:

 

- Blowing up Tigers 01.jpg

Edited by jollyjack
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2 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

Is this correct or could it be a similar issue that caused the hot fix for plane ammunition late yesterday evening?

I have a video where an enemy tank shoots in the back of my tiger and fails to kill me. This video is from December 9. There have been 2 updates since.

So if it's not correct, it's not related to yesterday's update..

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II./JG77_Manu*
On 12/30/2020 at 1:18 PM, DD_Friar said:

My squad had a session this morning where by we played hide and seek with 4 T34's trying to locate and destroy single Tiger who had positioned himself out of sight.

The Tiger was able to take out all 4 T34's as they tried to creep up on him.

In another round we had an issue of a T34 getting square behind the Tiger and fired numerous APHE rounds at the back of the Tiger. He fired multiple rounds from 200m down to point blank. he was able to disable the Tiger (cut the tracks etc) but was not able to deliver the "killer" blow.

I think there is nothing wrong, and this outcome is to be expected. "Killer blows" against Tigers from other Tanks were very very rare in WW2, even later on when faced by the 85s. Most Tigers broke down away from the frontline without hostilities and had to be blasted by the Germans themselves. The ones on the frontlines also rarely had killer blows, mostly they were disabled and finally some infantry would open the hatch and throw in some grenade - this should have happened in your scenario as well, shame that there is no infantry in game.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Kataphrakt

From a US study including tank casualties Operational Research in Northwest Europe, the Work of No. 2 Operational Research Section with 21 Army Group (PDF warning) page 205 (331 PDF), from the Tigers examined 80% were "brewed up", but they had an average of 3.25 penetrations (or 5.25 total hits) to be "brewed up". On average it took 2.6 penetrations to "knock out" the Tiger (4.2 hits). The quality of this data for the German tanks is not particularly great since it examines tanks pulled off the battlefield and which may have taken more hits after having been abandoned; however, only vehicles where the crew which knocked out said tank were available were counted in the data. Anyways, it seems the data shows that around 3 penetrating hits to "knock out" a Tiger is reasonable. 

 

For anyone wondering why the number of total hits per knock out is not that much higher than the penetrating hits per knock out: While there is not detailed hit-location data included for the Tiger, there is data for the Panther, and it shows that only 21% of the total hits on examined Panthers were to the front hull and front turret. At this point in the war, the allied tankers probably didnt bother trying to engage Tigers from the front, or if they did, the Tiger likely survived the encounter. 

 

If anyone has further primary-source data on this, especially if from the eastern front, i'd love to read it. 

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jollyjack

Tiger killing works best shooting them up it's ass with AP, at least with a sherman. Up front it's impossible IMO.

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pocketshaver

the Tiger was considered a mainline tank in most European militaries that had them until 1970. Secondary line defense until 1980 when russia and america had man portable weapons that could cut them apart. 

 

watch the film battle of the bulge with telly savalas. The tank battle at the end showed a lot of ACCURATE impact "not doing much" on the german tanks.

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Cybermat47
8 hours ago, pocketshaver said:

the Tiger was considered a mainline tank in most European militaries that had them until 1970. Secondary line defense until 1980 when russia and america had man portable weapons that could cut them apart. 

 

watch the film battle of the bulge with telly savalas. The tank battle at the end showed a lot of ACCURATE impact "not doing much" on the german tanks.

 

I think you're talking about the Leopard 1.

 

Leopard1_cfb_borden_2.jpg.7a852fa2dea4ed67bc1dad8cf334fda8.jpg

 

The Tiger I was a WWII tank produced from 1942-1944, and only saw service with Nazi Germany and Hungary (plus captured units fielded by Romania and France) until 1945. Even in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS it was a rare tank (only 1347 were built), and it was never mainline for anyone (except maintenance crews).

 

500245619_Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-299-1805-16_Nordfrankreich_Panzer_VI_(Tiger_I).2.jpg.19bf574acea804596da66ea176213d56.jpg

Edited by [Pb]Cybermat47
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Shampoo_Actual
13 minutes ago, [Pb]Cybermat47 said:

 

I think you're talking about the Leopard 1.

 

 

 

The Tiger I was a WWII tank produced from 1942-1944, and only saw service with Nazi Germany and Hungary (plus captured units fielded by Romania and France) until 1945. Even in the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS it was a rare tank (only 1347 were built), and it was never mainline for anyone (except maintenance crews).

 

 

 

This.

 

The French kept a few Panthers, the Swiss kept Hetzers until the late 60's and Egypt spent all their remaining PZKW 4's in the 1967 war.  I think Yugoslavia kept some PZIV/70's too.  But nobody had a Tiger after WW2.  LOL they were too busy buying from American and Soviet fire sale.

 

 

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  • 2 months later...
III/JG2Gustav05

T34 AI shoots tiger from 600m. Hit the turret close to turret ring, result= destroyed. The armor thickness in this portion is 100mm plus the turret ring bearing structure. It at least equals 100mm+ space armor. The worst case for receiving hit of 76mm is disable the turret rotation. Never heard that tiger has lethal weak spot on turret ring like panther. Dev team needs to re-visit the damage model of TC.

Il-2-2021-04-09-20-33-16.png

image-2021-04-09-204409.png

13.jpg

Edited by III/JG2Gustav05
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Peasant

At the time of BoK(summer 1943) the soviet forces began receiving their first supplies of tungsten subcaliber rounds for the 76mm guns. At first it wasnt much, rationed at only 4 rounds per gun but in July 1943 it was probably the only way for them to kill a Tiger I tank or a Ferdinand SPG.

Using these they would've been capable of defeating the side/rear armour at 300/600m at 30°/0° obliquity respectively and even to perforate the driver's plate at shorter ranges.

Edited by Peasant
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Voidhunger
3 hours ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said:

T34 AI shoots tiger from 600m. Hit the turret close to turret ring, result= destroyed. The armor thickness in this portion is 100mm plus the turret ring bearing structure. It at least equals 100mm+ space armor. The worst case for receiving hit of 76mm is disable the turret rotation. Never heard that tiger has lethal weak spot on turret ring like panther. Dev team needs to re-visit the damage model of TC.

Il-2-2021-04-09-20-33-16.png

image-2021-04-09-204409.png

13.jpg

 

Hi,

there is a picture from ww2 time where the round was deflected downwards from the turret like in panther. (I think this is modeled in game, not the penetration of the turret ring).

Some crew memeber will be probably wounded or dead, no complete destruction of the tank. I hope they will rework the current damage model (mainly the catastrophic explosions).

 

Honestly as much as i like the DVD visualy i would rather have the damage indicator from graviteam series.

Its easier to implement and you can see what type of round impacted, where and what damage was done.

Im curious how much it will be precise, in this case if the hit will be in the turret ring or somewhere on the turret and we will be again speculating if the round penetrated turret ring or was deflected downwards. we will see in two weeks

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III/JG2Gustav05

The deflection area close to turret ring is pretty tiny which is not like Panther's lower side of mantlet. You have to very luckly score a hit on the small edge of the ring close to the chin of turret. No turret blown away should happen even defection and penetration achieved because no main gun ammunition in this area. This same kind of kill for tiger with turret flying away in this game is not so rare. I met turret ring kill twice in 1 hour play.

Edited by III/JG2Gustav05
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Voidhunger
13 hours ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said:

The deflection area close to turret ring is pretty tiny which is not like Panther's lower side of mantlet. You have to very luckly score a hit on the small edge of the ring close to the chin of turret. No turret blown away should happen even defection and penetration achieved because no main gun ammunition in this area. This same kind of kill for tiger with turret flying away in this game is not so rare. I met turret ring kill twice in 1 hour play.

 

yes, those disastrous explosions need to be revisited (it was pointed out many times) but I think that they modeled deflection of the round from the matlet, just like in Panther, not the penetration of the turret ring.

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Voidhunger

Good news (I hope) is that in that image of the Tiger below you can see two penetration to the hatch on the the rear side of the turret and the Tiger is not burned out or completely destroyed.

I hope that it is screenshot from the game and not just from some developers tool to test damage (like the Camel damage test video from A. Petrovich).

 

But Han wrote that we will see revisited damage model later, so im not so sure.

 

Quote

Please be aware though that this tech is visual, it doesn't affect the physical interaction between the projectiles and aircraft and tank parts or systems. We're working on the improvements in the physical damage system as well, but we'll tell you more about that later. 

 

 

_DVD_Pz6_1.jpg.6bde0314a3012fae386b9517d44bf2f1.jpg

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III/JG2Gustav05
On 4/11/2021 at 12:41 AM, Voidhunger said:

 

yes, those disastrous explosions need to be revisited (it was pointed out many times) but I think that they modeled deflection of the round from the matlet, just like in Panther, not the penetration of the turret ring.

According to my screenshot, it is clearly a turret ring hit instead of mantlet.

On 4/11/2021 at 10:04 AM, [F.Circus]sith1144 said:

Hitting the turret ring on the tiger could disable it, a 6pdr to the turret ring is famously the shot that disabled tiger 131. Furthermore, even without penetration cannons could be a danger to the big German tanks, see for example this article https://www.tankarchives.ca/2020/02/thick-skin-of-german-beasts.html?m=1

This is not the news and nobody disagree with it. The problem here is high frequency of deflection penetration of roof armor and turret blown off kill.

On 4/11/2021 at 1:33 PM, Voidhunger said:

Good news (I hope) is that in that image of the Tiger below you can see two penetration to the hatch on the the rear side of the turret and the Tiger is not burned out or completely destroyed.

I hope that it is screenshot from the game and not just from some developers tool to test damage (like the Camel damage test video from A. Petrovich).

 

But Han wrote that we will see revisited damage model later, so im not so sure.

 

 

 

_DVD_Pz6_1.jpg.6bde0314a3012fae386b9517d44bf2f1.jpg

I remember that DVD is only visual stuff. No damage model overhaul with it.

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Voidhunger
4 hours ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said:
On 4/11/2021 at 9:41 AM, Voidhunger said:

 

According to my screenshot, it is clearly a turret ring hit instead of mantlet

I think that round trajectory is not so precise in game. Also like in panther there is some randomisation i think. You hit that spot between mantle and hull and there is % chance that the round will penetrateo/ is deflected downwards or nor.

4 hours ago, III/JG2Gustav05 said:

I remember that DVD is only visual stuff. No damage model overhaul with it.

Yes but maybe that screenshot was taken when the new damage tech was tested. If you can make those holes i the turret and the tank will be operational or crew unharmed it will look bad.

4 minutes ago, Voidhunger said:

I think that round trajectory is not so precise in game. Also like in panther there is some randomisation i think. You hit that spot between mantle and hull and there is % chance that the round will penetrateo/ is deflected downwards or nor.

 

Yes but maybe that screenshot was taken when the new damage tech was tested. If you can make those holes i the turret and the tank will be operational or crew unharmed it will look bad.

Tiger is not burned out i that screenshot.

So its a new damage model or the dvd is badly implemented imo

Edited by Voidhunger
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