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Question about G force in combat turns for Hurri


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I  have been flying recently with the superlative Hurricane II in the WOL server and Berloga. The Hurri has amazing turn ability, but I am running into problems with GLOC and was wondering if anyone had any advice, particularly when flying against 109F/Gs (but 190s too to a lesser extent).

 

Even when a 109 has ended up in a turnfight, I am often not able to sustain turns long enough to get on his 6. The 109 is often co-speed or somewhat faster but although the Hurri is happy to initially overhaul the 109 turn, my pilot becomes fatigued rapidly and I need to shallow out of the turn in greyout (or black out and die). Meanwhile looking behind me through the greyout the 109 seems to be now happily out-turning me at an apparently higher speed (after already turning for a while too) and then pulling lead and killing me.

 

Does it appear that 109 pilots just have higher G-tolerance? (there is a historical justification for this due to seating position). I'm not sure whether I should be trying high yo-yos to reduce G's, or actually throttling back to attempt a lower energy/speed turn, which normally seems a bad idea. Any advice?

 

Cheers, Bridgeman

 

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The benefit from the reclined seating position is modeled, but it should be no more than a few percent since it is given by the secant of the seat angle from the vertical.

 

In practice, it is important to consider fatigue. It is possible that an opponent joined the fight with less fatigue from previous maneuvers.

 

Additionally, a pursuing pilot often incurs greater accelerations due to the need to exceed the target's turn rate for a shot. The physiology model is complex enough that subtle differences in the acceleration profiles can be enough to turn the tables.

 

In most cases, decreasing power is a bad idea as it leaves you in a low-energy state that a skilled opponent should exploit.

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo
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50 minutes ago, Bridgeman said:

I  have been flying recently with the superlative Hurricane II in the WOL server and Berloga. The Hurri has amazing turn ability, but I am running into problems with GLOC and was wondering if anyone had any advice, particularly when flying against 109F/Gs (but 190s too to a lesser extent).

 

Even when a 109 has ended up in a turnfight, I am often not able to sustain turns long enough to get on his 6. The 109 is often co-speed or somewhat faster but although the Hurri is happy to initially overhaul the 109 turn, my pilot becomes fatigued rapidly and I need to shallow out of the turn in greyout (or black out and die). Meanwhile looking behind me through the greyout the 109 seems to be now happily out-turning me at an apparently higher speed (after already turning for a while too) and then pulling lead and killing me.

 

Does it appear that 109 pilots just have higher G-tolerance? (there is a historical justification for this due to seating position). I'm not sure whether I should be trying high yo-yos to reduce G's, or actually throttling back to attempt a lower energy/speed turn, which normally seems a bad idea. Any advice?

 

Cheers, Bridgeman

 

The seating position thing is modelled, but I don't think it makes a massive difference, especially as the hurricane's seat is reclined a bit as well. At lowish speed it's actually hard to pull more than 4g in a 109, so they generally have an inbuilt protection against fatigued pilots. In allied planes it's easy to be pulling 4 plus g for a significant amount of time without really noticing, which will fatigue your pilot

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Depends from your initial speed: 

If at the beginning you are pretty fast you have to be really careful about your manoeuvre.

You have a better turning ability, but this means that you will pass out easier than a German pilot.

So, try to be gentle on your stick and use some trick to turn without waist energy/pull to much G (like high yo-yo).

 

If the Bf accept the dogfight and both of you loss some speed then you can pull a little bit more and over turn him so easily...

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Try 10 deg of flaps.  I read that real life Hurry pilots used it.  I count to 4 in my head while holding down the flap lever and that usually gives about 10 deg.  Put 10 deg on for a bit and then reduce to zero as required.  On-off, on-off, etc, as required depending on speed and gravity effects.

 

P.S.  Use flaps against Bf 110 also.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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What you notice is something that baffled many (myself included). As the game stands, it's quite a bit easier in the allied planes to knock your pilot out. Once you reach that point, Gloc effectively becomes the turn rate limiting factor and that limit is reachable by the 109 aswell and they have better control at the grey out edge due to how the controls are modelled. Aka: you fly at the border of blackout, you fly to the 109s advantage, weirdly enough.

 

Here's a hint: at the onset of combat, try to quickly climb until you reach 180-200 mph. That greatly reduces the accidental fatigue you normally throw at your pilot and gets you into a more effective turning speed. While it isn't great from an energy perspective, you at least shelve some energy that would otherwise only work against you. Besides, the 109 is faster than you anyways, might aswell jump straight into the speed bracket your Hurricane is most comfortable at:)

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Here's my tip:

If you haven't, read all of https://il2sturmovik.com/news/582/dev-blog-263/


If you have then pay attention to this bit:

Quote

Warming up effect

Also, thanks to the improved calculation of vascular response, the new model has a “warming up” effect. It is when the first short maneuver at high +Gs is tolerated worse than the subsequent ones. It is also related to the compensatory response of the cardiovascular system, which needs time to “warm up” in order to maintain sufficient blood pressure in the head. If you pull, for example, +6G in one-two seconds, withstand it for five seconds (this is when you will get the partial “tunnel vision” effect), then reduce to 1G, pause for five seconds, and then create the same +6G for the same five seconds again at the same rate, then in the second case there will be no “tunnel vision” effect. But the same maneuver made third in a row will again lead to a partial "tunnel vision". But this is already because of a decrease in the tolerance limit due to excessively intense load without sufficient recovery time.

 

So based on this I try to pace how I enter a turning fight and for how long and try to "bank" a "warmed up" sustained pull for when I think I'll need it.

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20 hours ago, Talisman said:

Try 10 deg of flaps.  I read that real life Hurry pilots used it.  I count to 4 in my head while holding down the flap lever and that usually gives about 10 deg.  Put 10 deg on for a bit and then reduce to zero as required.  On-off, on-off, etc, as required depending on speed and gravity effects.

 

P.S.  Use flaps against Bf 110 also.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

10° of flaps will do it, but rather than counting you could use the indicator in the lower right of the cockpit.

timestamped to requiems vid:

 

also, you can have a laugh at the external fuel tank jettison instruction.

 

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1 hour ago, Melonfish said:

10° of flaps will do it, but rather than counting you could use the indicator in the lower right of the cockpit.

timestamped to requiems vid:

 

 

 

 

Yes, the indicator is good, but when my eyes are padlocked on the Hun and I am lining him up for my guns, or avoiding his, I don't want to be looking inside my cockpit.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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3 minutes ago, Talisman said:

 

Yes, the indicator is good, but when my eyes are padlocked on the Hun and I am lining him up for my guns, or avoiding his, I don't want to be looking inside my cockpit.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

 

That is why you may consider buying a JetSeat and SimShaker Wings software. With this combo, you will have a tactile cue (vibrations on your seat) which helps

you to anticipate those distinctive signs and helps you to fly clean. Since I use this combo, I really seldom blackout or come into a stall.

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On 12/30/2020 at 1:28 AM, Bridgeman said:

I  have been flying recently with the superlative Hurricane II in the WOL server and Berloga. The Hurri has amazing turn ability, but I am running into problems with GLOC and was wondering if anyone had any advice, particularly when flying against 109F/Gs (but 190s too to a lesser extent).

 

Even when a 109 has ended up in a turnfight, I am often not able to sustain turns long enough to get on his 6. The 109 is often co-speed or somewhat faster but although the Hurri is happy to initially overhaul the 109 turn, my pilot becomes fatigued rapidly and I need to shallow out of the turn in greyout (or black out and die). Meanwhile looking behind me through the greyout the 109 seems to be now happily out-turning me at an apparently higher speed (after already turning for a while too) and then pulling lead and killing me.

 

Does it appear that 109 pilots just have higher G-tolerance? (there is a historical justification for this due to seating position). I'm not sure whether I should be trying high yo-yos to reduce G's, or actually throttling back to attempt a lower energy/speed turn, which normally seems a bad idea. Any advice?

 

Cheers, Bridgeman

 

 

You may want to use something like TacView to get an approximation on how many G's your pulling versus your opponent. One of the thing that can take some getting used to is the notion that your opponent appears to be in a tighter turn or able to pull more G than you are and that is often because of positioning in the turn.

 

If you're both traveling about the same speed and are in a tight turn, you don't just want to follow the enemy, you want to put your gunsight ahead of them for a firing solution. That often means that you're positioned inside his turn at initiation and that you're going for a lead pursuit method so as to put your guns on target. But that is a more aggressive turn than the other guy.

 

The simplest way is to go or a lag pursuit and then gradually pull lead that way although in a Hurricane that may not be the best method because the 109 is faster and will start to gain separation. It's something that will need to be judged moment to moment.

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1 minute ago, ShamrockOneFive said:

 

You may want to use something like TacView to get an approximation on how many G's your pulling versus your opponent. One of the thing that can take some getting used to is the notion that your opponent appears to be in a tighter turn or able to pull more G than you are and that is often because of positioning in the turn.

 

If you're both traveling about the same speed and are in a tight turn, you don't just want to follow the enemy, you want to put your gunsight ahead of them for a firing solution. That often means that you're positioned inside his turn at initiation and that you're going for a lead pursuit method so as to put your guns on target. But that is a more aggressive turn than the other guy.

 

The simplest way is to go or a lag pursuit and then gradually pull lead that way although in a Hurricane that may not be the best method because the 109 is faster and will start to gain separation. It's something that will need to be judged moment to moment.

 

Good point, especially if you want to analyse your manoeuvers, your or your opponent's errors made. But on the other hand, you may also know very well - and I'm 100% sure

you do - pulling G's is not the same on every plane. Some are more forgiving, others not. That's why I suggested this JetSeat / SSW combo, because you get a slightly better

feeling when things start to get dangerous and finally it also helps you to judge if a snapshot might be successful or if you're going to loose the control of your aircraft.

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15 minutes ago, THERION said:

 

Good point, especially if you want to analyse your manoeuvers, your or your opponent's errors made. But on the other hand, you may also know very well - and I'm 100% sure

you do - pulling G's is not the same on every plane. Some are more forgiving, others not. That's why I suggested this JetSeat / SSW combo, because you get a slightly better

feeling when things start to get dangerous and finally it also helps you to judge if a snapshot might be successful or if you're going to loose the control of your aircraft.

 

That's a great point too. Hurricane has an effective elevator and that makes it easier, without that added feel, of getting into more G and more trouble. I see that happen even more with folks flying the Tempest.

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On 12/30/2020 at 7:28 AM, Bridgeman said:

Even when a 109 has ended up in a turnfight, I am often not able to sustain turns long enough to get on his 6.

Very simple, and same is happenig usually to Spit pilots. You were jerking her around and started your turn behind the 109 in a state of higher fatigue than the 109 driver. In the 109, you don't do high spikes in g load when just maneuvering around, in the British rides, ust a slight pull will make you do 4 or 5 g's, may it be just for a short time. Thus the difference in sustaining g forces when it matters. You have (unconciously) put on more strain on the pilot in the Britsh plane.

 

Get used to not exceed 2.5 g's in just flying places and suddenly you WILL turn into any 109 easily with the Hurri.

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On 12/31/2020 at 11:45 AM, THERION said:

 

That is why you may consider buying a JetSeat and SimShaker Wings software. With this combo, you will have a tactile cue (vibrations on your seat) which helps

you to anticipate those distinctive signs and helps you to fly clean. Since I use this combo, I really seldom blackout or come into a stall.

 

Glad you mention it, as that is just what I have and highly recommend :)

 

In fact, more recently I replaced my JetSeat with the JetPad and the new motors are even better for providing feedback in conjunction with the SimShaker software.  I also use a force feedback joystick, the good old MSFF2.  Plus haptic feedback headphones, which are great.  Together with VR and IL-2 GB this makes a great flight simulation :)

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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If its one on one, what the guy above said, you need to slow down, smaller slower radius equal less G, and he can never match you, not in any 109.  But your going to have to understand what a real lead turn is and stay ahead of any switch in planes.  Dead is the 109 who refuses to disengage early, dependent on what guns you brought.

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On 12/31/2020 at 6:45 AM, THERION said:

 

That is why you may consider buying a JetSeat and SimShaker Wings software. With this combo, you will have a tactile cue (vibrations on your seat) which helps

you to anticipate those distinctive signs and helps you to fly clean. Since I use this combo, I really seldom blackout or come into a stall.

This is why I still use the 20 yr old MS SideWinder Force Feedback 2 until the Gauss Force Feedback Joystick Base with my currently boxed VPC MongoosT-50CM2 :salute:

 

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23 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

This is why I still use the 20 yr old MS SideWinder Force Feedback 2 until the Gauss Force Feedback Joystick Base with my currently boxed VPC MongoosT-50CM2 :salute:

 

 

Hi X-Man,

 

I use the MSFF2 too.  Whenever you manage to get your Gauss Force Feedback Joystick Base up and running I would be very interested in your experience and thoughts about it in comparison with the MSFF2.  Please do let us know how you get on with it.  Thanks in anticipation.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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