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Dynamic Campaigns - Large room for improvements


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Dear All, 

 

I don't want to offend the devs, so let me express that this sim is basically suberb. The graphics and flight dynamics is amazing at all, but unfortunately the sim experience is limited by the incorrect campaign mechanism. 

 

Please find below my impressions from BoS (replayed after a couple of months), which are worth to correct later on. 

 

- The generated missions are monotonous. There is four categories (bomber escort, free hunting, river crossing cover, intercept) with insignificant changes in locations, opponents. After a couple of sortie you can predict what will happen. For eg. the number of generated enemies are almost always the same. 

 

- Incorrect 6 and 9 plane German squads. The LW always fly in 2-4-8-12 formations (Kette, Rotte, Schwarm, Staffel, etc.) since the Spanis Civil War. The Wingman ("Katschmarek") never looses the leader. The basic element of WWII air combat is a pair. (Although the VVS is ok, with its three plane squads - sometimes whithout a radio - till early 1943.)

 

- Pointless "long-haul" chasing. After an air combat the enemy always chases your flight even if their planes are damaged or slower or they are fewer. Although Stalingrad might have be an exception, with so many heroic Russian pilots, this seems to be a bad "rule" in the AI. This is irreal. 

 

- Ground attack and bomber planes don't bomb their targets. If you fly a long haul escort mission (which is approx. 60% of the generated missions in BoS), the escorted planes do not destroy their targets, above all, they turn back with their bomb loads! It is also surreal.  

 

Wrong LW escort method. The only option is close escort, though the LW tactic was totally differrent (the VVS is ok again). Usually a small squad penetrated into the enemy airspace before the bombers arrive and secure the tartget area. The other part of the flight is orbited around the bombers in a larger circle or followed them from a distance. 

 

- Wrong bomber attack guidance. In BoS the generated bomber missions are usually directed against the Northern sector of the front instead of attacking to the east where the main Soviet forces (and the shockingly modelled Stalingrad itself) can be found. Yes, there were also Soviet troops, but that sector is mainly (but not exclusively) belonged to the FARR (Royal Romanian Air Force). Above all worth modelling the first large scale air attack against the City on the 23rd August 1942.   

 

- Irreal outcomes of mission generation in the campaign menu. If you are not the part of a mission, the generated outcome is funny, because your squadron mates become "aces" (and in comparison when you fly with them, they are almost useless and usually waste their ammos, and become victims) and the generated flight duration is only 4-8 minutes! I also do not feel the change of their level of experience, whothout mentioning that there where no squadron in the LW whithout any claim at campaign start. 

 

Please consider my impressions, those are not extra wishes, just lonely requests for correcting the existing functions.

 

Best, 

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I agree, I've been hoping for dynamic campaign improvements for a long while, especially Bodeplatte careers. Since it was released, the P-38 and P-51 dont spawn if you fly german, you always fight Tempests and Thunderbolts. I mentionned it countless times here, I think they actually know about it but still keep releasing updates without fixing this issue. Annoying. You make some other valid points that I hope will be considered too....eventually....

 

In the meantime the only answer you'll get is to actually mod it with PWCG! 

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On 12/24/2020 at 7:39 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I agree, I've been hoping for dynamic campaign improvements for a long while, especially Bodeplatte careers. Since it was released, the P-38 and P-51 dont spawn if you fly german, you always fight Tempests and Thunderbolts. I mentionned it countless times here, I think they actually know about it but still keep releasing updates without fixing this issue. Annoying. You make some other valid points that I hope will be considered too....eventually....

 

In the meantime the only answer you'll get is to actually mod it with PWCG! 

 

Thanks. I will try it. 

On 12/24/2020 at 7:39 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I agree, I've been hoping for dynamic campaign improvements for a long while, especially Bodeplatte careers. Since it was released, the P-38 and P-51 dont spawn if you fly german, you always fight Tempests and Thunderbolts. I mentionned it countless times here, I think they actually know about it but still keep releasing updates without fixing this issue. Annoying. You make some other valid points that I hope will be considered too....eventually....

 

In the meantime the only answer you'll get is to actually mod it with PWCG! 

 

image.thumb.png.61501eb16cd6def6f7d2cd2e47556b28.png

 

image.thumb.png.2420e20b93b7bd6cf06a50ff1015af63.png

 

Tried, not working for me. I have the latest Java. Exactly this is the reson of not liking 3rd party add-ons although I am pretty sure that this might be a magnificent tool. 

 

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Java website is very badly done and there are 90% chances you installed java32bit, instead of java64bit.

 

Try again, in a calm environment, with maximum focus.

 

Don't know about solo play, but using PWCG in coop needs also some attention.

 

Probably less than fighting in a Mig-3, but still.

 

Good luck.

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On 12/23/2020 at 9:56 AM, Styx13 said:

- Ground attack and bomber planes don't bomb their targets. If you fly a long haul escort mission (which is approx. 60% of the generated missions in BoS), the escorted planes do not destroy their targets, above all, they turn back with their bomb loads! It is also surreal.  

This is not what I experience. The bombers and ground attack aircrafts I escort drop their bombs. Ground attackers usually attack artillery units and, if not attacked by enemy fighters, usually destroy them completely, before returning to their base.

Bombers usually destroy some industy buildings on their bombings.

It seems a bit different for enemy bombers and ground attack aircrafts, which do a lot of circling in the target area. Additionally, it might be, that still, only the leader of bomber flights drops his bombs, but I am not sure if that is still the case.

What is absolutely weird about enemy bomber behaviour is, when you destroy or heavily damage one bomber of a three ship formation, the other two bombers of this formation jettison their bombs and RTB. So to intercept a nine bomber attack, you only need to attack three bombers, one of each three ship formation.

Another point, why don't bombers, you escort, fly in this three ship formations, enemy bombers do, but in a large nine ship V? Same, of course, if you fly bomber or Stuka.

 

On 12/23/2020 at 9:56 AM, Styx13 said:

- Irreal outcomes of mission generation in the campaign menu. If you are not the part of a mission, the generated outcome is funny, because your squadron mates become "aces" (and in comparison when you fly with them, they are almost useless and usually waste their ammos, and become victims) and the generated flight duration is only 4-8 minutes!

And the kills they get credited for in the non player missions are about 90% large aircrafts (bombers), even when intercepting ground attack aircrafts, only few fighters, never ground attack aircrafts.

And, yes, they are pretty useless in your missions. It would be much more realistic, if they would get more kills, becaus the player, then would get less. Now you often go out of a mission with four or five kills and the AI none. If they would get some kills, there would be less enemies, to kill, for you, which would add a lot to realism. But......., well, then the fighter jockeys would not be satisfied, because they couldn't be an ace in every mission.

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5 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

This is not what I experience. The bombers and ground attack aircrafts I escort drop their bombs. Ground attackers usually attack artillery units and, if not attacked by enemy fighters, usually destroy them completely, before returning to their base.

Bombers usually destroy some industy buildings on their bombings.

It seems a bit different for enemy bombers and ground attack aircrafts, which do a lot of circling in the target area. Additionally, it might be, that still, only the leader of bomber flights drops his bombs, but I am not sure if that is still the case.

 

 

Try a Me262 campaign. Not the commando Nowotny one but a fighter/bomber one. Every mission is a ground attack one, by default a flight of 4x Me262s so you and 3x impotent AI Me262s. The AI is TERRIBLE. No way it was beta tested properly. 90% of the time the AI wont even drop their bombs and act like vegetables around the target and they'll do nothing even when engaged by tempests. You order them to engage enemy fighters and....you dont even know if they try or not...but they wont jettison their loadouts and will end up getting wrecked without even trying to fight back. Every mission, you are the only Me262 to make it back home, so realistic.

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26 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

Try a Me262 campaign. Not the commando Nowotny one but a fighter/bomber one. Every mission is a ground attack one, by default a flight of 4x Me262s so you and 3x impotent AI Me262s. The AI is TERRIBLE. No way it was beta tested properly. 90% of the time the AI wont even drop their bombs and act like vegetables around the target and they'll do nothing even when engaged by tempests. You order them to engage enemy fighters and....you dont even know if they try or not...but they wont jettison their loadouts and will end up getting wrecked without even trying to fight back. Every mission, you are the only Me262 to make it back home, so realistic.

Yes, I know. I already started a 262 fighter bomber career. I didn't fly many missions. They are not really better in Kommando Nowotny. Always turning with the British fighters. Never exploiting their speed advantage to attack the bombers.

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33 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Yes, I know. I already started a 262 fighter bomber career. I didn't fly many missions. They are not really better in Kommando Nowotny. Always turning with the British fighters. Never exploiting their speed advantage to attack the bombers.

 

True, the AI cant fly the Me262 at all. But at least in commando Nowotny they were trying....but when carrying loadouts, they do nothing, sitting ducks, flying straight not even outrunning the opponent. Pathetic. I have been requested to provide proofs and tracks about that so the devs would check it out. But why on Earth is this necessary when all you have to do is fly a SINGLE ME262 MISSION with AI wingmen to fully witness the impotence of the AI. Its not like it was a hard to reproduce bug or something...I'm pretty sure the devs can do basic testing of their own game right? 

 

I'm ok to help devs by producing tracks about weird intermittent bugs but this is like a solid failure that you can fully experience by testing it for like 20 minutes. You know, basic beta testing.

Edited by I./JG52_Woutwocampe
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If you want to see it noticed and fixed by the devs quicker, just record some tracks and put it in the bug forum. It is very easy to do and the bug forum is checked almost daily by one of the devs who can confirm it and put it on their list of things to work on. 

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On 12/24/2020 at 7:39 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

I agree, I've been hoping for dynamic campaign improvements for a long while, especially Bodeplatte careers. Since it was released, the P-38 and P-51 dont spawn if you fly german, you always fight Tempests and Thunderbolts. I mentionned it countless times here, I think they actually know about it but still keep releasing updates without fixing this issue. Annoying. You make some other valid points that I hope will be considered too....eventually....

 

In the meantime the only answer you'll get is to actually mod it with PWCG! 

 

I think PWCG shows the weakness of the career mode and that is you can not change much,while in PWCG there are a lot of aspects you can adjust nearly to your taste.  People in the free world always want a choice that suits to its needs. As an sample the AI behavior, even as 1C make it super realistic, 80% will dislike this AI, but make it adjustable (divided in a few AI aspects) and it can be set to everyone's needs. 

 

Edited by Dutch2
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4 hours ago, Dutch2 said:

 

I think PWCG shows the weakness of the career mode and that is you can not change much, in PWCG there are a lot of aspects you can adjust nearly to your taste.  People in the free world always want a choice that suits to its needs. As an sample the AI behavior, even as 1C make it super realistic, 80% will dislike this AI, but make it adjustable (divided in a few AI aspects) and it can be set to everyone's needs. 

 

 

You know, Im not asking for an intricate set of manageable variables for the campaigns, just the basics would be welcomed. Like proper AI planes spawning in the proper theaters of operation? More than 10000 Yak 9s were built. I have yet to see a single one in any campaign. The P-38 and P-51 being on vacation since Bodeplatte was released in an aberration and there's absolutely no excuse for the fact that after like 12 updates its not fixed yet.

 

Also, still about Bodeplatte's careers, theres nothing dynamic to it. All the missions in my Spit IX career are ground troops cover, above the same spot, 8 of us take off and we always meet 190As. Sometimes there's a few 109's. Where are the Doras? And the 262s? Its always the same single mission repeating itself over and over, thats no dynamic campaign! The original super mario bros game was more dynamic than that ffs.

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5 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

You know, Im not asking for an intricate set of manageable variables for the campaigns, just the basics would be welcomed. Like proper AI planes spawning in the proper theaters of operation? More than 10000 Yak 9s were built. I have yet to see a single one in any campaign. The P-38 and P-51 being on vacation since Bodeplatte was released in an aberration and there's absolutely no excuse for the fact that after like 12 updates its not fixed yet.

 

Also, still about Bodeplatte's careers, theres nothing dynamic to it. All the missions in my Spit IX career are ground troops cover, above the same spot, 8 of us take off and we always meet 190As. Sometimes there's a few 109's. Where are the Doras? And the 262s? Its always the same single mission repeating itself over and over, thats no dynamic campaign! The original super mario bros game was more dynamic than that ffs.

Then use the PWCG and you will notice a lot of your request here can be adjusted to your needs.  Maybe not all of them or you have to change the JSON files, as right now I'm tying to include 3 extra squadrons and 2 female pilots. The only problem; PWCG is not integrated in BoX, because 1C still refuses to give permission, like in RoF to make an PWCG-Gui for using the CG inside the BoX game.  I have asked @Jason_Williams several times about the PWCG-GUI in this forum, but it seems no interest from 1C. 

 

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On 12/28/2020 at 5:36 PM, KGM_Roll said:

Java website is very badly done and there are 90% chances you installed java32bit, instead of java64bit.

 

Try again, in a calm environment, with maximum focus.

 

Don't know about solo play, but using PWCG in coop needs also some attention.

 

Probably less than fighting in a Mig-3, but still.

 

Good luck.

 

Thanks, it worked. 🙂

 

On 12/29/2020 at 6:19 PM, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

True, the AI cant fly the Me262 at all. But at least in commando Nowotny they were trying....but when carrying loadouts, they do nothing, sitting ducks, flying straight not even outrunning the opponent. Pathetic. I have been requested to provide proofs and tracks about that so the devs would check it out. But why on Earth is this necessary when all you have to do is fly a SINGLE ME262 MISSION with AI wingmen to fully witness the impotence of the AI. Its not like it was a hard to reproduce bug or something...I'm pretty sure the devs can do basic testing of their own game right? 

 

I'm ok to help devs by producing tracks about weird intermittent bugs but this is like a solid failure that you can fully experience by testing it for like 20 minutes. You know, basic beta testing.

 

Unfortunately this will be the case till the developers uses basically a WWI AI engine (coming from Rise of Flight) in a WWII air combat sim. Ridiculous. At least we learnt the possible reaction of von Richthoffen on the the fighter jet. 🙂 

On 12/29/2020 at 6:56 PM, Q_Walker said:

If you want to see it noticed and fixed by the devs quicker, just record some tracks and put it in the bug forum. It is very easy to do and the bug forum is checked almost daily by one of the devs who can confirm it and put it on their list of things to work on. 

 

Unfortunately I can't share your optimism. This is a hard question (not a bug), and can be seen as a critic to the business modell because questioning basic issues. Therefore they immediately put these kind of topics in the complaints sector. 😞  

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SOLO CAMPAIGN SHORT TEST

 

I choose I./JG 51 both in PWCG and Il-2 BoS. My sum-up is hereunder:

 

- Although PWCG generates better, more realistic missions, it puts the I./JG 51 (equipped with FW 190A-3's) in the Kuban-sector in September 1942 where it never fought, but the accurate front line is very impressive. No change in the AI of your team-mates, so the are not (or limitedly) responding to the WWI-style orders, and they are almost useless in air combat. (But at least not greens sits in the cockpits like in BoS as this unit was on of the most experienced in 1942/43.) 

 

- In terms of BoS the I./JG 51 never have been in the Stalingrad area as well. Forgiveable, but the the devs put this unit into BoS due to obvious business reasons as the FW 190A-3 was a collector's plane. But instead of playing with "easy-to-research" historical facts (BTW the historical background of the franchise is acceptable), the devs also might have been able to use the Moscow map, since I./JG 51 fought in the Vyazma area from October 1942 - January 1943. (Where it was transferred near to Orel.)

 

So PWCG is better in functions, and a brilliant initiative to enhance the Il-2 franchise, but it is quite comlicated to use (shifting between this and the sim for eg.) and in some aspects historically incorrect. And - agreeing with much opinion here - both campaign generator might be useless until the basic simulation AI is insufficient.          

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1 hour ago, TWC_Sp00k said:

Why is it some people are never just happy with what they have. Are you not entertained?

 

Some people? All people. That's what Human Beings do.

 

More specifically, however, there are some problems that need fixing and it's reasonable for people to ask those problems be fixed. Nothing will ever be perfect, but there many small, reasonable changes in this list that should, and I trust will be, fixed one day. Until then, I appreciate what we have so far, while hoping for more.

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2 minutes ago, cardboard_killer said:

Some people? All people. That's what Human Beings do.

 

Mmm... I don't know. Some are spoiled, others not. It is also a question of sensible upbringing and decency.

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I think whats said in this topic so far is reasonnable. No one requested all the planes that served to be included nor an AI that would completely and accurately emulate a human opponent. And no one said Great battles was a dud. In many aspects it is fantastic, but there are some glaring issues and flaws that are mostly ignored update after update and you keep wondering why in Earth its aint fixed yet?

 

Lets be honest, some games from the 90's like European airwar had better in flight orders system and the concept of wingmen has been implemented in all ww2 air sim I've ever tried ...before. In Great battles, its just chaotic but entertaining furballs with almost no strategy. Wether you tell your squadron to attack enemy planes or cover you see absolutely no difference in the behavior. You tell your mates to cover you but they'll keep emptying their ammo on flying wrecks trying to get away to belly land. And I am not optimistic much about the possibility of a major overhaul and improvement for these issues. Not the way the game/AI has been made in the first place. Realistically what can the devs do to fix this? I think it would be huge and require a lot of work, to improve SP experience while MP is getting most of the attention nowadays.

 

But for things like the P-38 and P-51 not spawning, stuff like that, Im shocked its still a thing, it cant be that hard to fix ffs. The day I got the Hurricane I've started to see it sporadically in BOM. So devs, do something for the lightning and mustangs! Take the few hours needed to fix that please! 

Edited by I./JG52_Woutwocampe
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On 12/31/2020 at 3:16 AM, Styx13 said:

Unfortunately I can't share your optimism. This is a hard question (not a bug), and can be seen as a critic to the business modell because questioning basic issues. Therefore they immediately put these kind of topics in the complaints sector. 😞  

 

I understand that some of those are difficult to change from the player's standing point. Two of the points that you made in your original post can be changed if you record them and report them in the bug section of the forum. Enemies chasing your flight back to your base or endlessly following you has been worked on and is far better than it used to be. If you do still see the issue though, make a quick track recording with it and put it in the bug section. Ground attackers and bombers not bombing/attacking their target, again record the issue and report it so that the devs know that this is an issue. 

 

I do have optimism for this game, I have no problem reporting things so that the devs can recognize changes that need to be made. The devs want to fix these things, but for some of the bugs, if they don't know that they exist because people don't take the initiative to report them, then it is unlikely that they will be fixed. Instead of having these back and forth discussions in the complaints section, we should be trying to help improve the game in ways that we specifically can. 

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On 12/31/2020 at 7:09 AM, Styx13 said:

SOLO CAMPAIGN SHORT TEST

 

I choose I./JG 51 both in PWCG and Il-2 BoS. My sum-up is hereunder:

 

- Although PWCG generates better, more realistic missions, it puts the I./JG 51 (equipped with FW 190A-3's) in the Kuban-sector in September 1942 where it never fought, but the accurate front line is very impressive. No change in the AI of your team-mates, so the are not (or limitedly) responding to the WWI-style orders, and they are almost useless in air combat. (But at least not greens sits in the cockpits like in BoS as this unit was on of the most experienced in 1942/43.) 

 

- In terms of BoS the I./JG 51 never have been in the Stalingrad area as well. Forgiveable, but the the devs put this unit into BoS due to obvious business reasons as the FW 190A-3 was a collector's plane. But instead of playing with "easy-to-research" historical facts (BTW the historical background of the franchise is acceptable), the devs also might have been able to use the Moscow map, since I./JG 51 fought in the Vyazma area from October 1942 - January 1943. (Where it was transferred near to Orel.)

 

So PWCG is better in functions, and a brilliant initiative to enhance the Il-2 franchise, but it is quite comlicated to use (shifting between this and the sim for eg.) and in some aspects historically incorrect. And - agreeing with much opinion here - both campaign generator might be useless until the basic simulation AI is insufficient.          

 

Unit placement is intentionally not historical.  It is based on front line placement in game which is also not perfectly historical.  I am trying to recreate a feel more than a history lesson, at the same time also not throwing history out the window.  The units are mostly right and the placement is also mostly right but all optimized for an enjoyable experience within the limitations like imperfect front line placement, available airfields, and the desire of most players not to have to fly 40 minutes to reach the front.

 

In the end: is it fun?  That is what is most important to me.  If it is not then maybe the issue can be addressed.  If the issue cannot be addressed, or if I simply don't agree with the proposal, then PWCG might not be the right thing.  

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