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Bf109s able to "stand" on their elevators in hard turns?


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1 hour ago, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

 

That's fairly obvious, your prior comment makes it out that the video clip I presented is mine, my original response to your comment (which was rudely deleted) stated that the clip actually belonged the Scharfi and not me, which was very obvious also.

 

Griff

 

I was referring to the "Bf 109 standing on its tail" video.

If you didn't make the video, I wouldn't post someone else's video to make an FM argument without knowing the game settings of said video.

 

Happy (virtual) hunting!

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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1 hour ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

I was referring to the "Bf 109 standing on its tail" video.

If you didn't make the video, I wouldn't post someone else's video to make an FM argument without knowing the game settings of said video.

 

Happy (virtual) hunting!

 

What are you even on about dude, If it's evidence that backs up my point, from an impartial source no less, then I am going to use that evidence.

 

Griff

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2 hours ago, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

 

What are you even on about dude, If it's evidence that backs up my point, from an impartial source no less, then I am going to use that evidence.

 

Griff

 

What I am about is pure logic. If any of the field below are checked in your or the servers "options", you do not have a case

 

image.png.a09ab1815ea58620c4b124bfd44debc9.png

 

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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14 hours ago, JG7_X-Man said:

 

What I am about is pure logic. If any of the field below are checked in your or the servers "options", you do not have a case

 

image.png.a09ab1815ea58620c4b124bfd44debc9.png

 

 

Are you quite mad?

 

I don't get to set the rules on the servers that people fly on lmao.

 

I have already said a plethora of times that the video isn't mine and that it belongs to Scharfi, do you expect me to set the rules on the servers she plays on?

 

Also, thankfully, you don't get to decide whether I have a case or not, this whole post is for people to lay out their observations of 109 behaviour, there are similar threads for the Spitfire, Tempest, P51 and 190, I don't see you getting anal on those posts about the legitimacy of the evidence collected.

 

I am quite certain that nearly everyone here has seen planes behave like UFOs, I am asking for some added realism to these kites, something that you should be all for if you value balance and fair play.

 

- Griff

 

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@JG7_X-Man and others who are trying to assist here. I appreciate your comments, and can see what you're trying to do.

 

There's no point continuing to try and help diagnose the situation. Some people have made it clear they are just looking for other people to agree with them to validate their viewpoints and are looking for a group of people or an aircraft to blame and see this as fair play. They have ignored the fact there have been seven threads discussing this subject and they aren't interested unless you agree with them.

 

The original video was taken just after a patch that temporarily caused the breaking of the game's DM, allowing all aircraft to keep flying under strange circumstances - this has since been dealt with using a hot-fix that was mentioned earlier.

 

If you try to ask these people to explain themselves and their rationale they will either get defensive or give you a word salad.

 

Leave them to it and put them on the ignore list, that's what I'm doing now.

 

It's the only thing left to do when people don't take responsibility for their words or actions.

Edited by Aurora_Stealth
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38 minutes ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

 

If you try to ask these people to explain themselves and their rationale they will either get defensive or give you a word salad.

 

 

 

An apt description of what the JG mafia and 109 frequent fliers do on every thread regarding Axis balance and improvement, including the allied 50 cal threads.

 

This thread is for people to note what they have observed as "unrealistic" flight characteristics of the 109 series, as I have already mentioned, there are threads for several kites, not all of them axis, which people lay out what they have witnessed as unrealistic behavior.

 

It's easy to shit all over people that don't share your opinion, I ask you to refrain from doing so here, this is a post in the interest of investigation and balance, specifically that of the 109s.

 

EDIT: If anyone here possesses the power to move this thread to the FM/DM discussion category here on the forums then be my guest.

 

- Griff

Edited by -=No.66=-Griff1999
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1 hour ago, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

 

An apt description of what the JG mafia and 109 frequent fliers do on every thread regarding Axis balance and improvement, including the allied 50 cal threads.

 

This thread is for people to note what they have observed as "unrealistic" flight characteristics of the 109 series, as I have already mentioned, there are threads for several kites, not all of them axis, which people lay out what they have witnessed as unrealistic behavior.

 

It's easy to shit all over people that don't share your opinion, I ask you to refrain from doing so here, this is a post in the interest of investigation and balance, specifically that of the 109s.

 

EDIT: If anyone here possesses the power to move this thread to the FM/DM discussion category here on the forums then be my guest.

 

- Griff

 

It didn't start off this way.

 

On 12/9/2020 at 1:07 AM, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

Hi chaps,

 

I was wondering if anyone else has noticed this phenomenon with the later models of 109 (G2 and later) where they are able to sustain 5G or above for a super long time in tight turn fights, my squadron and I have been turned inside of whilst in Spitfires at the very edge of black out (with the new FM).

 

We'll be doing the proper engine management and flap releasing for the maintaining of lower speed and higher speed, 5G+ turns and there will be a 109 that comes screaming in from altitude that manages to turn inside of us, and maintain the inside turn. This happens regardless of the speed we collectively travel at.

 

It is always a 109 achieving these types of turn, 190s are not able to do this.

 

I was always under the impression that the 109's main advantage was speed and the spit had superior turn capability?

 

Anybody else witnessed elevator standing from 109s?

 

 

The video was an attempt to more the goal post from the original how can a 109 out turn my spit. 

 

Just a small note that has been explained already; you do not have any data to support any assertion, except for your "feelings" that something is wrong. Your only defense is to make unfounded accusation of bias. Bias against what, I have no idea. 

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7 minutes ago, [=PzG=]-FlyinPinkPanther said:

 

It didn't start off this way.

 

 

The video was an attempt to more the goal post from the original how can a 109 out turn my spit. 

 

Just a small note that has been explained already; you do not have any data to support any assertion, except for your "feelings" that something is wrong. Your only defense is to make unfounded accusation of bias. Bias against what, I have no idea. 

 

The video was used as a counter argument to "There's nothing wrong with the FM" which gets said in every single FM discussion on these forums.

 

The server we fly on doesn't allow the use of TACVIEW full stop so we can't get data in that way, It's not "feelings" it's first hand experience that prompted the thread being made.

 

If you notice how I asked for other people to put their experiences in here so we get a fuller picture, so far all you have done is be totally against any kind of investigative stance toward the 109s FM/DM, you yourself could collate evidence against what I'm saying if you believe the opposite of it with such conviction.

 

Are we supposed to just ignore the fact that the 109s frequently UFO without any kind of consequence to velocity, when was the last time you managed to actually flat spin a 109 by janking the stick back and forward?

 

What about near indestructible tail sections from dead six attacks?

 

Are these non issues in your mind?

 

- Griff

 

 

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2 hours ago, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

Also, thankfully, you don't get to decide whether I have a case or not, this whole post is for people to lay out their observations of 109 behaviour, there are similar threads for the Spitfire, Tempest, P51 and 190, I don't see you getting anal on those posts about the legitimacy of the evidence collected.

 

I really want the discussion to be civil and constructive, so please don't take my post here as an attack, but I have to ask : where is the evidence collected for your original claims?  Your original claims are (I condense from posts on first page, please point out if I missed something, am misrepresenting something or badly interpreting something) : 

Anybody else witnessed elevator standing from 109s? (from post NR 1)

Imo, it's down to inaccurate or recently deprecated modelling of the FM for the later 109s. Some of the chaps think it's to do with inaccurate stabiliser problems within the 109 FM. (From post NR12)

Again though, this post is to see if anyone has encountered situations where the 109 is fully standing on their elevator within turn fights, which should not be possible with the new physiology. (from post NR 12 also)

 

It is very understandable that you want an accurate FM for the 109s. However,  the claims in this post (related to 109's FM and ability to pull G's) are supported by what can only be considered as anecdotal evidence, as I and others pointed out. Anecdotal evidence is not solid evidence. It might be an indication that something is wrong, but just isn't enough in itself. Some examples about what I mean as anecdotal evidence provided (non-exhaustive list, feel free to add if I missed some) : 

109 (G2 and later) where they are able to sustain 5G or above for a super long time in tight turn fights (post NR 1)

- 109 that comes screaming in from altitude that manages to turn inside of us, and maintain the inside turn. (post NR 1)

I made this post is that I've seen it happen to multiple squadron-mates, some of which are way way better than myself. (Post NR 12)

 It's not "feelings" it's first hand experience that prompted the thread being made (from last post just above. FYI : your first hand experience is anecdotal experience to me)

 

You even mentioned in a later post : "The chaps and I will be doing some testing later tonight so we'll try and get a good bit of evidence to further back up what we're saying." --> As far as I could see we haven't been provided any of this evidence. Could we see the video's/tracks/results? Could we know about the methodology to obtain these results? Properly done tests with demonstrably weird 109 behaviour would lend great support to your claims.

 

Now, in your post above that I quote, you observe that you are "getting anal on those posts about the legitimacy of the evidence collected." Which is true, some chaps write with more venom than would be courteous, but considering the evidence you presented as of this date, is completely justified. The evidence you use to back up your claims is, to put it politely, just not solid at all. 

 

 

I will reiterate what I wrote in a previous post : if you provide track(s) or video(s) showing the 109's behaviour(s) that you find implausible/impossible, I will gladly watch. If I have objections, I will be able to formulate them more precisely, and the subsequent discussion will be more focused. If I happen to be in agreement with your statements, I'll be that much more convinced of your case. The variation of my opinion on the subject depends on the strength of the evidence. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

The video was used as a counter argument to "There's nothing wrong with the FM" which gets said in every single FM discussion on these forums.

IMPORTANT !!! : about the video of the Emil flying with several parts missing (you're talking about that video, right?), I consider this not related to your original claims, which are about 109's FM and G-pulling abilities while undamaged. Therefore I don't consider the video as evidence towards something being bad about the 109's FM or G-pulling abilities. In my opinion it shows that the FM of the 109 while damaged is something that is definitely not alright. I would even argue that the video provides, in my eyes, good evidence that something is wrong with the FM of the 109 while damaged (aka, it's waaaay better than anecdotal evidence). But that's a matter for another post/discussion. Here, in this discussion, let us differentiate between undamaged 109's FM and damaged 109's FM, since your claims from your first posts, as I noted in the paragraphs above, are about the former and not the latter. 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

 

The video was used as a counter argument to "There's nothing wrong with the FM" which gets said in every single FM discussion on these forums.

 

The server we fly on doesn't allow the use of TACVIEW full stop so we can't get data in that way, It's not "feelings" it's first hand experience that prompted the thread being made.

 

If you notice how I asked for other people to put their experiences in here so we get a fuller picture, so far all you have done is be totally against any kind of investigative stance toward the 109s FM/DM, you yourself could collate evidence against what I'm saying if you believe the opposite of it with such conviction.

 

Are we supposed to just ignore the fact that the 109s frequently UFO without any kind of consequence to velocity, when was the last time you managed to actually flat spin a 109 by janking the stick back and forward?

 

What about near indestructible tail sections from dead six attacks?

 

Are these non issues in your mind?

 

- Griff

 

 

 

 

it is my understanding that DM and FM are completely different. So to discuss the behavior of a FM is one thing and discussion of the DM is another. So the video is not "evidence" for the FM, but the DM. 

 

The problem is whenever someone makes a reasonable counter argument (which they are entitled to do), false accusation of bias. A difference of opinion is not "evidence" of bias. Ironically, the same people who claim toxicity are themselves the most toxic ones. 

 

I am not, nor I have I ever claim to have enough knowledge of the mechanics of the FM and DM to give an intelligent answer.  My participation in this entire discussion started when I shared my experience. I somehow got thrown into the lot. 

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  • 2 months later...

Are you flying the clipped wing? Clipped wing actually has similar turn rate to 109. 

 

The 109 vs spit mk9 is simple.

109 can bleed speed in turn better. Slower turn equal tighter turn. 

Leading edge slats allow 109 better low speed handling, this is when they get those wtf shots on you.

 

Key is to see them early and break hard. After this if you turn with a nose up attitude with smooth tyrn they cannot ever turn with you. Getting steeper and steeper  Obviously you can't just go into a climbing turn and out turn a 109, you need to make sure he can't pull lead on you, this is done with a hard high g turn. You can do 1 very hard g turn with out blacking out. After that you need to be careful, but that's OK, 1 hard turn is all you need to get out of his guns. Now smooth climbing turn. This won't black you out. Save your cardiovascular system for when you need to make defensive breaks. 

 

When spit is on a 109's 6. There is only 2 things he can do, force overshoot or run. If he turns you will win every time.. just watch for the overshoot, it's usually first thing he does, I instantly chop throttle, put rpm to full and kick rudder, he won't be able to force overshoot.

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On 12/9/2020 at 1:07 AM, -=No.66=-Griff1999 said:

and there will be a 109 that comes screaming in from altitude that manages to turn inside of us, and maintain the inside turn.

 

Also this says that 109 has slowed down more than you, you can only hold an inside line in a turn without overshooting IF you are slower. 

 

Spit holds some speed in a turn. It all compounds, it's a great match-up.

 

I hate to fly 109's, I only fly spit. But 109 is a great plane and at end of day an experienced 109 pilot has more options. I think the FM is very good. And my experiences match those of AAR which I have read.

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1 hour ago, QB.Beno said:

 

Also this says that 109 has slowed down more than you, you can only hold an inside line in a turn without overshooting IF you are slower. 

 

Spit holds some speed in a turn. It all compounds, it's a great match-up.

 

I hate to fly 109's, I only fly spit. But 109 is a great plane and at end of day an experienced 109 pilot has more options. I think the FM is very good. And my experiences match those of AAR which I have read.

Coming here from WT sim mode flying Spitfires from the Mk II to the XIV was such a shock because in WT the current Spit FM bleeds speed like there is no tomorrow in turns and combined with the (correctly) sensitive elevator and (debatable) very aft cg results in a very difficult plane to manage. Contrast to the Spit IX FM here where I eventually figured out in order to prevent overshooting even semi-competently flown 109s I had to COMPLETELY chop throttle to zero, kick hard rudder and even drop flaps after which it was not difficult at all to stay behind a 109 with flaps out or not. I don't know, but neither extreme (bleeds speed like crazy in turns vs needing to cut throttle to zero and hang everything out) feels correct.

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Here are the accounts of a WW2 Spitfire IX pilot flying against a real 109 G. I suppose his experience must be valid because he is talking about the real planes. The highlighting is mine.

Pilot accounts.jpg

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A few minutes to get on his tail?  10 seconds is a long time in combat so a few minutes indicates either poor recall, poor authorship or a 109 that took a long time to shoot down (in a IX v G).

 

In the right situation anything can turn inside anything else.  Whether or not it can sustain that turn or the turn is in fact the best thing to do is another matter.  A horizontal, constant speed turn is only one equation.

 

von Tom

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2 hours ago, Tag777 said:

Here are the accounts of a WW2 Spitfire IX pilot flying against a real 109 G. I suppose his experience must be valid because he is talking about the real planes. The highlighting is mine.

I f I were you I would only take into account the opinions of the "couching potato" pilots. Real life and this sim run in paralel lines that rarely converge in a crossing point. So take it as an exercise of fantasy and you would live mentally relaxed. Here goes an example: in the 10 seconds mentioned before in this sim you can deploy full flap in 109's meanwhile performing rolling scissors, but curiously in real planes the big wheel accionated by hand in 109 cockpit next to trim wheel lived in the oblivion from its owners. 23 90 degrees spins of that wheel were the difference from zero flap to full flap. Former 109 pilots explain how difficult was using flaps because you have to need a lot of space and time over the airfield to perform an standard operation landing. Also Pilots, from both sides, were always afraid from opportunist squadrons patroling the airfield boundaries to catch easy kills in the most vulnerable phases of the flight (take off and landing): So 109 pilots trained a lot fast approaches and landings with zero flap, or almost zero flap, just to not get exposed too much time. 

 

 

 

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A very interesting and informative video. 

Of course there are differences between RL planes and a sim. But I think that a sim is perfectible, so would be good try to simulate the RL planes behavior a little more, if possible.

The time needed to deploy full flaps for example could be one of them, as was showed in the video, and so on.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Tatata_Time said:

I f I were you I would only take into account the opinions of the "couching potato" pilots... in the 10 seconds mentioned before in this sim... 

 

 

I'm guessing this was a dig aimed at me.  I have no idea what flaps being deployed has to do with my comment, though anecdotally I understand that Marseille did use flaps to improve manoeuvrability.

 

von Tom

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"This was a big mistake because there was no way a 109 could turn inside a Spitfire"

Well, it depends of the initial speed/energy of each aircraft. Those kinds of sentences doesnt means anything.

 

Also, that video do not show much. He is "measuring the amount of turns to fully deploy or retract the manual flaps" not trying to lower the flaps down as fast as possible.

 

Edited by JG300_Winterz
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36 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

I understand that Marseille did use flaps to improve manoeuvrability.

Let's see if you can answer yourself

4 hours ago, von_Tom said:

poor authorship

Yes you can. Next time try to be more accurate than others who you are criticizing. Funny you get credit to Hans Joachim Marseille stories but not to the spitfire pilot's. Should be the amount of kills, don't you?

 

29 minutes ago, JG300_Winterz said:

He is "measuring the amount of turns to fully deploy or retract the manual flaps" not trying to lower the flaps down as fast as possible.

Have you ever seat in a real 109 cockpit? I did. In the time I did it I was 174 cms tall and weighted 70 kgs. and I can assure you there is a small room for your arm between the flap wheel and the back plate of the cockpit, like it's shown in the vid, every single twist your elbow hit the back plate (now you can imagine how comfortable was for a 190 cms tall with a weight of 80-85 kgs  purebred aryan). So basically they didn't deploy flaps if they were in a hurry. It's one of the most claustrophobic and narrow places I've ever been, really uncomfortable. When Willy Mes commited to put the most powerful power unit in the smallest airframe I can say german pilots were never in his priority short list.

 

I put this example of flaps just to remark that not all that brights has to be gold and 109 in this sim got her own rules and trim is not an exception. 

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55 minutes ago, Tatata_Time said:

Let's see if you can answer yourself


You do talk rubbish, first answering a query with a snide comment and reference to something that is not related, then following it up with another snide comment. 
 

Sure the Spit could out-turn the 109 but in some situations the 109 could out-turn the Spit. 
 

von Tom

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5 hours ago, Tatata_Time said:

I f I were you I would only take into account the opinions of the "couching potato" pilots. Real life and this sim run in paralel lines that rarely converge in a crossing point. So take it as an exercise of fantasy and you would live mentally relaxed. Here goes an example: in the 10 seconds mentioned before in this sim you can deploy full flap in 109's meanwhile performing rolling scissors, but curiously in real planes the big wheel accionated by hand in 109 cockpit next to trim wheel lived in the oblivion from its owners. 23 90 degrees spins of that wheel were the difference from zero flap to full flap. Former 109 pilots explain how difficult was using flaps because you have to need a lot of space and time over the airfield to perform an standard operation landing. Also Pilots, from both sides, were always afraid from opportunist squadrons patroling the airfield boundaries to catch easy kills in the most vulnerable phases of the flight (take off and landing): So 109 pilots trained a lot fast approaches and landings with zero flap, or almost zero flap, just to not get exposed too much time. 

 

 

 


Don’t worry, it’s not as if manipulating the flaps (while ignoring any flap speed limits), and trim and throttle, all while twisted around to keep eyes on and performing a rolling scissors is the common evasive maneuver used by pilots online.  Oh wait ....

 I’m sure all the great experten actually had 3 left arms anyway, so it’s all good.

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52 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

You do talk rubbish, first answering a query with a snide comment and reference to something that is not related, then following it up with another snide comment. 

I do talk you in engl-ish. Rubb-ish is only used by naturals from Rubbland. I must remind you your initial post contributed with ZERO explanation or with extra info RELATED to this thread, so don't try to twist your situation. I guess you guess too much.... but this is your own problem.

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Have you ever seat in a real 109 cockpit? I did.

 

So we cant even discuss.

I was just pointing out the fact that the video do not show anything about the speed to get the flaps down and yet we cant have a constructive discussion.

 

I would rather see the "octopus" behavior reviewed first as at the moment we can manipulate the stabilizer, the flaps and the throttle at the same time.

 

Im out.

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55 minutes ago, Tatata_Time said:

I do talk you in engl-ish. Rubb-ish is only used by naturals from Rubbland.

 

The point has been made by others that anecdotes don’t really provide evidence to support allegations of FM problems.

 

Likewise the anecdote (relied upon to support the original claim based on  anecdote) I was commenting on - a few minutes for a IX to shoot down a G seems way too much and as such cannot be considered as reliable evidence.
 

Challenging anecdotal evidence about turning performance is very relevant to the issue. 
 

The evidence (trials flights and flight data etc) all support the Spit being a better (in general terms) turner than the 109. In certain circumstances it won’t be. In the circumstances described by the OP it is impossible to come to any conclusions about the accuracy of the GB flight model. 
 

My own game experience is that any 109 will be out turned by the comparable Spitfire but that the better 109 pilots can make it a very close thing until their energy bleeds off. Again this isn’t reliable evidence. 
 

For the rest, whatever. 
 

von Tom

 

ps. I’m with Winterz on the octopus thing.  

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It takes 40 seconds to cycle the flaps on the Bf 109 in Il-2 GB, which is close to the time required in the video. I'm not sure what it's supposed to prove.

 

One could argue that we should have anthropomorphic controls that prevent inputs requiring more than two hands, but that's not specific to the 109.

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7 hours ago, JG300_Winterz said:

So we cant even discuss.

I was just pointing out the fact that the video do not show anything about the speed to get the flaps down and yet we cant have a constructive discussion.

 

I would rather see the "octopus" behavior reviewed first as at the moment we can manipulate the stabilizer, the flaps and the throttle at the same time.

 

Im out.

I've not trying to cut the discussion with you cause I'm cooler than you (honestly is not the case), sorry if you've misunderstood my words or my intentions after that direct question. I pointed out my own experience cause if one day you got enough luck to hop on into a warbird cockpit, specially a 109 you will realize how narrow and small it is IRL and all those things we usually set while performing aerobatics in close combats have a weird implementation in game. And in 109 is also more remarkable the weirdness of that implementation cause the flap and the trim were manipulated mecanically by hand... so yes the octopus effect is also weirder when you face a 109 and watch it performing maneuvers at very low speeds only reserved for choppers, Harriers, F-35 (vectoring thrust) or V-22. And they perform all that cause they're able to set all meanwhile they're pulling high G's or high AoA's climbs while they control the stall at speeds near the stall or below it and control everything in less than a second and in 2 meters from impact deck like a hovercraft. As last entry mate said: it takes 40 seconds to fully deploy flaps in a 109 in game, more or less like in the vid, but the main difference is that in the vid the mate is parked in the hangar and not in a close combat situation... but anyways... at any circumstancies 109 pilots are super aryan humans with iron arms.....only helped by 15 degrees axis deviation from the A/C Y axis of their seat back to hold several G's even they've wrongly set the trim. 

The main problem in these discussions in when people think you've only put in doubt their favourite A/C flying model. I really doubt they've nailed the rest but in 109 FM is even more than evident its weirdness. Try to isolate the "fan" component from your mental 109 equation and you would get almost opposite results from what you get now.

 

It's not specific of 109.... 100% agree, but what is specific of 109 is this thread, so I specifically talk about 109 here and when you put in same situation planes actuated by servo mecanisms or mecanical mecanisms actuated by human force, wires and pulleys and when you know it's phisically impossible to actuate the trim wheel at same time as flap wheel at the same time you actuate the throttle then.... take your own conclusions.... that weirdness becomes a powerful advantage in fights and it's virtually generated, and it's not representing the actual A/C, and to be honest it's not exclusive of this sim. Even a 190 with its electric actuated flaps (actual A/C)  got less advantage than a 109 in game. Do we have to admit that weirdness as a non written rule? Go on.... you got my blesses but no my agreements. 

 

I'm out too and for the rest.... whatever.

 

 

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On 3/18/2021 at 1:28 PM, Tatata_Time said:

I've not trying to cut the discussion with you cause I'm cooler than you (honestly is not the case), sorry if you've misunderstood my words or my intentions after that direct question. I pointed out my own experience cause if one day you got enough luck to hop on into a warbird cockpit, specially a 109 you will realize how narrow and small it is IRL

I don't know if you have drive a sport car any time in your live, but i´m pretty sure that there are many sport car with the cockpit more cramped that a Bf-109.
Do you know that it needed to remove the steering wheel for enter in a Formula-1 car cockpit?? 
By the way, ... why do you think the Spitfire have a lateral door for access to the cockpit?? ..really do you think that Spitfire cockpit have a lot of more room than a Bf-109??
Really do you think that you can moving a lot when you fit and tight the seat harness in any warbird?? 
 

 

On 3/17/2021 at 10:44 PM, Tatata_Time said:

So basically they didn't deploy flaps if they were in a hurry. It's one of the most claustrophobic and narrow places I've ever been, really uncomfortable. When Willy Mes commited to put the most powerful power unit in the smallest airframe I can say german pilots were never in his priority short list.

 

I put this example of flaps just to remark that not all that brights has to be gold and 109 in this sim got her own rules and trim is not an exception. 

You must would be know that a one full turn of the flaps hand-wheel in a Bf-109 give 5 degrees of flaps deployment, and In accordance with a few luftwaffe veteran pilots it was enough to outurn a Spitfire or Hurricane during Battle of Britain. ..But it was not a usual practice.
Other thing that you must be know, is that the flaps and THS hand-wheels are placed together because it is needed to move them together with same hand due to, flaps deployment become the aircraft nose-heavy, and moving both wheels at same time the change of trim is automatically compensated.
Other interesting feature of the Bf-109 stabilizer trim control is that the hinge point of the THS (Trimmable Horizontal Stabilizer), is placed in the rear zone of the airfoil of the THS, with the screw jack in its leading edge.This layout allow the pilot to move the THS hand-wheel with light forces in tail-heavy direction, due to the negative lift generated with negative AoA in the THS airfoil. This lift force pull the screw jack upright, and help more in landing manoeuvres, when pilot need deploy full flaps, and the change of trim is more noticeable.

Spoiler

image.thumb.png.1da63a6f59b3435ca5347def6624b3eb.png




By the way, I´m more worried about how the people climb with the Yaks, and Spitfires, with full landing flaps down, with non aerodynamic penalty, than how quick the Bf-109´s move the hand-wheels.
 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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23 hours ago, Tatata_Time said:

 

Have you ever seat in a real 109 cockpit? I did.

I did as well and I can tell you was really confortable from my point of view. I could move the stick well, all things were close to use and the sitting position was good.

I was on an spitfire mkIX cockpit as well and the feeling was weird because I did not expect that. The metal part is really on my shoulder while on the 109 I could rest my arm like on a car, the wing was so big I could not see anything below and the frontal glass was almost on my mouth /nose so the view on the low 12 is non existant because the front is far as well so even mooving a little bit to the front you will still see nothing. The glass bubble was so small and I felt like if I had a bubble glass on my head like an astronaut rather than on a cockpit. The 109 has a lot of metalic bars but It felt less claustrophobic for me just because I felt more sorounded by glass and less by metal and the only part I could not see well was the 12 high.

For a plane like a 109 and the spit there is no need to have a lot of room on the cockpit. It is more important to have everything well situated on the cockpit and to reach everything moving your head and not moving the body and the 109 was far superior on that. 

On the game the spit cockpit looks big and you can moove with ease up and to the front so the sitting position looks high. The real one is not like that. 

 

By the way I am bigger than you with 1.81 and 85kg

 

 

Edited by E69_geramos109
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I probably wouldn't fit to well in those, pretty stocky and about 100kgs. 

 

 

But onto my main point.

 

 

The issue I'm seeing is the 109s low speed handling is pure arcade.

 

I'm somewhat mind blown that it's in the game in its current format.

 

It has significant levels of control at speeds where other aircraft have ceased to fly. While everything else is basically at gravities mercy I can kick the rudder and right the plane with next to no effort.

 

I can bang the stick all over the place in the 109 and it doesn't high speed stall unless you really, REALLY mistreat it and there's absolutely zero need for any input from rudder through flat turns or maneuvers. 

 

You can practically pull cobras at low speed. 

 

I know someone is going to say S L A T S but unless merlin the wizard himself installed those things it doesn't add up!

 

People can practically hover these things at a 45° angle and not dip a wing. 

 

It's ridiculous. 

 

Edited by Denum
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I did a dumb and tried to stall fight one in the MK9, I had zero control, I snap rolled violently into the ground and the little bugger lived!

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1 hour ago, Denum said:

I did a dumb and tried to stall fight one in the MK9, I had zero control, I snap rolled violently into the ground and the little bugger lived!

Did you use your flaps? I know in the real Spitfire they were only used for landing since they are either all the way down or up. But in this game, it's the only way I found to be able to stall fight 109s.

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58 minutes ago, Dramborleg said:

Did you use your flaps? I know in the real Spitfire they were only used for landing since they are either all the way down or up. But in this game, it's the only way I found to be able to stall fight 109s.

I did, 

 

I was already past the point of maintaining lift, when I deployed the flaps she violently pitched nose over, I was in probably a 30 degree climb and maybe 45ish onto my right wing. I half recovered then snap rolled again then went into an inverted spin. Only had a few hundred feet so I pancaked quite spectacularly. 😃

Edited by Denum
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I don't know if the FM is right or wrong, but the 109 was manoeverable at low speeds.  A rebuilt E7 had a benign stall at something like 125km/h.  Add on some flaps and I'm sure (with no empirical evidence to back it up) that it could do some funky stuff.  Not quite as funky as the Yaks seem to do but still quite funky.

 

The Spit on the other hand, just no to any kind of flaps during combat.  It adds no lift at all, only drag.

 

von Tom

 

 

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3 hours ago, von_Tom said:

 

I don't know if the FM is right or wrong, but the 109 was manoeverable at low speeds.  A rebuilt E7 had a benign stall at something like 125km/h.  Add on some flaps and I'm sure (with no empirical evidence to back it up) that it could do some funky stuff.  Not quite as funky as the Yaks seem to do but still quite funky.

 

The Spit on the other hand, just no to any kind of flaps during combat.  It adds no lift at all, only drag.

 

von Tom

 

 

Stall speed is one thing, 

 

Being able to pull high AoA at that speed isn't realistic though.

 

 

Edited by Denum
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4 hours ago, von_Tom said:

It adds no lift at all, only drag.

Flaps reduce stall speed some 10 mph+ (depending on weight), making for a Clmax increase from ~1.3 to ~1.65. They might be draggy (for flaps), but not as draggy as they look.

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1 minute ago, ZachariasX said:

Flaps reduce stall speed some 10 mph+ (depending on weight), making for a Clmax increase from ~1.3 to ~1.65. They might be draggy (for flaps), but not as draggy as they look.

I dumped them out of desperation but I can say for sure, the 109 was slower then me and had much more control. 

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