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Another new old player - pleased and disappointed


pakfront
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cardboard_killer
3 minutes ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

He always can writer it down,  simple and  always work.

 

Use a copy of the speadsheet. Not as easy as pushing the button, but much more comprehensive.

 

 

 

Edited by cardboard_killer
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2 hours ago, 16th-BR_diditopgun said:

You missunderstand me.

I know the orange box feature, I'm not talking about it.

I talk about pushing a button on your stick and then in the input list it automatically go to the corresponding input line and highlight it.

Because currently you can only scroll the input list by yourself and read what button name is assigned to the input. But "Joy1_b10".... sorry I don't know my >65 HOTAS buttons by heart...

 

While not critical I agree this would be a nice usability thing.

 

BUT we must keep in mind the developers have a huge backlog to take care of. It all boils down to what is prioritary. If you want to know which code your joystick button has, just make a mock mapping with it, check the code you get, and then don't hit Apply. While you do that, they're busy building Flying Circus 2 ;)

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On 12/3/2020 at 6:39 AM, pakfront said:

Turns out what really turned them off was the initial user experience. Which plane does what? Key Mapping. No way to detect key conflicts. No way to find out what button was assigned to what. No way to know which binds you even needed for a particular plane. "Which of the trim options should I bind for the Yak?" Which firing buttons do I need?"  Being fairly new, I couldn't help them. They tried, spent an hour futzing and two decided it just wasn't worth it. 
 


And folks are complaining about us having the technochat :) ...

The planes are complicated enough that you do need a (re)familiarisation and experiments before you can fly them after long pause; trying to make universal binding that lets player use same controls for systems of 20+ different planes is bound to create the mess. Unfortunately, when new players face the mess, they think it's their lack of experience punishing them; no, the game punishes everyone. 

The easiest way to see which button is assigned to what in cockpit is the technochat (which just writes on the screen that the button you hit has just started raising your gear while still on runway, etc ;) ). . So yes, you either bind all kinds of radiator to the same controls, or after jumping into new plane you mash the buttons and see which controls your plane has (where is the Hurricane oil radiator? Oh, found it, it shares bind with BF-110 water radiator! Where is siren and airbrake? Oh dear, it's bound ot the Saitek quadrant I just disconnected etc). The key conflicts are, IIRC, displayed as small orange icons next to binding (you can see what other function is bound there and decide if you are OK with that).

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Apologies for length here, but this is important stuff & hits home for many of us who can appreciate much of the OP's post, especially if we're somewhat capable of taking an "outsiders" viewpoint for a moment.  I'm not sure all of us can - most of us already have a well-ingrained mindset that pushes through any obstacle we encounter here.

 

Pakfront, good for you - getting 3 buddies to try out the game is more than I've achieved so far with my close friends!  There's an obvious common theme in this thread:  so many of us LOVE this game, but haven't been able to 'convert' even a single one of our RL friends to playing it regularly.  I'm in that boat too.  I'd truly love to bring some old/close friends into the fold here.  Heck, I'd even be happy to find some nearby wingmen who weren't friends previously, for that matter.  But like others here have expressed so well, the success rate is not high.  So what can we do about that?

 

If you decide to climb that mountain, I've come to believe that 2 things are probably critical.  ("Probably" because I can't speak as one who's succeeded - YET.)  The first of these 2 we can control to some degree; the 2nd we can't.

 

The 1st is so important it can't be overstressed:  personal involvement.  This starts with setting proper expectations early for your friend.  Combat flight sims are a very different animal.  That's been beaten to death here in this thread, so obviously most of us know that.  So this is DIFFERENT.  What do we DO about it?  I think we REALLY need to weave an accurate picture for our friends here.  IF we make the time to explain a few things, we can provide a reasonable understanding of this environment, and ramp up the chance he'll stick around.  So take some time, in small bites or otherwise, to tell him about the massive complexity, the small (& thus limited) but HIGHLY responsive team working on the product, the outstanding community & all it has to offer in the way of tutorials.  Show him where to find help on various things in the forums, and - most of all - explain the inescapable FACT that this NOT like your typical FPS - in a GOOD way.  This is a slow, CHALLENGING, and very rewarding journey.  In this day of instant gratification and everything "quick & easy," anything less on OUR part is only setting up our friends for disappointment & discouragement, & we can safely bet on them making a quick exit.

 

So you got him all excited with your tails of aerial daring do, and got him to buy BOS on a sale, huh?  Good for you.  Now take it a step further & go actively create a chance for him to be happy about it!  If we REALLY want our friend to join us here long term, we need to be there for him early on - and I mean right in the room with him if at all possible.  Help him set up his HOTAS & keys.  Walk him through all corners of the GUI.  Guide him toward where to start.  Share some knowledge about each plane as he takes it out for his first sorties.  This small but significant sacrifice on our part just MIGHT be the difference, and will certainly save our friends a LOT of time and frustration.  Is he at a distance?  Make a trip out of it!  Or with covid worries, at least set up a screen share session & you can cover a lot of this remotely.  A few hours of our time is well worth it - we're hoping for YEARS of enjoying this hobby together.

 

The 2nd critical thing is the unknown:  our friends themselves.  Some people will "catch" the fever; some never will regardless of all your efforts OR theirs.  It's probably almost impossible to tell which camp a person is in, and they likely don't know themselves.  Only time and exposure to this "world" will tell.  I suspect we all have at least one friend we would never guess, that in a matter of months would become a dogfighting terror or forum fixture, if somehow properly introduced to IL-2 GB!

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The 1st is so important it can't be overstressed:  personal involvement.

For sure. Fortunately the one friend who expressed continuing interest was willing to spend an hour with me today on Discord. We had the same issues with finding which buttons he had mapped, but we got enough figured out to get going. 

 

I used the single example dogfight server as a warm up. Oddly, it's a great training environment. The AI flights are entirely passive.
I had to explain _again_ how to chose an MP start point and plane (not obvious) and what to do after he crashed.  All easy enough once you've done it a few times... With that out of the way we got to the actual sim and enjoyed ourselves. I flew above him as he plonked bombers and fighters with his Yak 1. I was able to walk him through simple gun approaches and coach him out of spins. After that I started up a coop server with a "Easy Mission Generator" and he promptly crashed on takeoff. 😆 Not surprising, which is why I had the next mission from "PWCG" queued with an air start. That went well and he took out a Stuka before falling to AA (or debris, or something.) At that point our hour was over but we'd covered a lot of ground (with Yak parts.)


It took me a morning of prep to set all this up, as I had to figure out how to use the 3rd party tools, test the missions to make sure I understood them and get the port forwarding working. None of it is hard, especially since I've done similar things before, but it is time consuming. But that is not the source of my complaint.  I am happy to set all this up and, again, amazed by the community resources scattered around. 

 

To me the problem is, even though he enjoyed the game, if he wants to play SP before our next get-together, he's going to run into the same obstacles I've described above: frustrating key mapper and lack of beginner information in-game.  I can point him to the community resources but he has other obligations, as we all do and so that is enough of a speed bump he may not quite "get to it." It would be much more likely to happen if the basic stuff was already in-game. I suspect the next time he fires up IL2 it will be when we get online. He'll have forgotten his bindings and we are going to have to walk through that dang key mapper again...

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nice to hear u were able to fly succesfully with ur friend. 

 

U got some valid points there about the issues new players face. 

 

For the keys i suggest writing them down on a sheet of paper, old fashioned but works.

I did draw a pic of my joystic and marked what button did what.

 

 

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On 12/3/2020 at 6:39 AM, pakfront said:

Hello Folks,

 I'm another of the old dogs new to IL2:GBs. It's a great game, and I want to emphasize that, but it has a serious problem.

I played Il2 Forgotten Battles and Pacific Fighters when they were current and for some time after. Spent a lot of time in Rise Of Flight, then went to DCS, where I enjoyed the F5 and the Huey, though I didn't do much gaming at the time. It's been a few years since then and haven't played sims. Gave away a lot of my old, tired gear, only keeping some odds and ends. However, I recently bought an old nVidia 980, borrowed a Gen. 1 Rift and a TM Warthog and bought IL2:BOS on sale.

VR, even with my old gear, is fantastic and really immersive. I am susceptible to nausea in VR, I know this as I worked in VR for about a year. But 1CS has nailed it. Excellent implementation, minimal motion sickness even at suboptimal frame rates. With sharpening filter on, I can read the instruments, and the glinting and enhanced visibility of distant planes is a great aid to immersion.

 

I am enjoying BOS and look forward to the few hours a week when I can play through a day of the Career. The planes are lovely, the terrain is appealing and I am starting to be able to navigate the map a bit. I do have to say that in VR I need to use the icons quite a bit, mostly for navigation. I really wish they were more customizable, such as being able to just see nav icons, and/or just your squadron. Likewise with the map. Also, I wish the videos that play in the career had information about the historical situations. How has the frontline changed? Where are the new hotspots? Where are the active airfields? What's the historical context? Flying with the squadron AI is perplexing. I have no idea what they are up to, nor even where I should be in the formation. I kind of bumble along with them... pretty sure I get a good teasing back at the mess after every flight. The radio messages are nearly useless, most of the time I can't tell which are coming from me and which are to me. Ah well, I have played enough of these games to know that's always an issue and I have patience for it and once I got over it I don't find it much of an issue if I use icons occasionally.

 

Now the problem. I am disappointed at how inaccessible the game is. Not for me, I'm used to hacking controller configs and I know the basic principles of air combat and squadron coordination. And I know that learning the ropes of a new sim is worth it.
However,  I convinced three of my friends to also get BOS when it was on sale. I talked up the fun i remembered from coop RoF and DCS, said I'd run a server and we could do intercepts and fighter sweeps together. Two of the three have decent HOTAS that they got for space sims and games. All have better rigs and VR than I do, and all of them are programmers.
I got them up and running in VR, they enjoyed "easy mode" MP server I set up and thought the game itself was was impressive and fun. "Ha that was great, let's do it again." But interest lagged. Why?

 

Turns out what really turned them off was the initial user experience. Which plane does what? Key Mapping. No way to detect key conflicts. No way to find out what button was assigned to what. No way to know which binds you even needed for a particular plane. "Which of the trim options should I bind for the Yak?" Which firing buttons do I need?"  Being fairly new, I couldn't help them. They tried, spent an hour futzing and two decided it just wasn't worth it. 

The one who bothered to delve a bit further tried the Career. I had to tell him how to even start it (pick a squadron on the map, etc..) He got it going, then "It was a wall of text about someone, then I clicked randomly until I was in a mission and, despite reading the briefing, had no idea what was going on." The Russian radio messages were not a help. I told him he could find a mod for english but he couldn't find it on the Steam Workshop (is there one?) and once I told him about JGSME (an unsupported program you download from random places) he was out. Frankly on that I agree, mods should be available on Steam, correct me if they are but I couldn't find them. When he was flying, he enjoyed it. I bet I I could get him to play a bit more, but only through a lot of effort on my end.

In short, the game itself is excellent. The initial user side is terrible and it only is usable because the community support is stellar. If I could get my friends to watch an hour of the well-produced youtube tutorials before playing maybe it would have ended better, but few intro players will find the 'right one' to get them started even if they have the patience. I was happy to find the mod that turns the girly pic into plane notes - with that alone I'm now able to land without pranging. Why isn't that the default in game? 

 

Enough complaining, glad to be playing again and thanks to all the devs and community who have kept this game going and improving.
 

 

I fully agree with it, especially with the disappointing carreer. 

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Dear All, 

 

I fully agree with this topic, I am also a hardcore Il-2 1946 fan, and expressed similar thoughts in this topic: Il2 Sturmovik - A franchise of non finished combat sims / A suggested future Unfortunately the topic currently closed by the founders, I really do not understand this harsh reaction. 

 

I reply here to BraveSirRobin, when he became ironic on our approach. So let me/us underline here, that we are discussing only about such issues (like a correct AI, and radio communications, functionable wingman, individual markings, all-in-all realistic air combat management), which have already been implemented in IL-2: 1946/Forgotten Battles 10 years ago, could be purchased much cheaper than any of the current franchise element. 

 

Thats all, no need to close this topic as well, I have finished. 

 

Best, 

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BraveSirRobin
On 12/5/2020 at 7:55 AM, 16th-BR_diditopgun said:

You missunderstand me.

I know the orange box feature, I'm not talking about it.

I talk about pushing a button on your stick and then in the input list it automatically go to the corresponding input line and highlight it.

 

 

This game allows conflicting key settings, so that feature is not possible.  If you want to know what a button does, go to the settings and try to assign it to some random feature, then check the conflicts.

12 minutes ago, Styx13 said:

 I really do not understand this harsh reaction. 

 

Possibly because they don't appreciate being the target of mansplaining by someone who clearly has no idea how their business model works.

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Don't know if it helps the OP but you can view your key and device mapping in \IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\input\current.actions and \IL-2 Sturmovik Great Battles\data\input\current.map

 

I seem to recall someone did something clever with spreadsheets to present the info in a nicer format?

 

Probably would also recommend picking one or two aircraft that interest you and your friend and stick with those for a long while. Helps build muscle memory if you are not changing aircraft and control setups constantly

Edited by No457_Stonehouse
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LLv24_SukkaVR
On 12/5/2020 at 4:45 PM, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

He always can writer it down,  simple and  always work.

 

Why have bookmarks, you can always write links down.

Why have Youtube favorites, you can always write them down.

Why have anything easy, if you can do them in the hard way.

 

Why not just make IL-2 easier for everybody? GUI would be a great place to start. Make it easier and more accesible.

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1PL-Husar-1Esk
1 hour ago, LLv24_Sukka24 said:

 

Why have bookmarks, you can always write links down.

Why have Youtube favorites, you can always write them down.

Why have anything easy, if you can do them in the hard way.

 

Why not just make IL-2 easier for everybody? GUI would be a great place to start. Make it easier and more accesible.

You don't get it , if something do not exist you made it or use what others made it to serve you needs. It's normal , if I want remember website I use bookmark in my browser if I need remember something from book , I wrote it down. Better UX is always welcome but if they not provide it for keybinding, you writer/print it down  or remember , you need it now act now.

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