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Feature Request | Injured Crew Replacement


-332FG-Magic_Zach

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-332FG-Magic_Zach

At the moment, when my tank is hit and say only my gunner dies, this puts me out of action and forces me to bail and grab a new tank, as nobody will replace the gunner in his position.  War Thunder has a pretty nice system in for this.  In the meantime though in IL-2 it's a bit of a hamper because one hit that might not have killed anyone else in the tank, or maybe I got bombed and my driver's hatch was open, I need to drop everything because of the loss of one guy.

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Voidhunger
53 minutes ago, -332FG-Magic_Zach said:

At the moment, when my tank is hit and say only my gunner dies, this puts me out of action and forces me to bail and grab a new tank, as nobody will replace the gunner in his position.  War Thunder has a pretty nice system in for this.  In the meantime though in IL-2 it's a bit of a hamper because one hit that might not have killed anyone else in the tank, or maybe I got bombed and my driver's hatch was open, I need to drop everything because of the loss of one guy.

If the hot big round enters your tank, even if your crew is uninjured, i will guarantee you that you will quickly bail out in real life.

So no crew replacement - its arcadish 

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[Pb]RedeyeStorm

No but to be able to have another crewman taking over might be helpful. Gunner dead, tank commander takes over, driver dead, radioman takes over.

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Voidhunger

There is some sort of replacement , when your loader is killed, you are able to reload gun, but it takes much longer time.

 

Anyway, its not so easy to replace dead crew member in heat of the battle.

There is no room for such thing, you have to leave your tank and pull out the dead body.

If the driver survived and the tank is in good shape, there is a slight chance that he might be able to drive to safety.

If the driver is dead you will jump out.

 

Look at the Cologne Sherman.

Driver, loader killed instantly, Commander severely wounded.

 

I cant imagine gunner or assistant driver which bailed out to return, trying to pull out dead driver, replacing him, check the tank status and then try to drive slowly back to safety while the enemy Panther tank still aiming at them. Sorry its nonsense

 

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SCG_judgedeath3

I will use my comment previously used in another case where warthunder players wants commander, radio operator etc to take over the others roles in their tanks:

18 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

MedKits - When a crewman get injured you are stuck with a blurry vision and it will be great if you could get a medkit or heal a crew member, Like gunner is injured so you press Ctrl + H to use a medkit which your tank only has like 3 of.

A medcit wont magically make a crewman behave and operate like if he was uninjured again, it would make him bleed less and give the crew more time to get to safe position in the back and handle him over to the field medics. The injured man would still be dizzy and hurt and see and have bad situational awarness even with aid kits or hell morfin and modern stuff which we learned quickly in afganistan in my unit, a injured soldier was useless in the fight and best option is to fall back.

18 hours ago, Alexander9822 said:

Ability to replace crew members in the field - Your gunner gets killed so you can replace him with the commander.

Issue is the commander isnt a trained gunner or vice versa, only in ermeginces I have read they did it but the standard procedure was to back off and fall back if the gunner, driver etc got injured and if the tank got penetrated: bail out. A tank isnt fully operational once someone in the crew is injured or killed and commander of the unit would rather have that tank back off from the fight. Its not warthunder or world of tanks, but I think a good solution would be as you said: you drive back to nearest rearm station(which is already in the game) and the tank and crew is repaired/replaced and fit for combat again.

In short: the others arent trained to do the gunners/drivers/radiomans/commanders job and will make the tank unfit for further combat, hence the doctrine in most armies are: Fall back and abort the mission, youre just weighting down the rest of the unit, or to bail the tank, once a round penetrates your tank and causes damage the normal thing to do is to bail out. Its a sim not a arcade game :P

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LachenKrieg
5 hours ago, -332FG-Magic_Zach said:

At the moment, when my tank is hit and say only my gunner dies, this puts me out of action and forces me to bail and grab a new tank, as nobody will replace the gunner in his position.  War Thunder has a pretty nice system in for this.  In the meantime though in IL-2 it's a bit of a hamper because one hit that might not have killed anyone else in the tank, or maybe I got bombed and my driver's hatch was open, I need to drop everything because of the loss of one guy.

I think you make a good point. We have damage models for the tanks and the crews. We have RRR vehicles. We have modeled radio position in the tanks. But we have no way to make them all work together in a dynamic way.

 

As a simulator, most here wouldn't be fond of a War Thunder, WoT type setup. I think one of the biggest problems with replacing an injured crew member was the cramped quarters inside a tank. It would be no small challenge to get at and replace an injured crew, not to say that it couldn't or wasn't done though.

 

But as a simulator, we should be able to use the radio to call for backup/help/repair. Because what is the point of having damage models and RRR vehicles if all we are doing is hitting the Finish mission button?

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If your gunner is dead that means his whole spot where he sits is messed up,also possibly the sights and other equipment are destroyed.  So no, no crew member replacements. 

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VonLuck
On 11/29/2020 at 4:28 AM, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

In short: the others arent trained to do the gunners/drivers/radiomans/commanders job and will make the tank unfit for further combat, hence the doctrine in most armies are: Fall back and abort the mission, youre just weighting down the rest of the unit, or to bail the tank, once a round penetrates your tank and causes damage the normal thing to do is to bail out. Its a sim not a arcade game :P

 

We are now... Trained in each role...

 

At Bovington you get trained as a Gunner and Operator or Driver, then from Driver to Gunner, and Gunner to Operator, then promoted to Commander... There are a couple variables, Command Tanks etc...

 

I remember reading that Bubi, Micheal Wittmans Gunner became a Tiger Commander...

 

In combat... As grim as it may be you'd push your Gunner's body under the gun and get your driver to remove the hamburger meat later... At least I knew that was my bodies fate... If I'm dead I would hope my mates would map to grid my flesh sack and keep fighting to the bitter end...

 

I could see in German tanks the radio op moving to the loaders and then loading as the commander screams commands at him on the fly... Same with the Gunners position... They wouldn't be as effective, but it could certainly be done.

 

Maybe a trigger zone around the players tank that starts a SAFE area and then you can move crew around? As in you would have to be out of combat and "safe" to move crew like you pretty much have to, to repair?

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randybutternubs

ya'll are crying realism when we have 2 second track and everything else repairs.

 

allow the mission designer to determine whether crew gets respawned.

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SCG_judgedeath3
20 hours ago, VonLuck said:

We are now... Trained in each role.

Now yes and it also depend on which nation and doctrine, in swedish armored forces we dont, I as a driver have no clue how the gunners controls and computer etc work nor how the breach and loading the gun works, I know driving it and maintance. Loading the leopard 2s gun in swedens training takes 2,8seconds to do, so by the time you have removed a dead crewmember and the damage havent started fires inside or damaged the equipment, the other tank has fired 2-3 rounds more. I think I rather bail the tank, thanks :P
German doctrine in ww2 was similair to that.

20 hours ago, VonLuck said:

I remember reading that Bubi, Micheal Wittmans Gunner became a Tiger Commander..

Correct although he didnt became a commander during action but was promoted and trained to become a commander later. Otto carius in his book said the best person to become a commander in a tank is the driver, as he know where to place the tank and use it and the limits, the gunner is the third option, if one must have one take command, normally a commander is promoted and assigned to a tank through promotion and training, based on personality and leadership skills.

20 hours ago, VonLuck said:

I could see in German tanks the radio op moving to the loaders and then loading as the commander screams commands at him on the fly... Same with the Gunners position... They wouldn't be as effective, but it could certainly be done.

True but it all depends on the situation and the unit and how they do their action, but most tankers would bail the tank once a penetration hits and kills 1-2 crew members or a fire start and risking to reach the ammo etc. Also when hit the explosion and shrapnel might damage a lot of the equipments and making it useless or hard to oeprate plus a dead crewman you need to remove and its hard to get to certain positions, in abram you can barely get to the driver unless the turret is facing 12 o clock. In the ferdinand you cant reach him at all.
German training and doctrine made it clear to abandon the tank, unless the combat situation was over or you have the time to do all this and how fanatic you are to try and kill the other tank prior to your own life.
Anyways if  any crewmember is injured or killed then you arent very combat effective anymore and most likely ordered back than keep fighting, a damaged tank wont do the unit much good in my training.

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SCG_judgedeath3

Not to say you arent right, fully possible to do that you say, depends what training and doctrine each nation has and the view how to fight in them are, each side has its advantages/disadvantages :)

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VonLuck
1 hour ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Not to say you arent right, fully possible to do that you say, depends what training and doctrine each nation has and the view how to fight in them are, each side has its advantages/disadvantages :)

 

But of course old bean... But for historical accuracy I think you're closer to the actual wartime practices... As in what crews actually did in combat records... 😁

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ThePutzmann
2 hours ago, randybutternubs said:

ya'll are crying realism when we have 2 second track and everything else repairs.

 

allow the mission designer to determine whether crew gets respawned.

 

First of all, tracks or other modules don't take 2 seconds to repair but rather a couple of minutes. 

 

Secondly: I think you could add that feature but I see a couple of problems: How would you drag the body of the driver out of the drivers compartment? (Especially that of the Pz.IV G since the driver is kinda stuck between the radio to the right of him and the ammo rack behind him). In general, drivers compartments are very cramped, so getting the limp body of the driver out of there could take minutes. 

 

Same thing with switching the gunner. You could push his body out of his seat (or he would fall out himself). But how do you make sure that the dead gunner doesn't get stuck in between the turret basket and the turret and jam the turret traverse (same thing goes for the rest of the turret crew). Furthermore, if a shell would penetrate the tank and create enough damage for the gunner to be killed, wouldn't it also kill the whole turret crew?

 

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SCG_judgedeath3

There is a solution:
Server makers who use arcade settings on their server could allow crew replacements, as the tanks already behave so arcadish and not realistic.
Servers using realistic settings and is doing what IL-2 series are: simulation: then you cant.

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randybutternubs
17 hours ago, ThePutzmann said:

 

First of all, tracks or other modules don't take 2 seconds to repair but rather a couple of minutes. 

 

Secondly: I think you could add that feature but I see a couple of problems: How would you drag the body of the driver out of the drivers compartment? (Especially that of the Pz.IV G since the driver is kinda stuck between the radio to the right of him and the ammo rack behind him). In general, drivers compartments are very cramped, so getting the limp body of the driver out of there could take minutes. 

 

Same thing with switching the gunner. You could push his body out of his seat (or he would fall out himself). But how do you make sure that the dead gunner doesn't get stuck in between the turret basket and the turret and jam the turret traverse (same thing goes for the rest of the turret crew). Furthermore, if a shell would penetrate the tank and create enough damage for the gunner to be killed, wouldn't it also kill the whole turret crew?

 

 

first of all, it's actually entirely up to the mission designer how long repairs take.

as it should be.

real simple.

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LachenKrieg
On 1/20/2021 at 4:43 PM, VonLuck said:

 

1. We are now... Trained in each role...

 

At Bovington you get trained as a Gunner and Operator or Driver, then from Driver to Gunner, and Gunner to Operator, then promoted to Commander... There are a couple variables, Command Tanks etc...

 

2. I remember reading that Bubi, Micheal Wittmans Gunner became a Tiger Commander...

 

3. In combat... As grim as it may be you'd push your Gunner's body under the gun and get your driver to remove the hamburger meat later... At least I knew that was my bodies fate... If I'm dead I would hope my mates would map to grid my flesh sack and keep fighting to the bitter end...

 

I could see in German tanks the radio op moving to the loaders and then loading as the commander screams commands at him on the fly... Same with the Gunners position... They wouldn't be as effective, but it could certainly be done.

 

Maybe a trigger zone around the players tank that starts a SAFE area and then you can move crew around? As in you would have to be out of combat and "safe" to move crew like you pretty much have to, to repair?

To point 1, this is pretty much how it was in Germany during WWII. Currently reading R. Freiherr von Rosen's Panzer Ace, and the training for Panzer crews appears to have been fairly comprehensive, and well before station assignments were given. Anyone interested in adding to their enjoyment of Tank Crew and how it fairs as a simulator, might consider reading some of the authentic memoirs/accounts published to get a better understanding of what it must have been like.

 

To points 2 and 3, there are 3 connected parts IMO. The first part being related to the point you raise regarding promotions. Promotions were usually given for individual displays of leadership/bravery/skill in combat. Anyone recognized for their ability to excel in combat had a good chance of being recognized for promotion. In a case like the one you mentioned, additional training would likely have very little to do with promotion because he would have already been well versed in all systems, including how to handle the steering wheel. Promotions within Panzer crews during the later stages of the war were more likely to be influenced or induced through the natural effects of attrition.

 

The second part is related to point 3 above, that being what to do if a crew member is lost during combat. The biggest problem was likely related to moving around in such a confined space. Changing positions in the turret during combat was probably much easier then replacing a dead driver. If it couldn't be done though, it wasn't because no one else knew how to drive. The impression I get from the accounts I have read is that crews took abandoning their vehicle very seriously, and would only attempt to do so if the tank was on fire, or made inoperable. Because the alternative was to face almost certain death on leaving. An example of this is the story of Johann Thaler, who received the Knight's Cross for his actions after the commander of his vehicle considered abandoning it.

 

The third part relates back to crew training and how the first two points are tied together. In his memoirs, Rosen describes an incident where after the command vehicle in his company was sent out for repairs, the company commander took over Rosen's tank causing its original commander to assume the Gunner's position. This was not during combat, but done on the fly and without any additional training.

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VonLuck
23 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

The second part is related to point 3 above, that being what to do if a crew member is lost during combat. The biggest problem was likely related to moving around in such a confined space. Changing positions in the turret during combat was probably much easier then replacing a dead driver. If it couldn't be done though, it wasn't because no one else knew how to drive. The impression I get from the accounts I have read is that crews took abandoning their vehicle very seriously, and would only attempt to do so if the tank was on fire, or made inoperable. Because the alternative was to face almost certain death on leaving. An example of this is the story of Johann Thaler, who received the Knight's Cross for his actions after the commander of his vehicle considered abandoning it.

 

Yeah, I was just talking form personal experience with Tanks... I know you can get around an interior of a Challenger 2 (I did it for many years), I know the Leopard 2 has some fencing in the turret, but the WW2 tanks are pretty open fighting compartments... If you had to throwing a rope (track) under your gunners arms and dragging him out (horribly) while in dead ground/turret down you could and would... It would be the same as taking out an injured crewman, but less caring... You'd end up dumping his body off the rear deck and hoping no one drives over him, or just leaving him on the top of the turret while you finished the fight...

 

But, I understand where your historically coming from...

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LachenKrieg
3 hours ago, VonLuck said:

 

Yeah, I was just talking form personal experience with Tanks... I know you can get around an interior of a Challenger 2 (I did it for many years), I know the Leopard 2 has some fencing in the turret, but the WW2 tanks are pretty open fighting compartments... If you had to throwing a rope (track) under your gunners arms and dragging him out (horribly) while in dead ground/turret down you could and would... It would be the same as taking out an injured crewman, but less caring... You'd end up dumping his body off the rear deck and hoping no one drives over him, or just leaving him on the top of the turret while you finished the fight...

 

But, I understand where your historically coming from...

I'm not so sure you do... My comments are meant to be in agreement with yours, but were actually addressing the comments left by another poster. I would say "pretty open" is a relative term regarding a discussion on WWII tanks, and you wouldn't normally jump into the drivers seat of a Panzer III from the commander's cupola. But I get your point with 100% clarity. There is no doctrine quite like the doctrine of self-preservation, or the limits one might reach to protect it.

 

I think the point of this thread, like others before it, got diverted into a discussion on what someones rule book says should happen in any given situation. And I think the truth about being in any real life situation is that a persons rule book often only gets written after the situation presents itself.

 

But in relation to the game, I think it would be a plus if the SIM allowed us to move crew internally in vehicles where it was possible. I also think it would be a plus if we could use the radio station to call for various types of help, or that crew replacement be completed when entering RRR zones. IRL, each company unit was equipped with reserve tank crews, so there would be nothing unrealistic about replacing a crew member if you are able to make it back to an RRR zone.

 

Currently, if you pull into an RRR zone, any injured crew get healed, but dead crew are not replaced. So if your gunner is dead, there isn't much point trying for the RRR zone, you might as well just spawn into another vehicle if you can, or call it game over. We have radio equipped tanks, and RRR zones, support vehicles, but no way to make them work together.

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SCG_judgedeath3
10 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

And I think the truth about being in any real life situation is that a persons rule book often only gets written after the situation presents itself.

Correct, want to add in peiper and kurt meyers books and otto carius they say the opposite of what von rosen says in his book so its probably: the training and general doctrine was to bail out if you were in combat situation and got penetrated and killed the gunner or put you in fire as the enemy tank have you zeroed in and gonna finish you with the next round, while in other scenarious where you dont have that risk you can do what von rosen said.
Doctrine is one thing, in real action you solve the situation by solving it in one way or another, as long as you live: all well.

10 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

But in relation to the game, I think it would be a plus if the SIM allowed us to move crew internally in vehicles where it was possible

Shouldnt be impossible but only if it takes a while to do it, so that you get punished by doing it while in combat and the enemy tank is just a second away from killing you, then the best option is to bail, but if you got a crewman killed and the tank isnt too damaged and you arent in direct contact with the enemy: then its a good option to move a crewmember, although he shouldnt be able to perform the task at hand as good as the dedicated loader as example. Also need to make it clear the tank after that isnt very combat effective either.

11 minutes ago, LachenKrieg said:

each company unit was equipped with reserve tank crews, so there would be nothing unrealistic about replacing a crew member if you are able to make it back to an RRR zone.

Yep, I hope this will happen soon, wasnt that long ago when you couldnt even heal injured crew members, should be a easy fix and getting to a refuel/rearming truck/position/RRR zone should fix killed crew members.

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LachenKrieg
14 minutes ago, SCG_judgedeath3 said:

Correct, want to add in peiper and kurt meyers books and otto carius they say the opposite of what von rosen says in his book so its probably: the training and general doctrine was to bail out if you were in combat situation and got penetrated and killed the gunner or put you in fire as the enemy tank have you zeroed in and gonna finish you with the next round, while in other scenarious where you dont have that risk you can do what von rosen said.
Doctrine is one thing, in real action you solve the situation by solving it in one way or another, as long as you live: all well.

 

Shouldnt be impossible but only if it takes a while to do it, so that you get punished by doing it while in combat and the enemy tank is just a second away from killing you, then the best option is to bail, but if you got a crewman killed and the tank isnt too damaged and you arent in direct contact with the enemy: then its a good option to move a crewmember, although he shouldnt be able to perform the task at hand as good as the dedicated loader as example. Also need to make it clear the tank after that isnt very combat effective either.

 

Yep, I hope this will happen soon, wasnt that long ago when you couldnt even heal injured crew members, should be a easy fix and getting to a refuel/rearming truck/position/RRR zone should fix killed crew members.

There is no doubt that fire had to be immediately dealt with, and if it couldn't be, it most likely meant abandoning the vehicle. The bold text above would most likely be the dilemma IMO, do you have a chance at dealing with the threat, and are your chances survival better behind armor? In one of von Rosen's accounts, he describes an incident where a platoon size battle group got caught exposed to AT guns on both flanks, and while his tank had taken several hits, some of which bounced, the crew only bailed after they were engulfed in flames.

 

But in terms of the game, for vehicles where internal access to a station is possible, it wouldn't be a bad idea to model it. In terms of ROF, if you are able to get the bow gunner to take over as a dedicated loader, things shouldn't be that different. The PzIII as an example has a ROF=15, means 4 second reload time. Lets say the second man has a ROF=12, means 5 seconds, but you no longer have anyone on the bow gun. Where the rate of fire would be more affected is if the gunner had to do both jobs alone, or if the commander is split between loading and sighting.

 

In terms of the vehicles combat effectiveness, that is what the damage model is for. Tank Crew in its present form is a really good representation of a WWII tank and I recommend it to anyone interested in WWII era tanks, but there are still a number of things that could be improved/tweaked with ballistics/damage models.  

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