Jump to content

Helping a friend learn the sim - seeking advice on Stalingrad aircraft selection.


Recommended Posts

Greetings!

 

I convinced a good friend of mine who was on the fence to dive in to the Great Battles series. He's got a very limited budget, I told him about the sale going on, and he's going to start off with Stalingrad as base and move along from there.

 

I offered to help him get up to speed and convinced him full realism right off the bat is the way to go - he's on board.

 

Both he (and I) have limited time, so I submit to you, the community: what do you feel is the easiest aircraft specifically in the Stalingrad Standard Edition for him to learn on? I've asked him if he has a preference, he's open to anything.

 

I have some experience with the Yak-1 Series 69, and it seems much easier than the P-40 I first learned on. Those are the only real fighter aircraft I've spent any time with so far (the P-40 the majority of flight hours, and that probably doesn't help us with his limited plane set selection to choose from). I learned on the U-2VS initially when I got into this, but he doesn't have that luxury.

 

Some additional information that might help you, help us:

 

  1. His peripherals are limited. He's at least got a flight stick, it *might* be a HOTAS, but I'm not counting on it. He does not have rudder pedals. Whether that is worth considering in this, not sure...
  2. I believe at this point he's more keen on attacking ground targets; however, I think a fighter aircraft of some kind might be ideal so we can cover each other. I intend for him to join me online as soon as possible (so keep an eye in the skies for fresh meat).

 

Anyway, I'd definitely welcome the feedback - I think I'll be able to get some decent seat time in this weekend, and I'd love to get a feel for the aircraft I'm going to help him learn on. I simply can't decide...

 

Thanks,

 

-Groove

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bf-109 can be useful in that it allows you to sidestep the issues of engine management, as most things aside from keeping an eye on your manifold pressure setting are automatic, but the fighting style isn't as easy as the Russian fighters. On the other hand, the F-4 does turn decently, and turning seems to be the easiest style to get your head around. You guys intend to do MP against players rather than co-op? 

 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Il2, no rear gunner.

 

The game it's named il2 for a reason...

 

It might not be your first option in PvP MP. But as a starting point it's a very good and FUN plane to learn. Once you set up your radiators, you only need throttle and, idealy pitch trim to fly. Atacking ground targets is always a good chalenge. And you'll see another face of the sim this way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If he is interested in ground attacking then do that. Its much more rewarding to find a big target on the ground and blow that up then getting ripped apart in dogfights. Especially without head tracking.

 

I would recomment the Il2 too. Its a tank, easy to fly, lots of loadouts and you cover yourself decently with the big guns. 

 

Have fun. :)

Edited by [_FLAPS_]Grim
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, migmadmarine said:

Bf-109 can be useful in that it allows you to sidestep the issues of engine management, as most things aside from keeping an eye on your manifold pressure setting are automatic, but the fighting style isn't as easy as the Russian fighters. On the other hand, the F-4 does turn decently, and turning seems to be the easiest style to get your head around. You guys intend to do MP against players rather than co-op? 

 

That sounds like a great aircraft for him to try on the German side. He hasn't indicated a preference, but I told him previously it might be a good idea to learn an allied and axis aircraft depending on the number of players on a team when joining a server. 

 

We were thinking of going online, at least I enjoy it, and I explained to him there are servers where ground attack does matter and affects the lines (like the environment on Finnish virtualpilots, for example).  I messed around with Pat Wilson's campaign generator a bit, so I suppose there's that option as well if the multiplayer gets too intense for him. I just dove right in to MP ;) - did that before I tried a single player career.

6 hours ago, SCG_Tzigy said:

I have an extra u2. Whats your friend handle, I ll send it it to him..

That is fantastic - I really appreciate your generosity, and he will as well! 

 

I just sent him a text to let me know his username. I'm not sure if he installed and set up the game yet, but I should find out some time this weekend. 

 

On another note, I noticed you're in Anchorage? That's pretty cool. I've been up north in the Yukon and had a very brief visit to Alaska (to Skagway), since I happened to be in the relative area. Beautiful country up there!

6 hours ago, SYN_Luftwaffles said:

i16! It's in Moscow, but it's the easiest to fly 

 

Ha, that would be entertaining. I think he's going to really enjoy the series and pick up more content. So someday we just might hope in the I16. :)

 

5 hours ago, =FEW=fernando11 said:

Il2, no rear gunner.

 

The game it's named il2 for a reason...

 

It might not be your first option in PvP MP. But as a starting point it's a very good and FUN plane to learn. Once you set up your radiators, you only need throttle and, idealy pitch trim to fly. Atacking ground targets is always a good chalenge. And you'll see another face of the sim this way.

 

Yeah, I think this option that you and Grim suggested is really interesting for an allied aircraft. 

 

3 hours ago, [_FLAPS_]Grim said:

If he is interested in ground attacking then do that. Its much more rewarding to find a big target on the ground and blow that up then getting ripped apart in dogfights. Especially without head tracking.

 

I would recomment the Il2 too. Its a tank, easy to fly, lots of loadouts and you cover yourself decently with the big guns. 

 

Have fun. :)

Yeah, the lack of head tracking will probably be problematic - especially for MP dogfighting. I haven't been playing long, and I only ever got one MP dogfight kill. I maneuver killed a 109 on the deck by the convoy of ships in Kuban one time in a Yak. Didn't get any credit for it though :(. I think sticking to ground attack to start is probably the way to go to get his confidence up. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

For head tracking I'll just leave my setup right here.

 

Some screenshots from my settings on how to set up head movement.

058cdd4deb26f64470cb3fd3184b19ed.png

 

Unsure which of these settings does the movement I bound both of them and have not seen any problems.

d100712ba3d30a3351754cecdcce24dd.png

 

Very important to bind the snap to center to something within reach for me middle mouse works fine. Ingame you can save your center position with F10. The default on most planes is fine but sometimes you'd want to change it. 

5ba202b2623336bda175b612655e67d9.png

 

And then zoom axis to mousewheel.

e1fd16f8e8d237e8769c19af8c5bff0b.png

 

Below you'll find the settings to move your head position sideways or up and down. I don't bind forwards and backwards due to a lack of buttons to map it to. Its all bound to my central HAT switch and is always within reach.

e82be06281df25ddf79ce936bc873d31.png

 

The biggest downside to this setup is that you'll have to pick between stick in the right hand mouse in the left, or stick in the left hand with mouse in the right.

 

I fly with stick on the left mouse on the right.

 

When it comes to things like engine management it realy depends on what stick people use. Most sticks have at least one HAT on the top. If you have a second HAT on the stick (Like on my X52 pro) you can bind throttle and flaps to that. If not you will have some spare buttons on the top of the stick find a pair that feels best and bind throttle to them.

c401224f33fae3a0370e233cbc1c0955.png

 

Next comes prop pitch controls which I have bound to some extra (side) buttons on my mouse. If you don't have any extra buttons you can bind it to mouse 1 and mouse 2.

6f55ecfcace74abb5da780916d5532c1.png

 

The idea with binding throttle and prop pitch on separate hands is that you'll be able to move both at the same time. (Not so important for most soviet fighters but comes in handy when you fly western aircraft.)

 

Those are realy the most important controls you have. Brakes are handy to bind for taxiing but where you put them is realy up to you. I have my radiator controls all set to default mixture aswell. Most of these can be treated as set and forget anyways. 

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/28/2020 at 2:42 AM, SYN_Luftwaffles said:

i16! It's in Moscow, but it's the easiest to fly 

 

What! No... it has notoriously bad stall characteristics! :) Bf-109E or even LaGG is better!

 

Definitely make sure he gets a twist stick - rudder control of some sort is a must (and they aren't that expensive if you look around).

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Great suggestions.

 

Lack of headtracking is not issue.  U can use ur mouse to look around like DisCHQ mentioned above.  I have similar controls but i have my throttle and rpm on mouse wheel and fly stick right hand and mouse left. Feels weird first but after couple hours u get used to it. 

 

I recommend yak 1 as starter plane. It turns so well and for most people turning is the easiest way to fight at first. For easiest engine management set ur throttle and rpm to same keys (or mouse wheel or throttle). Open oil and water rads at start to like 50% and u can leave them that way for the rest of the flight.

Stay at low alts where all the action is anyways ad u dont need to switch supercharger gears.

 

There u go- easy to fly manouverable fighter.

 

 

 

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

You guys are incredible - I'm going to talk to him today about the different aircraft options you guys suggested!

  

On 11/28/2020 at 8:13 PM, =BES=Senor_Jefe said:

Head tracking is an easy fix.  Go here: https://www.trackhat.org/trackhat-opentrack

 

Then either google a diy IR tracker, or buy this and call it a day: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QKRD4DM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabt1_4CUWFb7NANBRT

 

It's not mandatory, but it's probably as close as humans possible to necessary. 

 

This is great Jefe - he'd like to do head tracking at some points so I'll send this over for him to have a look at. The DIY trackers are interesting!

 

 

On 11/28/2020 at 11:12 PM, [1Tac]DisCHQ said:

For head tracking I'll just leave my setup right here.

 

Some screenshots from my settings on how to set up head movement.

058cdd4deb26f64470cb3fd3184b19ed.png

 

Unsure which of these settings does the movement I bound both of them and have not seen any problems.

d100712ba3d30a3351754cecdcce24dd.png

 

Very important to bind the snap to center to something within reach for me middle mouse works fine. Ingame you can save your center position with F10. The default on most planes is fine but sometimes you'd want to change it. 

5ba202b2623336bda175b612655e67d9.png

 

And then zoom axis to mousewheel.

e1fd16f8e8d237e8769c19af8c5bff0b.png

 

Below you'll find the settings to move your head position sideways or up and down. I don't bind forwards and backwards due to a lack of buttons to map it to. Its all bound to my central HAT switch and is always within reach.

e82be06281df25ddf79ce936bc873d31.png

 

The biggest downside to this setup is that you'll have to pick between stick in the right hand mouse in the left, or stick in the left hand with mouse in the right.

 

I fly with stick on the left mouse on the right.

 

When it comes to things like engine management it realy depends on what stick people use. Most sticks have at least one HAT on the top. If you have a second HAT on the stick (Like on my X52 pro) you can bind throttle and flaps to that. If not you will have some spare buttons on the top of the stick find a pair that feels best and bind throttle to them.

c401224f33fae3a0370e233cbc1c0955.png

 

Next comes prop pitch controls which I have bound to some extra (side) buttons on my mouse. If you don't have any extra buttons you can bind it to mouse 1 and mouse 2.

6f55ecfcace74abb5da780916d5532c1.png

 

The idea with binding throttle and prop pitch on separate hands is that you'll be able to move both at the same time. (Not so important for most soviet fighters but comes in handy when you fly western aircraft.)

 

Those are realy the most important controls you have. Brakes are handy to bind for taxiing but where you put them is realy up to you. I have my radiator controls all set to default mixture aswell. Most of these can be treated as set and forget anyways. 

 

This is fantastic - I know one of the biggest problems I had at first was binding the controls. I tried to bind everything at once, which was a very bad idea. I think he's really going to appreciate this advice and wish I had seen this before I got my head tracking set up - it would have made my life way easier! I wonder if there is a new player guide that you could put this information in - I'm sure there are a lot of people (like I was at first) that don't have a head tracker. 

 

-Groove

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and a hearty welcome to both of you!
We're very glad to have you on board and I'm sure everyone here will do their darndest to help you get into the game and have a good time with it 🙂

(some of them might absolutely wreck us online, but it's nothing personal)

Link to post
Share on other sites

I third the suggestion of the Il-2, especially if you want to fly together. A pair of Il-2s can drag flak and cover each other against fighters. My very first online kill was actually in an Il-2, clearing the 6 of an allied Sturmovik. Those 23mms are serious business. I've seen online 109 pilots simply refuse to engage a pair of Il-2s that cover each other!

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll throw in my two cents.

 

I recommend the Yak for learning to fly a fighter. I recommend the 109F-4 for learning to get kills in a fighter. I differentiate between the two because while the Yak is a very easy plane to maneuver, it will be very difficult to get kills in for a beginner. Even at my stage of experience (hundreds of hours in the current Sturmovik series; thousands of hours in combat sims), I find the Russian 20mm unreliable in comparison to the German 20mm. Quite simply: you need to aim better to score kills with the Russian cannon, than you do with the German cannon. And by 'better,' I mean 'near perfect.' Unless you're firing from pointblank range or a skilled deflection shooter. The 109 is more forgiving for long shots with its cannon in most scenarios.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/29/2020 at 7:37 AM, Eisenfaustus said:

In my opinion the easiest aircraft is 109 g2. Engine manages itself, can hold full throttle for 30 min, capable as bnz fighter while still a dangerous turner and very gentle stall...

 

I'm going through each plane right now one by one and making sure I have all the controls mapped correctly and setup. Right now I'm about 5 109s in and I can confirm the 109-g2 is the easiest so far...even easy by 109 standards.

 

Don't have to worry about prop pitch, water rads, oil rads, mixture. Just go full throttle and you're good for 30 minutes. Back it down to about 65-70% throttle and you can go forever without blowing it up. That's it. Some of the other 109s have an Emergency power mode that will fry your engine in under a minute at full throttle. The G2 does not.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, kestrel79 said:

Some of the other 109s have an Emergency power mode that will fry your engine in under a minute at full throttle. The G2 does not.

 

In fairness to the other 109s with short Emergency durations, you only need to use the power for about 30 seconds at a time (to be safe) when executing certain maneuvers. I use it when I want to get that extra bit of power in a turn to line up a deflection shot, or to accelerate faster out of a near-stall when finishing a loop.

 

I mean, yes, of course it'd be great to use it for 5-10 minutes at a time, but even in 30-40 second bursts it's useful and not really that troublesome to manage.

 

I'd still advise the F-4 for learning how to fly a 109, because it handles better than any G series, and has the lighter canopy frame. I still don't understand why the G's heavy frame was kept for so long when pressurization never became widespread.

 

*Edit: I just ran some tests (I like experimenting for any reason), and I put myself versus ace AI, head on start position, 300m altitude. Enemy in a default Spitfire IX, no mods. The goal of this test is to turn quickly enough to latch on the enemy's tail and thereby force him to engage me rather than run away either flat-out or in a zoom climb (the AI will always do one of the two if you don't turn fast enough as he passes you--he keeps his speed up and flies level, only changing behavior depending on how well you execute your turn).

 

In a Yak-9, I could easily catch him before he got out of range. I turn so quickly that he doesn't try to escape in a flat run (because I'm too close behind him), but instead tries to turn (I still beat him in a turn). *note: for the initial turn to catch him, I'm pulling so hard I almost grey out even though I'm at full endurance as the quick battle's just begun.

 

In a 109F-4 I could turn (with emergency power) and accurately fire on him with my cannon before he got out of range. He does not attempt to turn to escape me.

 

In a 109G-2 I can't turn quickly enough to catch the Spitfire. He's too far away to get a good cannon shot on him (firing 100 rounds in several different attempts, scoring only non-fatal wing hits). 

 

While experimenting under ideal conditions with AI isn't the final word in combat performance (PvP is arguably the truer test), it does accurately reflect the maneuverability of each plane. The G-2 simply does not turn as smoothly as the F-4, because it weighs a bit more, and lacks the emergency power feature.

Edited by oc2209
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for testing that out in so much detail!

 

After flying all the 109s recently last few days you're right, the engine timers aren't as bad as I thought...as long as you use that extra power short burst only and not just leave the throttle slammed forward for minutes on end. Thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, kestrel79 said:

Thanks for testing that out in so much detail!

 

After flying all the 109s recently last few days you're right, the engine timers aren't as bad as I thought...as long as you use that extra power short burst only and not just leave the throttle slammed forward for minutes on end. Thanks!

 

No problem.

 

As someone who flew the 109F-4 a lot in career, I really felt the difference when I converted to the early G series. I see the G-2 and 4 as inferior to the F-4 because they offer only a small speed gain for degraded handling. The G-6 is worthwhile in my mind, because the huge firepower improvement at least offers something noticeable in exchange for the loss in handling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If he is not an experienced simmer, let him start with IL-2 - and learn flight basics, ground attack gunnery, and even air to air (which isn't all that off - Russians used IL-2s as a makeshift interceptors against He 111s, Ju 52s, and in particular against Hs 126s).

 

Once he will feel confident in it, let him move onto fighters.

Edited by CrazyDuck
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...