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How is the G-6 late (Long Tail) just as fast as the early Short Tail G-6?


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For some Reason the early G-6 without NBD-Radio fitted will do the same 507km/h at 1.3/2600 Autumn Ground Level as the late G-6 with NDB Radio (which now comes as standard) and long Metal Tail, both of which add Drag.

Did they find a Way to add thrust or reduce Drag somewhere else I don't know about. The Engines are the same, at the same settings.

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The G-series 109s in particular had a very fragmented development with several variants both official and unofficial.  The late-model Gustavs with DB605D engines had different cowlings with low-drag blisters.  I don't know if any G-6s had these cowlings but it's possible that the drag data was taken from an aircraft that did have them.  If so you'd probably see very little net difference in drag at high speed.

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13 hours ago, JG13_opcode said:

The G-series 109s in particular had a very fragmented development with several variants both official and unofficial.  The late-model Gustavs with DB605D engines had different cowlings with low-drag blisters.  I don't know if any G-6s had these cowlings but it's possible that the drag data was taken from an aircraft that did have them.  If so you'd probably see very little net difference in drag at high speed.

But ours has the same Cowlings for the Wheel and Gun Blisters, a bigger (draggier?) Oil Cooler and the large Tail Insert, which accoridng to the Documents should decrease Top Speed by about 5 to 7 km/h.

So somewhere there must be 5 to 7km/ worth of Drag decrease.

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If it was about historical accuracy, you'd have to add a random +/- 10 kph factor to each airframe in order to reflect increased manufacturer tolerance.

Would that make anyone happy? I doubt so. At most it might make your opponents hope that you grabbed a rotten airframe, which again isn't too desirable IMHO.

If it's about putting some margin between early and late G-6, first thing to agree upon was weather one is too slow, or the other too fast, or both.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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After couple of hours flying in Coop I think I can comfort you that at least turning is affected, if not speed. G6 Late feels heavier and dips his left wing unlike I've got used to in G6 original. I flew without MW50's extra weight, when late model should be lighter AFAIK and thus quite likely better turner.

 

G6 Late:

Empty weight: 2536 kg
Minimum weight (no ammo, 10%25 fuel): 2779 kg (weight grows 243kg?)
Standard weight: 3146 kg (I guess this means WITH MW50?)
Maximum takeoff weight: 3538 kg
Fuel load: 304 kg / 400 l
Useful load: 1002 kg

 

G6 Early:

Empty weight: 2583 kg
Minimum weight (no ammo, 10%25 fuel): 2734 kg (weight grows 151kg)
Standard weight: 3100 kg
Maximum takeoff weight: 3400 kg
Fuel load: 304 kg / 400 l
Useful load: 817 kg

 

So I am a bit puzzled how minimum weight grows almost 100kg more in late version. I doubt that newer Revi weighs that much, nor radio. So I am a bit worried that MW50 could be installed in any case but not activated. Or even worse perhaps 1-2 mechanics have trapped themselves in during maintenance?

Edited by Hanu
typo
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2 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

If it was about historical accuracy, you'd have to add a random +/- 10 kph factor to each airframe in order to reflect increased manufacturer tolerance.

Would that make anyone happy? I doubt so. At most it might make your opponents hope that you grabbed a rotten airframe, which again isn't too desirable IMHO.

If it's about putting some margin between early and late G-6, first thing to agree upon was weather one is too slow, or the other too fast, or both.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

Actually that'd make me pretty happy... :)

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12 hours ago, 6./ZG26_Klaus_Mann said:

But ours has the same Cowlings for the Wheel and Gun Blisters, a bigger (draggier?) Oil Cooler and the large Tail Insert, which accoridng to the Documents should decrease Top Speed by about 5 to 7 km/h.

So somewhere there must be 5 to 7km/ worth of Drag decrease.

 

Do we know that the model geometry in the game is the same simulated geometry in the flight model?  I rather doubt it.  That would mean increasing the polygon count might affect the flight model.

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14 hours ago, Hanu said:

So I am a bit puzzled how minimum weight grows almost 100kg more in late version. I doubt that newer Revi weighs that much, nor radio. So I am a bit worried that MW50 could be installed in any case but not activated. Or even worse perhaps 1-2 mechanics have trapped themselves in during maintenance?

the late G-6 model weighs in at 3196kg. without MW50 instalation.

All in all the G-6 model in game seems a bit too slow, which was discussed here:

 

Late 109 G-models without MW50 installation carry 78kg of armor, while the MW50 installation replaces the armor behind the fuel tank reducing it to 46kg (MW50 installation is 63kg heavy fuel included)

 

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16 hours ago, SAS_Storebror said:

If it was about historical accuracy, you'd have to add a random +/- 10 kph factor to each airframe in order to reflect increased manufacturer tolerance.

Would that make anyone happy?

 

:drinks:

Mike

*Raises hand.

Honestly, that would be pretty damn neat. bloody annoying for most people but i'd find it fun as hell "oh, i've got a bad one today, need to fly to my strengths" (which are usually classed as 'target drone')

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On 11/17/2020 at 8:34 PM, Hanu said:

After couple of hours flying in Coop I think I can comfort you that at least turning is affected, if not speed. G6 Late feels heavier and dips his left wing unlike I've got used to in G6 original. I flew without MW50's extra weight, when late model should be lighter AFAIK and thus quite likely better turner.

 

G6 Late:

Empty weight: 2536 kg
Minimum weight (no ammo, 10%25 fuel): 2779 kg (weight grows 243kg?)
Standard weight: 3146 kg (I guess this means WITH MW50?)
Maximum takeoff weight: 3538 kg
Fuel load: 304 kg / 400 l
Useful load: 1002 kg

 

G6 Early:

Empty weight: 2583 kg
Minimum weight (no ammo, 10%25 fuel): 2734 kg (weight grows 151kg)
Standard weight: 3100 kg
Maximum takeoff weight: 3400 kg
Fuel load: 304 kg / 400 l
Useful load: 817 kg

 

So I am a bit puzzled how minimum weight grows almost 100kg more in late version. I doubt that newer Revi weighs that much, nor radio. So I am a bit worried that MW50 could be installed in any case but not activated. Or even worse perhaps 1-2 mechanics have trapped themselves in during maintenance?

I think these names "early" and "late" are a bullshit. Why not a comparison with P-51d "early" and P-51 "Late", .or with Spitfire Mk.IX "early" and "Late", .. data from Warthunder?? 
Bf-109 G-6 had several modifications or Rüstsätze (conversion kit) , but it was the same airplane. Several of these modifications were standardized in the Gustav AS, G6/AS, and G-14/AS  types, prelude of the G-10, but both are not modelled in game. According with "G6 family tree" from J.C. Mermet book, G6 "late" did never exist.

Spoiler

126060192_10225717081536077_7584839555151028588_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=o69X1GA9P0YAX-xw2FG&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad7-1.fna&oh=116228c8653b9a7515dad63b8c29b842&oe=5FDB5EF7
126060191_10225717154497901_2505662539465651987_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=7BqiIBX-RXQAX-bVqsn&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad7-1.fna&oh=fb59ddee648fd2e8a63c1e3213ef82e2&oe=5FDA7AE4
 



Why we have in game a Spitfire Mk.IX with a optional Merlin 70 engine, and clipped wings instead of Spitfire Mk.IX "Late" ?? :umnik2:

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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17 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

I think these names "early" and "late" are a bullshit. Why not a comparison with P-51d "early" and P-51 "Late", .or with Spitfire Mk.IX "early" and "Late", .. data from Warthunder?? 
Bf-109 G-6 had several modifications or Rüstsätze (conversion kit) , but it was the same airplane. Several of these modifications were standardized in the Gustav AS, G6/AS, and G-14/AS  types, prelude of the G-10, but both are not modelled in game. According with "G6 family tree" from J.C. Mermet book, G6 "late" did never exist.

  Reveal hidden contents

126060192_10225717081536077_7584839555151028588_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=2&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=o69X1GA9P0YAX-xw2FG&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad7-1.fna&oh=116228c8653b9a7515dad63b8c29b842&oe=5FDB5EF7
126060191_10225717154497901_2505662539465651987_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=7BqiIBX-RXQAX-bVqsn&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad7-1.fna&oh=fb59ddee648fd2e8a63c1e3213ef82e2&oe=5FDA7AE4
 



Why we have in game a Spitfire Mk.IX with a optional Merlin 70 engine, and clipped wings instead of Spitfire Mk.IX "Late" ?? :umnik2:

Edited 4 minutes ago by III/JG52_Otto_-I-

Blah blah blah blah blah blah... i want AS Engine...

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On 11/17/2020 at 8:34 PM, Hanu said:

After couple of hours flying in Coop I think I can comfort you that at least turning is affected, if not speed. G6 Late feels heavier and dips his left wing unlike I've got used to in G6 original. I flew without MW50's extra weight, when late model should be lighter AFAIK and thus quite likely better turner.

 

G6 Late:

Empty weight: 2536 kg
Minimum weight (no ammo, 10%25 fuel): 2779 kg (weight grows 243kg?)
Standard weight: 3146 kg (I guess this means WITH MW50?)
Maximum takeoff weight: 3538 kg
Fuel load: 304 kg / 400 l
Useful load: 1002 kg

 

G6 Early:

Empty weight: 2583 kg
Minimum weight (no ammo, 10%25 fuel): 2734 kg (weight grows 151kg)
Standard weight: 3100 kg
Maximum takeoff weight: 3400 kg
Fuel load: 304 kg / 400 l
Useful load: 817 kg

 

So I am a bit puzzled how minimum weight grows almost 100kg more in late version. I doubt that newer Revi weighs that much, nor radio. So I am a bit worried that MW50 could be installed in any case but not activated. Or even worse perhaps 1-2 mechanics have trapped themselves in during maintenance?

Found the same issue with the weights, I posted this in the update thread:

I was looking at the different 109 weights on the specification sheets and am a bit confused. The empty 109G6Late with MW50 and Erla is in theory 132kg lighter than the 109G14, but for standard weight, loaded with fuel and ammo,..., is only 45kg lighter. I am guessing one of the weights for the 109G6Late is wrong on the specification sheet but I'd like to know which one is correct. Ingame the 100kg weight difference is quite noticealbe between some of the other 109 variants. Or maybe it's just Göring himself piloting the new G6 but I doubt he'd fit.

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/uploads/monthly_2020_11/grafik.png.659eceb7b4b5a9fcc7cdd8d5d1a54863.png

Edited by QB.Gregor-
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5 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

I think these names "early" and "late" are a bullshit. Why not a comparison with P-51d "early" and P-51 "Late", .or with Spitfire Mk.IX "early" and "Late", .. data from Warthunder?? 

 

It's a common naming convention that's been around in military-themed video games since at least the 1990s (see also: Combat Mission), and it does a quite good job at letting people know what is what.

 

And yes, while the Germans obviously didn't call it "G-6 late", they did call it something along the lines of "Bf 109 with large tail modification" in official documentation. 

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3 hours ago, QB.Gregor- said:

The empty 109G6Late with MW50 and Erla is in theory 132kg lighter than the 109G14, but for standard weight, loaded with fuel and ammo,..., is only 45kg lighter

 

Here are detailed documents of the weights of the ´44 109-G models. Note: G6 without MW50 carry 78kg of armour instead of 48kg like all models with MW50:

 

 

G10U4_G10R6_G14.jpg

GLCE2_K-4-6-14_weights.jpg

me109g6-glce2-13aug44.jpg

Edited by the_emperor
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1 hour ago, the_emperor said:

 

Here are detailed documents of the weights of the ´44 109-G models. Note: G6 without MW50 carry 78kg of armour instead of 48kg like all models with MW50:

 

 

Thanks... "like all other G-models than G-6 that may have had MW50" would be more accurate, as there is no comparison within G-6 range. I cannot get the difference out from those document about G-6 and G-6/U3 (which was MW50 Umrustsatz). /U4 (MK108) and /AS are there but that's different.

 

My original point was I had expected both G-6's to feel about the same when G6 Late has no MW50 installed, perhaps even nicer with lighter canopy, but now Collectors G-6 is definitely more pleasant to fly and especially turn, which is weird. I was just guessing if there was some mishap in the weights perhaps related to MW50. IL-2 BoX has such a magnificent FM that you really can feel the weight. -And suffer from it if it is excessive.

 

But most important is that Gregor made a very nice excel where "Pilot + engine oil + whatever" column is quite revealing. Why minimum weight jumps up irrationally in G6 Late?

 

For me it looks like a bug.

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Thanks @the_emperor interesting info about the armor, I'm not sure if that's removed ingame, the MW50 mod says pretty clearly that it adds 21kg system-weight and 63kg fuel. Unless the system itself is actually heavier and the 21kg number is for the system-weight minus the removed armor.

grafik.thumb.png.bf083c9137e303e0cf99f3ccfdf38905.png

I added some rows for the stuff in the document to compare, interesting how the G6 is actually heavier here, my pilot and oil weight atually lines up perfectly for the old G6 :).

 

1 hour ago, Hanu said:

But most important is that Gregor made a very nice excel where "Pilot + engine oil + whatever" column is quite revealing. Why minimum weight jumps up irrationally in G6 Late?

For me it looks like a bug.

Might just be an typo in the specification sheet, I added some rows for what I would guess is the actual empty weight.

Edited by QB.Gregor-
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8 hours ago, QB.Gregor- said:

I'm not sure if that's removed ingame, the MW50 mod says pretty clearly that it adds 21kg system-weight and 63kg fuel.

 

Yeah that is odd. Since the documents quote the weight for the MW50 with 63kg, MW50 fuel included. It would be nice, to have a similar Option as we have in CLiffs of Dover where we can see the whole weight of the plane depending on the loadout.

9 hours ago, Hanu said:

I cannot get the difference out from those document about G-6 and G-6/U3 (which was MW50 Umrustsatz). /U4 (MK108) and /AS are there but that's different.

 

Yes, unfortunately the documents only give us the comparison between a G-6 without MW50 and a G-14 with MW50. I havent find any other detailed docuements on plane weight so far, but I would argue that a G14 and G6/MW50 are very close.

 

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16 hours ago, LukeFF said:

Germans obviously didn't call it "G-6 late", they did call it something along the lines of "Bf 109 with large tail modification" in official documentation. 

No my friend, they called it G /AS, in official documentation, and manuals.. :umnik2:

126060191_10225717154497901_2505662539465651987_n.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=dbeb18&_nc_ohc=7BqiIBX-RXQAX-bVqsn&_nc_ht=scontent.fmad7-1.fna&oh=fb59ddee648fd2e8a63c1e3213ef82e2&oe=5FDA7AE4

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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3 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

No my friend, they called it G /AS, in official documentation, and manuals..

 

It's called that way, because the picture shows an actual /AS aircraft - with the enlarged cowling that was necessary after fitting the larger supercharger from the DB603 engine.

It has nothing to do with out G-6 (Late), which is purely an airframe-mod powered by the same motor.

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8 hours ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

No my friend, they called it G /AS, in official documentation, and manuals..

 

Yes it was - it was called in official documentation "Bf 109 with raised vertical tail surfaces." That's per Manfred Griehl in Volume 2 of the Luftwaffe Profile Series.

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On 11/19/2020 at 3:48 PM, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

Why we have in game a Spitfire Mk.IX with a optional Merlin 70 engine, and clipped wings instead of Spitfire Mk.IX "Late" ??

 

The Merlin 70 was used in parallel with the Merlin 63 & 66, and the clipped wings were also not a mark of later development. Many Spitfires flew with rounded tips until VE Day.

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57 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

The Merlin 70 was used in parallel with the Merlin 63 & 66, and the clipped wings were also not a mark of later development. Many Spitfires flew with rounded tips until VE Day.

Same for Bf-109 G with "tall tail" modification, or with or without DB-605 AS, AM, or ASM engines.

 

image.png

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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