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Hurricane Compass Card Backwards?


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Noticed that the fixed compass card on the Hurricane has S towards the nose, W to the right, N towards the tail, E to the left.  Seems 180 degrees out.

Never seen a fixed compass card like that, N is always on top or towards the nose.

2020_11_8__4_33_14.jpg

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You have a "quick view" with better angle for this compass:

Hurri-GB_borked.jpg.38db6d031ace5421cab71c7a5114ebbd.jpg

 

Anyway, if aligned in the correct direction - Course Setter N at 12:00 o'clock (plane nose), will be need mirror the scale left right, to be read as conventional compass, what British P-8 compass is not, their needle + point magnetic North, not the plane actual heading.

 

In real compass you can only ready directions if turn the Course Setter Scale "Red on Red", for what Hurricane compass lack the "Lubber Line":

 

182982284_P-8compass.jpg.b041e3494c87a53cad26590d8851ba22.jpg

 

Anyway in GB British P-8 compass is just decoration, has no practical use , is always synchronized with DG, so look at DG, not in compass. 😜

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PROBLEM

 

The compass for the Hurricane is too dark and the 'T-bar' direction indicator cannot be seen like in the real Hurricane compass picture below. 

 

The 'T-bar' direction indicator can be clearly seen on the real compass below as pointing to 80 degrees.  It is not possible to see read the compass direction from the T-bar in the IL-2 GB Hurricane.  

 

VR users flying the Hurricane in IL-2 GB with on-screen digital compass turned off need to be able to use the in-cockpit compass and to be able to read the 'T-bar' direction indicator.

 

FIX 

 

Please fix by highlighting the T-bar brighter so it stands out, like the real image below, and is not in darkness. 

 

Thank you in anticipation.

 

Hawker Sea Hurricane Compass | #1861703532

Edited by 56RAF_Talisman
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British compass in GB cockpit is more decoration than practical (in Spit is mirrored right<>left), and not necessary because DG always show the Magnetic Heading an is more easy visible.

And is not possible model then correct, if don't make then interactive.

 

 

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I understand how in this particular system, the with the arrow needle points to mag north.  Factor in local magnetic variation (V) and compass deviation (errors due to the actual compass system, known local magnetic fluxuations that are different than actual local variation, and known compass errors (compass card corrections etc) (D)), you get true heading in real life (pretty sure that Var and Dev are not modelled in GB, what you are seeing is game True heading (T)).  The lubber line is a fixed index though, always on the nose (ac heading, be it T, Mag (M), Compass (C) or Grid (G)).  Rotating the outer ring in order to match the parallel mag lines (red on red) would give you M assuming 0 compass deviations, or T in the game.  Glad its only there for decoration, spinning that compass rose to match M would be a PITA, and contribute greatly to the time my eyes are in the cockpit, and not looking about for bad guys.  On top of that, THEN adjusting the DG to match your heading...

I THINK you can do that in CODB, I don't fly it enough to remember.

 

Its much like grid navigation in a real aircraft, you have to set up the compass correctly in order to not get TOTALLY lost (Back in the day (around 30+ years ago) I remember one of my few attempts at grid navigation in a C-130... good thing my instructor was with me, I doubt they would have EVER found us! ;)

Still somewhat disconcerting seeing the N-S line backwards, it seems correct in the Spit and Tempest.

 

Thanks for the tip on the quick view, I'll have to play around with it (I have already setup my custom views, try as I may I was unable to get the view you gave above, best I could do was the one I gave).  I also find the DG lags somewhat after any sort of manoeuvre, so when I need an egress heading like RIGHT NOW, it sometimes takes a few minutes to sort itself out.

 

Cheers

 

Diz

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18 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

British compass in GB cockpit is more decoration than practical (in Spit is mirrored right<>left), and not necessary because DG always show the Magnetic Heading an is more easy visible.

And is not possible model then correct, if don't make then interactive.

 

 

 

You are wrong.  The main compass is the primary navigation compass and is not decoration and should be very much useable, especially for the VR player flying with HUD and on-screen digital compass turned off.  The DG is not good enough and it does not always show the correct heading and takes a long time to settle down after heavy manoeuvring.  I fly VR in competitive MP environment with no HUD or on-screen digital compass and navigate the Spitfire very well with the main compass.  Same for CloD/Blitz Hurricane, Beaufighter and Spitfire.  So if TF can do it so can IL-2 GB.  It is modelled correctly already for practical use, but it just needs the direction needle T-bar to be made more visible as per historical visibility.  This compass will also be very important for the upcoming Mosquito.

The main compass is clearly necessary and is modelled as such apart from being too dark to read.  Please take more care and consideration in responding to posts in future.  Thank you.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Edited by 56RAF_Talisman
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I'm sorry @-DED-Rapidus, but @56RAF_Talisman has a point. The direction needle is painted with radium paint. After 70 years, most of that luminescence is gone now and just leaves this pale yellowish color instead of actually glowing greenish. The color is perished It is bleached by radioactivity.The artefacts you have today by no means correspond to how the gauge looked back then. That compass needle emits light in the dark and should be VERY easy to see.

 

The picture @Sokol1  posted does NOT reflect how the gauge looked back then and must not be taken as color reference. All the pale yellowish, the compass needle, the bars to align, the N, W, S, E marks, tickmarks etc are glowing green. They are NOT flat yellow. See here:

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Radium_Dial.jpg

 

THAT is how this paint looks in the dark. Only in bright conditions, they are maybe pale yellowish, but it would have to be very bright conditions. But then it is bright enough that you can easily see the compass needle anyway. If it's dark, it shines green. It is of note that back then, people were very generous in adding radium, making the color much brighter than you have on watches etc.

 

See here how radium color looks like in daylight:

x3nabrmolrk41.jpg

 

Here a more bleached version of the same type of watch:

huEffVP.jpg

 

 

Here, a fresher color:

radium-watch-dial-300x290.jpg

 

 

All these paints were brighter when the watches were new. While the radium has a very long half life, it breaks down the zinc sulfide crystals crystals of the paint. As it emits alpha particles, it is VERY reactive to the imediate surroundings. Depending on the paint used, it will bleach at different rates. It is still poisenous though, even though there is no light anymore. NEVER eat alpha particle emitting stuff!

 

It is of note that most other aircraft dials were radium paint and should be greenish in all but direct sunlight. The cockpit dials today also do not look like they did back then. Radioactive paint is banned. Hence you either take original, bleached dials that only serve you in fair weather (would you fly your warbird in other weather than that) OR you take modern gauges that have different colors. There really was no such thing as that dull white yellowish color for the dials. This color is an artifact.

 

 

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3 hours ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

You are wrong. 

 

Depends...

 

See, both compass show the same magnetic heading (needle +) ~60º,  but if you align the real compass Course Setter 'N' at 12:00 o'clock (like in game Spit  compass is set  - in Hurricane MK.II is inverted), what is their true heading? 

And if align 'N' with needle + (magnetic North) like is need do in RL?  I bet that is not 60º. 😉

 

P-8-Hurri.jpg

 

And as I have said, in GB Directional Gyro always mirror the compass true heading, being more practical to look, in Spit above spade grip, in Hurricane inside spade grip.

DG lock under maneuvers (simulating the manual cage), situation in what compass needle are spinning around, so is need fly leveled for an reliable read of both.

 

 

 


CloD has the P-8 compass more or less correct, but the lack of Lubber Line force player keep the dumb "HUD" on, what impair any "realism" purpose, just modelling work impaired by bad research. 

In DCS Spit  Mk.IX the Lubber Line turn with Course Setter - wrong! But after the "two weeks frisson" of their release... who cares about errors? 😜

 

And unbelievable, TFS did the same error in Wellington P-8 Compass!!! :o:

Lubber Line "glued" in Course Setter scale.:blink:

 

P-8-welli.jpg

 

Job well done: 👍

 

 

 

An well 3D modeled P-8 compass, based on actual dismantled (think the guy say use a Geiger count).

 

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/p8-spitfire-compass-b82a59980e6548f88fe50d0bc3c54427

 

For GB just need mirror their needle 180º.

 

Edited by Sokol1
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22 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

For GB just need mirror their needle 180º.

We have essenitally NO use for the compass in GB, as our dear pilot, in moments of peace, automatically resets the gyro to match the now calm P8 compass. In GB we ONLY use the gyro.

 

The fact that the compass needle has been inverted just adds to the fact that the P8 compass is unusable for what it was used

 

Here:

P8.jpg.5397eac5891815067eb2d73e8c3b40fe.jpg

 

You can see that I'm going almost north.

The compass needle is showing I'm going north.

The lunette is somewhat aligned on the comass needle but it is shwing me south! Where is the convenience here, please?? The whole idea of this lunette is to match the N heading on the crossed index, indicationg north.

 

What is easy about this? It makes neither sense nor is it in any way correct.

 

Sequence as I learded to operate that system is as follow (please correct me here if I'm wrong):

 

1) Stabilize aircrtaft attitude

 

2) Uncage lunette of the P8 by upping that little lever.

 

3) Turn lunette such that the T-bar matches the middle double bar on the lunette, the one indicating NORTH.

 

4) Read your flight direction. It is the direction on the mark indicating the flight direction, i.e. forward. it is this little fella here:

p8_2.jpg.f55d29c3c53bf9df346e771576e5673a.jpg

and I can't see that one on our P8 compass. It should be where the wrongly labeled "S" is on the first pic. We can't read an exact heading from our P8 compass. is that bad? No, beacuse the game-pilot updated the directional gyro and you get your bearings there. But YES, it is bad, beacuse we cannot read a course from our P8 compass if we wanted to. This would be bad if we were to manually align the directional gyro. Then we need a propper heading.

 

5) NOW we can set the flight gyro to the heading indicated on the (missing) indicator. You can see how convenient it is to have the compass inverted, If it was there, but pointing aft, how good would that be?

 

Now, we suppose that we want to do some real navigation and actually fly an exact course. Would you use your gyro for that? No, you use the compass. Rule here, use an artefact and not the artefact of an artefact to give you info when your life depends on it. You are navigationg. You have time. So then:

 

1) Uncage the lunette, turn it untill your desired course is set in the little indicator in the red circle.

 

2) turn your aircaft gradually until the crossed bar again aligns with the middle double line, i.e. aligned as in the second pic above. It is not that hard keeping that cross in the right place.

 

Nothing we have in our game reflets in any way how this is done. But we do get a gyro that is regularly updated and usable. As we don't need that compass at all, sure, who cares, inverted or not, legible or not... it is redundant somewhere there. In the real aircraft, you'd be doomed.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, ZachariasX said:

We have essenitally NO use for the compass in GB,

 

😉

 

Quote

The lunette is somewhat aligned on the comass needle but it is shwing me south! Where is the convenience here, please??

 

 

Puzzling is why in Hurricane compass the scale is inverted North-South if in Spit V is correct, what with the needle inverted left<>right - wrong, but make their use practical, as in the above (game) picture.

 

What a confusion. Well, British compass are a... "left hand thing".😁

Edited by Sokol1
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*Diz looks at the pile of worms on the floor from the now-empty can of worms he opened...

 

The P8 compass, as I understand it, will always align with magnetic N (moveable arrow/needle always indicates Mag North).  To find our actual heading, the outer bezel has to be rotated such that the 2 parallel bars are aligned with this M N-pointing arrow.  AC heading is then read off of the index marker (lubber) or off of the nose of the aircraft (if there is no index).  This is pretty much EXACTLY the same as a cheap Silva hand-held compass.  Wait until the N/S needle settles out, rotate the outer bezel to match the needle, read off your direction (heading) off of the arrow-index.  Easy-peasy.

The P8 works in a similar manner as more modern systems where the compass card actually rotates automatically (on the P8 the rotation is done manually) and N is wherever the compass card says it is.  In these systems, your heading is always at the top index mark automatically.

 

All I am looking for here is to reverse the graphic, because I find that if the currently reversed bezel is not controllable (pretty sure it IS in CLOD but not GB), it really throws my sense of direction off.  Does the Spit and Tempest, both with the same or very similar systems, have the bezel oriented so the the N indicator is on the nose vice the S indicator as in the Hurricane?  Whether it works or not as in the real aircraft is another, so far completely self-contained can of worms.

Edited by Darkdiz
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Thank you very much Rapidus. 

 

Simple as that folks.  No need for all that talk of the main compass not being needed.  The gyro compass has its limits as it is far too slow to settle down and respond when compared to the main compass in the fast moving and manoeuvring competitive MP environment, where every second counts.  There is a reason why in real life it was the 'main compass' that was the main thing and the gyro was merely a 'secondary' device. 

 

I use the main compasses all the time to best effect, much better and quicker than the gyro, in the Spitfire, Tempest and other aircraft; no HUD, tech-chat or digital on-screen compass, as I like to fly with a clear screen in VR for best immersion. 

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

 

On 11/8/2020 at 10:13 PM, Darkdiz said:

  I also find the DG lags somewhat after any sort of manoeuvre, so when I need an egress heading like RIGHT NOW, it sometimes takes a few minutes to sort itself out.

 

Cheers

 

Diz

 

Very much agree with this.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

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I actually did a NAVEX of sorts last night off line.  Turns out the compass needle gave correct TH info, just that the index was wrong.  For example, my heading according to the HUD was 213. Lo and behold SO WAS THE MAIN needle, relatively speaking (was pointing 33 deg towards my back left).  Since the actual index card was 180 deg out, it read 033.  Add the relative error (180 deg), you get the correct true heading.  The point is, the actual needle points in the relative correct direction, works the same as the game Spit and Tempest. So if the actual compass index (the numbers on the outside ring) was rotated 180 degrees (like the Spit and Tempest), the compass would read correctly, in my case above 213.  I really think this is a bug, it does not need to be further modelled, just the index rotated 180 degrees to be the same as what we see in the game Spit (note this does NOT work like the RL P8, the outer index is NOT moveable).

2020_11_10__2_37_22.jpg

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Another obvious remedy here...

Since the index on the bezel is 180 degrees out, simply read the TAIL of the needle ( vice the head where the cross mark is), gives you the same value as what your hud would say.

I still think that rotating the graphic on the compass would fix this...

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Its interpretation and mechanization is a mess imo ..... as is the DG (in all types). Look at the "other two" Sims to see how it should be modeled. Same goes for the PATIN compass on the German types.

 

IRL RAF Compass the T needle ALWAYS points to Mag North the pilot turns the Bezel to align the lines and the N with the T needle .... he then reads his current heading of the Lubber line at the 12 O'clock position. He then sets this heading on the DG. So allow the pilot to Rotate the Bezel as described above and then to set the DG. Or if as like fuel gauges which auto switch introduce a "Synch" function ... one press does all the above. Because the coders have chosen to have the T needle to indicate sim heading rather than North the scale looks 180 out if you try to use real world logic to it.... so that would need changing if you wanted it to be realistic.

 

For the German types how about allowing the pilot to rotate the bezel as well ... so when on the desired course the Aeroplane symbol is pointing at the 12 O'clock position. eg,. He wants to fly 240 heading.... He rotates the bezel to set 240 at the 12 O'clock position .... he then "flies' the aircraft symbol to the point straight up ... voila now on 240 heading .... so at a glance he can easily tell if he flying the correct/desired heading.

 

As to the DG mechanization I have posted at length previously on how it should actually work.

Edited by Bert_Foster
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14 hours ago, Bert_Foster said:

Its interpretation and mechanization is a mess imo ..... as is the DG (in all types). Look at the "other two" Sims to see how it should be modeled. Same goes for the PATIN compass on the German types.

 

IRL RAF Compass the T needle ALWAYS points to Mag North the pilot turns the Bezel to align the lines and the N with the T needle .... he then reads his current heading of the Lubber line at the 12 O'clock position. He then sets this heading on the DG. So allow the pilot to Rotate the Bezel as described above and then to set the DG. Or if as like fuel gauges which auto switch introduce a "Synch" function ... one press does all the above. Because the coders have chosen to have the T needle to indicate sim heading rather than North the scale looks 180 out if you try to use real world logic to it.... so that would need changing if you wanted it to be realistic.

 

For the German types how about allowing the pilot to rotate the bezel as well ... so when on the desired course the Aeroplane symbol is pointing at the 12 O'clock position. eg,. He wants to fly 240 heading.... He rotates the bezel to set 240 at the 12 O'clock position .... he then "flies' the aircraft symbol to the point straight up ... voila now on 240 heading .... so at a glance he can easily tell if he flying the correct/desired heading.

 

As to the DG mechanization I have posted at length previously on how it should actually work.

IMHO, as long as it is consistent between aircraft, it's fine.  As for real life, no, it does NOT work as in real life (it COULD, but not in this case).  At least the bezel is the same as other aircraft now.

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Instrument manipulations are (so far) not really part of the gameplay of BoX. What is included only provides automatically the consequence of correct manipulations. Same as fuel gauges and the altimeter, where the latter where you can switch between correct QFE or QNH. But you cannot wind the gauge itself. In a similar fashion, the correct heading is synched and displayed in the gyro. The compass itself is remotely useful as it is difficult to read if you cannot rotate the bezel. After trying to get a reading you have to do the math for compensating your actual course. What we have is as such correct now and consistent with the other aircraft.

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