Jump to content

Fw-190D-9 Current Flight model.


Recommended Posts

On 11/8/2020 at 3:07 AM, JG13_opcode said:

 

This is specious logic.

 


No its not, it's like Zacharias-x said: semantics.
It's like the VTEC from Honda and VVTI from Toyota, both do exactly the same thing but use different ways to do it, but the goal is the same: adjusting the valve opening depending on the load.
The KG and the MBG do exactly the same: they control and adjust engine/prop parameters depending on pilot imput, actual engine and atmospherical parameters.
The goal is to have as little workload for the pilot as possible, this one using just one lever "Slow-Fast", the KG/MBG handling the rest.
The ways to handle the parameters may be different, but both could be simply  called "Engine Management Unit".
So yes, the Jumo had the "Gerät" just like the Beemer.
 

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, JV69badatflyski said:


No its not, it's like Zacharias-x said: semantics.
It's like the VTEC from Honda and VVTI from Toyota, both do exactly the same thing but use different ways to do it, but the goal is the same: adjusting the valve opening depending on the load.
The KG and the MBG do exactly the same: they control and adjust engine/prop parameters depending on pilot imput, actual engine and atmospherical parameters.
The goal is to have as little workload for the pilot as possible, this one using just one lever "Slow-Fast", the KG/MBG handling the rest.
The ways to handle the parameters may be different, but both could be simply  called "Engine Management Unit".
So yes, the Jumo had the "Gerät" just like the Beemer.
 

 

You guys are using anecdotes about one device to draw conclusions about another that you know nothing about.  If you can't see why that's problematic then that's on you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

How do you know the anecdotes are not related to the D-9? The author of the statement used "KG" and has since made clear he doesn't distinguish between different engine management units. I'm fairly certain he knows what he meant to say and unless you're a powerful psychic, you don't. Why do you keep telling him what he knows and meant to say?

 

OTOH I'd appreciate some more actual information, so if you have some to share, that's the road to go down.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JtD said:

How do you know the anecdotes are not related to the D-9? The author of the statement used "KG" and has since made clear he doesn't distinguish between different engine management units. I'm fairly certain he knows what he meant to say and unless you're a powerful psychic, you don't. Why do you keep telling him what he knows and meant to say?

 

OTOH I'd appreciate some more actual information, so if you have some to share, that's the road to go down.

 

Oh come on, you of all people on here think the ol' "if it was this way in real life there would be reports about it" argument is valid?  That's disappointing.

 

"If the 50 cals were this bad in real life the USAAF would have switched to MG151/20" is literally the same argument as what's being made here:  "If the Dora engine was this sluggish in real life they'd have written about it". 

 

I don't have any specifics.  All I'm saying, all I've been saying, is that using the Anton as a reference point isn't valid because the two engines are different in their internals.  A manifold pressure regulator is related to but operates differently than one tuned to maintain a fixed mass flow rate.  To draw comparisons and thus conclude that something is totally wrong in the sim is not valid.  It might be wrong or it might not; unless someone's got their hands on a real Dora we'll likely never know.

 

Whatever, enjoy your wild and baseless speculation everyone!

Edited by JG13_opcode
Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

According this text shared here, it was possible to select firing with cannons and machine guns separetely. It isn't in game as of now...

 

The official German armament manuals for the D-9 say otherwise.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, LukeFF said:

The official German armament manuals for the D-9 say otherwise.

 

Well, they say that one trigger fires all guns, but actually you could still fire the guns separately or together by manipulating the switches and fuses in the electrical equipment. I think the wording in the English translation of the Russian report of the test of the German aircraft is somewhat misleading, but in a literal sense it is true.

 

4 minutes ago, StaB/Tomio_VR*** said:

Do we know the reason ? Some lack of spare parts or essential material for war effort ?

 

Is there a reason to not fire them all together? In particular in that stage of the war?

FWIW, in the Fw190 series it always was fuselage guns + wing root guns in one group and wing guns, if installed, in a separate group. So they just kept the design they had been using for years already.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I can hardly think of a more hazardous hobby than "just using small guns on damaged planes" if you are actually bringing your one own hide to market yourself. Hard to imagine anyone in that situation would do as what might be sensible in a combat sim.

Edited by ZachariasX
  • Upvote 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

I was just browsing through some old stuff I have on my hard disc and stumbled accross this:

 

image.thumb.png.b61ce2513a9df7bdc196eac5270f7513.png

 

While it doesn't specifically mention the Jumo 213, it states that it takes all sorts of German aero-engines (independent of size or design-type) about 3 seconds to rev up from idle/low rpm to operational maximum. The chart is for a DB603, time 0 is the application of full throttle, it takes about 0.25 seconds to go to full throttle and then about 2.5 to effectively get to 2400, in this case. No matter if started at ~500 or ~1000.

 

Testing was done at standstill on the ground.

 

Personally I think this does show that the Jumo 213 is modelled wrong, there's no reason why the later engine should need ages to adjust revs when the earlier, very similar one doesn't. It's also a safety issue if you need to do a go-around on an aborted landing approach. Every second counts in a scenario like this. No sane person would accept that into service.

  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/3/2020 at 10:30 PM, Gambit21 said:

By all rights Anderson should have died in his “straight up fight” hanging there like a kite, but he got lucky that no other German was around to punish him for this tactical error. He lived to tell the story of what was in truth, a move that made him a juicy target. Same thing happened all over the place on both sides. 

It is not up to any of us gamers to decide 75 years after the fact who should have died in the war or not. IMO, most of us would have lacked the fitness, witts, skills and courage to even make it to flying status in a handful of flying lessons, let alone go into air combat AND live to tell the story. We gamers aren't top gun instructors, and combat pilots are not our students.

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

It is not up to any of us gamers to decide 75 years after the fact who should have died in the war or not. IMO, most of us would have lacked the fitness, witts, skills and courage to even make it to flying status in a handful of flying lessons, let alone go into air combat AND live to tell the story. We gamers aren't top gun instructors, and combat pilots are not our students.

 

Hanging there like a kite, easy kill, he got lucky none of the guy's buddies were there to take the shot - most guys knew what I meant.

You don't - doesn't matter to me. Way to be a needless contrarian though. :rolleyes: 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Gambit21 said:

Hanging there like a kite, easy kill, he got lucky none of the guy's buddies were there to take the shot - most guys knew what I meant.

You don't - doesn't matter to me. Way to be a needless contrarian though. :rolleyes: 

I know tactics as well as anyone else among us gamers. Just, please, show some respect and decency and don't attempt to judge a man who actually put his life on the line just do we can enjoy our overpriviledged lives.

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

I know tactics as well as anyone else among us gamers. Just, please, show some respect and decency and don't attempt to judge a man who actually put his life on the line just do we can enjoy our overpriviledged lives.

 

Yeah - speaking as a guy who’s actually interviewed him...I’m going to stick to my statement and disregard your sanctimonious bs. 👍🏼

Edited by Gambit21
Link to post
Share on other sites

With all due respect, your original statement that "Anderson should have died" is some pretty extreme hyperbole in its own right.  It's not as if he was out there on his own or something. 

 

That particular mission on May 27th resulted in roughly 90 interceptors of Jagddivision 7 attacking the bomber stream over Strasbourg where it was being covered the by the 352nd and 357th Fighter Groups.  The end result of that was 28 Bf109s and FW190s going down in exchange for 1 P-51 shot down, 1 damaged and forced landed in Switzerland and 2 P-51 which collided (Luftwaffe fighters there also claimed 10 B-17s).

 

Anderson's own part of that battle involved his 4 ship taking on an enemy 4 ship.  Was it an aggressive move?  Sure, but hardly suicidal.  Loss rates for 8th AF Mustangs in air to air combat just weren't that high - they generally held most of the cards in their engagements and it made sense to be aggressive.

Edited by -332FG-KW_1979
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/11/2020 at 9:19 PM, JG27_PapaFly said:

IMO, most of us would have lacked the fitness, witts, skills and courage to even make it to flying status in a handful of flying lessons, let alone go into air combat AND live to tell the story. We gamers aren't top gun instructors, and combat pilots are not our students.

 

That is not true. In fact, most gamers would probably do reasonably well in flight-training (compared to farm boys who haven't ever seen any airplanes in their lives before).

The point is that flying a couple of hundred miles behind enemy lines, frozen stiff, on oxygen and the possibility of actually dyying makes the difference.

 

Many gamers have a deeper grasp of tactics than most pilots did back then and they would do reasonably well against an original pilot.

That includes Anderson going vertical. He didn't have that many pilots around him who could and would exploit that. They didn't have access to a hundred years worth of ACM knowledge freely availabe in books or websites to read and hitting the refly button over and over again, learning from their mistakes.

They'd only die once. For real.

  • Upvote 14
Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's admit it, gamers are probably the most over rated group of people on the earth right now.

 

There is a lot to unpack with regard to the FW190D-9...another is the post-stall behavior, which is bizarre to say the least. Sharp and harsh but quickly recoverable in real life reports - this thing just wants to tumble right out of the sky.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/13/2020 at 12:25 PM, Bremspropeller said:

Many gamers have a deeper grasp of tactics than most pilots did back then and they would do reasonably well against an original pilot.

How about you make yourself comfortable in the backseat of my glider? I bet I can make you totally lose your orientation and puke your brains out in less than 20 minutes. And we'll see how good your flying skills, stamina and tactical judgement are then.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JG27_PapaFly said:

How about you make yourself comfortable in the backseat of my glider? I bet I can make you totally lose your orientation and puke your brains out in less than 20 minutes. And we'll see how good your flying skills, stamina and tactical judgement are then.

 

No worries, I've soloed in a Ka8 at the tender age of 14.

Bring it on.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

No worries, I've soloed in a Ka8 at the tender age of 14.

Bring it on.

Sounds like someone who knows that the PAX is never the one that cleans the pit afterwards.

Edited by ZachariasX
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/13/2020 at 11:37 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

-this thing just wants to tumble right out of the sky.

I think it’s great. It’s my go to plane when I want to arrive in the middle of a fur ball upside down and backwards at 400km/h😃

  • Haha 2
  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, II/JG17_HerrMurf said:

I must be using it wrong. I use it very much like an Anton and don't seem to have the stall problems as listed. Granted, I'm no dogfighter. I pray to the gods of BNZ.

 

I've mostly been a 109 guy but the Dora was always the mount you took if you wanted a 190 but felt like mixing a little energy fighting in with that BnZ.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...