Jump to content
AnPetrovich

Developer Diary 263 - Discussion

Recommended Posts

But seriously... you do deserve it. :salute:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wasn't expecting this today. Very informative and interesting read!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

Some of you are - I fully deserve it. 😝

 

My question then: Which of us is in need of therapy? 😄

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

My question then: Which of us is in need of therapy? 😄

 

We're all flying around in planes that don't really exist trying to find air or ground targets, that also don't really exist, trying to KILL them.  I think we all qualify.  😉 

  • Haha 4
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This game is therapy. I take out all of my aggression on my mission foes. I love watching things blow up and or burn. :yahoo:

  • Haha 3
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

My question then: Which of us is in need of therapy? 😄

 

The Mosquito will qualify - at least for me. :)

 

10 minutes ago, Thad said:

This game is therapy. I take out all of my aggression on my mission foes. I love watching things blow up and or burn. :yahoo:

 

Ground unit/playable  AA missions will be great for this too - can’t wait.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, AnPetrovich said:

 


Full news - here is a full text and visual materials

What are you doing to show players what stress is built up so they can have a indication to when " pilot " is tired from G moves. Right now you have to just guess. In real life you feel it.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, x420xTenacious_D said:

What are you doing to show players what stress is built up so they can have a indication to when " pilot " is tired from G moves. Right now you have to just guess. In real life you feel it.  

 

We state it right there in the text. Please read.

 

Jason

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, x420xTenacious_D said:

What are you doing to show players what stress is built up so they can have a indication to when " pilot " is tired from G moves. Right now you have to just guess. In real life you feel it.  

 

Literally, in the announcement text...................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bravo Zulu for an excellent write up, you guys never cease to amaze me with your thoroughness.

 

As someone who got his pilots licence just to fly aerobatics and flew aeros for many years, I was disappointed and frustrated in the current sudden onset of blackouts and their length. 
 

Much kudos for your time spent on this and I look forward to trying it out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absolutely great decision to review that field of functionality and to include feedback and new sound data. That is the kind of gradual and continuous improvement that really shows that you have a top notch team working on this sim. You guys have build something very special and I hope we all can enjoy this for many years to come. Now hurry up with the "Huwwicane" 😉 I count on you guys for a Tuesday 20th Oct release to enjoy all these new features and toys 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Thad said:

This game is therapy. I take out all of my aggression on my mission foes. I love watching things blow up and or burn. :yahoo:

It is my fate to be the one who blows up, so does that make me like a therapy stress ball?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take solace in that you are helping others! 😁

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice article! Seriously, it helps to understand fundamental elements. Please publish more of it, e.g. how damage model calculation etc works. Could be even it's own thing. Keeps players engaged, excited and keeps the forum hot 😉

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I was hoping you would go into a little bit more detail about the pilot's physiology model, but I guess this will just have to do until we get the update.:lol:

:mda:

S!Blade<><

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, ZeroCrack01 said:

Nice article! Seriously, it helps to understand fundamental elements. Please publish more of it, e.g. how damage model calculation etc works. Could be even it's own thing. Keeps players engaged, excited and keeps the forum hot 😉

 

I'm sure they could team up with a historian to write an excellent book on WWII aviation engineering... I'd buy it.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Loved reading this. Very cool that the Sim goes to this level of detail and continues to improve.

 

I then look at the DM in Flying Circus and how something as basic as the Wing and Control Rod DM implementations have decimated the online player base in short order. Dev priorities are understood, but a message regarding possible fixes would be very timely.

Edited by US103_Baer
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was a great read.

Thank you for this explanation of G-forces.

 

I sincerely hope you can do this in depth analysis with/for the AI as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, THERION said:

 

They all lived in a different time period - nobody was complaining about fatigue or any other inconveniences. It is well known that pilots were absolutely exhausted after

dogfighting. We simply can't imagine that nobody was complaining. If I compare our youth today - they rather quickly begin to moan, when they have to do a short walk

with a small backpack with a tiny, healthy lunch and maybe a blanket to avoid catching a cold when sitting on the floor for a pick-nick...

You're definitely right, but I'm not talking about tiredness or general conditions of soldiers / pilots in a state of war, but how strongly the G forces influenced the aerial combat. This factor is so strong here in the simulation that, had it really been the case, it would have been mentioned more than once .. that's my opinion. Hartmann, Galland, Rall, Krupinski never mentioned it.

 

18 hours ago, Tuesday said:

 

Did... did you even read it?

one sentence of answers is not very worthy of discussion. if you don't have the time to deal with me objectively, then better let it be.

 

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hmmm we'll have to try it out, but I am a bit disappointed reading this. I was really hoping for a less severe system, but reading this it mostly seems just seems more complicated. This is exactly how you make these kind of games more niche instead of more approachable. It would be cool if there is a slider on the difficulty system, where you can add +0.5 to +3 G in pilot resistance. Allows us to tweak the system to how we like it.

  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

I trust that the same effects will actually apply to the AI pilots also. :salute:

I second this. I play a lot of single player and I sometimes have doubts that the AI is equally affected by such things as the AI seems to "get away" with some insane manoeuvres that I am trying to following and struggling because of grey out and the loss of SA associated with it. I hope that the Devs will review the limitations/capabilities of the AI to "fight" while under the effects of G to ensure they are equally hampered for both grey and red out and of course the uncertainty of  blackout that we "arm chair" pilots suffer, after all , we cant "feel" it either and are heavily dependant on grey out vision for signs to warn us. Sometimes the grey/blackout onset is so suddenly , we have no hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Warjunkie_VR said:

Rall, Krupinski

 

Well, I've got the autobiography of both (Rall's one even personally signed!) - both talked about the harsh conditions they had and how

extremely exhausting air combat was. Walter Krupinski also stated, they sometimes had to beak off combat and dive away to leave

the combat area, because the risk of making bad decisions and the loss of situational awareness would be increasing with the fatigue.

 

Günther Rall also mentioned that sometimes the outcome of an air battle was depending on the fitness of the pilot, especially when

both were equal in mastering their plane and therefore the actual combat manoeuvres.

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, blue_max said:

hmmm we'll have to try it out, but I am a bit disappointed reading this. I was really hoping for a less severe system, but reading this it mostly seems just seems more complicated. This is exactly how you make these kind of games more niche instead of more approachable. It would be cool if there is a slider on the difficulty system, where you can add +0.5 to +3 G in pilot resistance. Allows us to tweak the system to how we like it.

i am completely with you and i have often read in a chat while flying how pilots were annoyed because they had black out for so long, until they hit the ground or were completely torn from the air battle. On the other hand, the air force is affected by the g-forces because fall and climb are fighters and thus bring more energy and thus develop higher g-forces, but I think the 109 k4 is already strong enough. Without the physiology the advantage would be greater and therefore it would be too strong against the enemy. But it still annoys me.

7 minutes ago, THERION said:

 

Well, I've got the autobiography of both (Rall's one even personally signed!) - both talked about the harsh conditions they had and how

extremely exhausting air combat was. Walter Krupinski also stated, they sometimes had to beak off combat and dive away to leave

the combat area, because the risk of making bad decisions and the loss of situational awareness would be increasing with the fatigue.

 

Günther Rall also mentioned that sometimes the outcome of an air battle was depending on the fitness of the pilot, especially when

both were equal in mastering their plane and therefore the actual combat manoeuvres.

that is also very interesting. How much you worked with muscle strength has been widely reported, but how bad were the black outs, that is, they were often sitting unconscious in their machines in air combat and to what extent did that influence their efficiency in air combat, that is the core of the topic I am talking about. I do not connect this strong tendency to unconsciousness in the game with the air combat stories of the veterans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Warjunkie_VR said:

I do not connect this strong tendency to unconsciousness in the game with the air combat stories of the veterans.

 

Yet the phenomenon exists, and this is a fact. Why combat pilots do not mention it much is a thing to talk about. Maybe they flew so conservatively that they did not have to experience it? Maybe those who would had the most to talk about it never lived long enough to talk about it? I think Stuka pilots talk about it quite some, they even had automated systems in their planes to take control of the aircraft.

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A very interesting reading. Looking forward to the next patch. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, messsucher said:

 

Yet the phenomenon exists, and this is a fact. Why combat pilots do not mention it much is a thing to talk about. Maybe they flew so conservatively that they did not have to experience it? Maybe those who would had the most to talk about it never lived long enough to talk about it? I think Stuka pilots talk about it quite some, they even had automated systems in their planes to take control of the aircraft.

Right, as soon as the bomb was decoupled, an interceptor circuit took over. if the strong physiology gets worse i will switch back to dcs. because when the fight takes the focus while maneuvering against unconsciousness and the aerial fight against the enemy takes a back seat, it really doesn't make sense anymore. I don't enjoy that.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, messsucher said:

 

Yet the phenomenon exists, and this is a fact. Why combat pilots do not mention it much is a thing to talk about. Maybe they flew so conservatively that they did not have to experience it? Maybe those who would had the most to talk about it never lived long enough to talk about it? I think Stuka pilots talk about it quite some, they even had automated systems in their planes to take control of the aircraft.

Agreed, if we watch all the WWII gun cam footage, you never see high G super human maneuvers, there is a reason for it.

Pierre Closterman mentions in his book The Big Show,  how tiring  dog fighting was and because of the G forces.

 

Before the pilot physiology modelling , we could see incredible impossible UFO maneuvers in MP, it ruined immersion and felt very arcade.

  • Thanks 2
  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fantastic write-up. I am happy with the current physiology effects, but look forward to getting the updated model. G-effects add massively to sense of immersion even in the most basic 1v1 SP dogfights, especially in VR. If this initiative has taken time away from addressing other issues so be it. TY.

Edited by Dagwoodyt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, blue_max said:

hmmm we'll have to try it out, but I am a bit disappointed reading this. I was really hoping for a less severe system, but reading this it mostly seems just seems more complicated. This is exactly how you make these kind of games more niche instead of more approachable. It would be cool if there is a slider on the difficulty system, where you can add +0.5 to +3 G in pilot resistance. Allows us to tweak the system to how we like it.

 

It's more complicated for the developer, not the player. The complexity for the player does not change from the current version, you just need to stay within the consciousness envelope.

Making a tweak to the G system does not make the game more niche, just makes it more accurate than the previous version which already had such a system, it was just modeled differently.

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

 

It's more complicated for the developer, not the player. The complexity for the player does not change from the current version, you just need to stay within the consciousness envelope.

Making a tweak to the G system does not make the game more niche, just makes it more accurate than the previous version which already had such a system, it was just modeled differently.

 

 

If I read it correctly, there are now more dynamics to keep track of. Like pilot fatigue that does not change linearly (which is much easier to remember), interactions between positive and negative Gs. I mean, they felt the need to add a new status indicator which I as a player need to look at while also flying the plane. Pretty obvious the complexity of the system went up for both dev and player alike.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, blue_max said:

If I read it correctly, there are now more dynamics to keep track of. Like pilot fatigue that does not change linearly (which is much easier to remember), interactions between positive and negative Gs. I mean, they felt the need to add a new status indicator which I as a player need to look at while also flying the plane. Pretty obvious the complexity of the system went up for both dev and player alike.

 

Yeah, you know, those planes actually had pilots 😄

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This "keep track of" thing mystifies me.  Can you not just fly on the edge without some gauge telling you that you are on the edge?  If not why not?

 

This new approach will, on the face of it, make things easier and more realistic.

 

OH SNAP!

 

That's the problem isn't it?  The "Harder is M0ar Real" crowd's collective heads just exploded.

 

As a famous Jedi once said, reach out with your feelings.  Use the force Luke.

Gauges? We don't need no stinkink gauges.

 

Edited by BlitzPig_EL
  • Like 3
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, SCG_motoadve said:

Agreed, if we watch all the WWII gun cam footage, you never see high G super human maneuvers, there is a reason for it.

Pierre Closterman mentions in his book The Big Show,  how tiring  dog fighting was and because of the G forces.

 

Before the pilot physiology modelling , we could see incredible impossible UFO maneuvers in MP, it ruined immersion and felt very arcade.

 

Agreed.  The fact is the aerial combat we take a part of in this game bears very little relation to what actually took place in WW2.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to add ( and I know I’m opening myself up for a load of criticism..) that CloD DWT does(inmy humble opinion, )a pretty good job with high G maneuvers and black out experiences.The effects are slower to take effect and graphically as good if not better than GB,as the screen gets smaller in a circular way, A nice feature and true ( I’ve been told) is that by pushing the stick forward ( ordinarily red-out effect) mitigates ( i.e.reduces ,)black out time.Its quite effective feeling with FBB stick which continues to have “feel’ in CLOD through out but in GB the FBB goes completely slack during black out..I’ve never black outed in an aircraft ,  but I have fainted due to exercise and I can tell you it is a disquieting experience.First the world get brighter & quickly move to blurry and then the view reduces to a pinpoint, the ground rushing up with no way to stop it and then black for a moment or two and vision quickly returning but the view being now at ground level....very disquieting...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

I wanted to add ( and I know I’m opening myself up for a load of criticism..) that CloD DWT does(inmy humble opinion, )a pretty good job with high G maneuvers and black out experiences.The effects are slower to take effect and graphically as good if not better than GB,as the screen gets smaller in a circular way, A nice feature and true ( I’ve been told) is that by pushing the stick forward ( ordinarily red-out effect) mitigates ( i.e.reduces ,)black out time.Its quite effective feeling with FBB stick which continues to have “feel’ in CLOD through out but in GB the FBB goes completely slack during black out..I’ve never black outed in an aircraft ,  but I have fainted due to exercise and I can tell you it is a disquieting experience.First the world get brighter & quickly move to blurry and then the view reduces to a pinpoint, the ground rushing up with no way to stop it and then black for a moment or two and vision quickly returning but the view being now at ground level....very disquieting...

 

I think that you will find that it is normal for the pilot to let go of the joystick when blacked out in real life, so the slack force feedback stick modelling in GB is likely to be correct I believe. 

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Warjunkie_VR said:

that is also very interesting. How much you worked with muscle strength has been widely reported, but how bad were the black outs, that is, they were often sitting unconscious in their machines in air combat and to what extent did that influence their efficiency in air combat, that is the core of the topic I am talking about. I do not connect this strong tendency to unconsciousness in the game with the air combat stories of the veterans.

There is a good chance that most pilots who blacked out in midst of aircombat never lived to tell that story. 
Furthermore you quote mainly 109 pilots - a plane you turn by muscle alone. Good chance few pilots actually had the physical strength to take themselves out in a constant turn. In their autobiographies Helmut Lipfert and Ulrich Rudel both emphasise the importance of core body muscles to succeed in air combat which could be related to withstanding g-forces. Lipfert even often tells about pulling so hard he got „Mattscheibe“ which I understood as colloquial for g induced greyout. And I believe Geoffrey Wellum also mentioned pulling close to blackout in at first light. 

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, blue_max said:

If I read it correctly, there are now more dynamics to keep track of. Like pilot fatigue that does not change linearly (which is much easier to remember), interactions between positive and negative Gs. I mean, they felt the need to add a new status indicator which I as a player need to look at while also flying the plane. Pretty obvious the complexity of the system went up for both dev and player alike.

 

I think they are aware everyone will not be happy with the revised system. According to the polls, there is not a solution that will be the best one for every player. 

 

Basing the G tolerance on the best factual information, combined with 1st hand real world observation of the effects inside your head seems to be the best way to handle it for the vast majority of players. I am looking forward to trying it out myself!

  • Like 1
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

This "keep track of" thing mystifies me.  Can you not just fly on the edge without some gauge telling you that you are on the edge?  If not why not?

 

This new approach will, on the face of it, make things easier and more realistic.

 

OH SNAP!

 

That's the problem isn't it?  The "Harder is M0ar Real" crowd's collective heads just exploded.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself. :good:

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup, hence the need for recognition training for G-Lock, it's almost always fatal.  People are mixing black out with G-Lock, they are not the same.  G-Lock you let go of the stick because your unconscious and your grip loosens and hand drops more than likely still under G load, a black out is simply loss of vision, your still awake and functional.

 

Now that we have a proper and detailed physiological model, why not integrate strength to apply stick forces into the model.  Really put the noobs in trouble, take the training wheels off, actually stall and G-lock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...