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AerMacchi MC 202 Folgore VII s test Speed and dogfight


ITA-SUP-Bigans
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Talking about speed...don't you think that the Folgore lose energy, in flight level, too slowly when throttle is in idle?

On positive aspects...finally, after the latest update, trim is operable and works fine....as a trim should be.

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ITA-SUP-Bigans
On 12/11/2020 at 1:58 AM, Buzzsaw said:

Everyone should understand the versions of the C.202 modeled in the game are slightly slower than the tested aircraft we see in historical documents.

 

This is because the game version has desert filter... which even when open adds additional drag.

 

Historically tested aircraft did not use filters.

 

Reading the official manual of MC 202 IX serie this was not possible, because they typed that the plane had sand filters at the exit of factory. Difference about VII serie and IX serie was only factory standard installation of sand filters and colonial livery painting.

 

So maybe filter could drag a little horinzontal speed, but in the game I didn't find any difference opening/closing it. I tryed also to use Channel map in summer, same it didn't reach the 498 kmh but only 470kmh. It's strange because the highest supposed Tobruk temperature should help to reach higher speed Airspeed Calculator (IAS/CAS/EAS/TAS/Mach) | AeroToolbox

On 12/11/2020 at 2:13 PM, 4SCT_Vespa said:

Talking about speed...don't you think that the Folgore lose energy, in flight level, too slowly when throttle is in idle?

On positive aspects...finally, after the latest update, trim is operable and works fine....as a trim should be.

 

Are you referring to my sim test or historyc test?

 

For max speed I used max throttle and Supergiri, I don't understand your question, why IDLE (inattivo)?

 

Macchi 202 did not have trims to equilibratore, but stabilizers and in previous test 5.013 version it worked fine for me.

 

Anyway tomorrow I will try again, if update fix speed.

Edited by ITA-SUP-Bigans
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ITA-SUP-Bigans

The key to change propeller should be bigger as shown by original manual

https://www.mediafire.com/file/oib3uzt3ujiap09/Macchi202+chiave+MAS.JPG/file

 

 

Macchi 202 had auto closing FLAP over 200 kmh, as typed here:

 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/lr4zxnwly49j2j4/Macchi202+Flap+auto.JPG/file

 

Climb temperature were:

(A) WATER not exceed E 95° U 105°

(O) OIL not exceed E 80° U 105°

as typed here 

https://www.mediafire.com/file/6mdstsksontghde/Macchi202-15.JPG/file

 

Last week during my test the needles were inverted: U indicated lower temperatures, E indicated higher temperatures.

 

IMHO, as typed in the manual, in the reality the Water (A instrument) entering E needle should be lower temperature than the U (exit=uscita). This means that the cooled water by the water filter enter in the engine at lower temperature to cool it and exit at higher temperature 'cause the engine is hot.

The same for the Oil (O instrument).

 

The main needle is therefore the E that should be lower in temperature than the U.

 

 

MC 202 Acqua Olio lancette.jpg

Edited by ITA-SUP-Bigans
Picture by IL 2 Great Battles MC 202
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5th_Hellrider
On 12/5/2020 at 6:38 PM, ITA-SUP-Bigans said:

I checked IL 2 DWT Mc 202 Folgore VII s AQ speed at 1000 m following official datas from Aeronautica Macchi original 1942 Manual.

 

 

https://youtu.be/B8r98idrRNA

 

During the test I opened radiators air/oil 50/50, AS opened and put propeller at "S" position and 100% and 110% throttle.

 

After a take off with 2930 kg total weight 69%, no winds/turbolence/default temperature speeds were:

- 460 kmh IAS at 1000 m with 990 mm HG (1,34 compressor);

- 450 kmh IAS at 1000 m with 990 mm HG (1,4 compressor) 40/40 radiators for 1 minute, the I burned the engine.

 

The sim was NOT able to reach historic parameters 498kmh IAS/521 kmh TAS.

 

Anyone could show me to reach 498kmh IAS/521 kmh TAS at 1000 m with 2930 kg total weight 69%?

 

I did a fast test. Same plane, same weight, same sim, different pilot. 

In level flight at 1000 m with ata 1.30 (no boost so) I reached 500 km/h IAS. The speed during my test remained between 490-500 km/h for several seconds, although my flighting was not even very precise.

 

The sim WAS able to reach historic parameters 498km/h IAS/521 km/h TAS

 

202sp2.jpg

 

Here the replay, if you need: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ogqbs0v55gvhhur/202speed.trk?dl=0

Edited by 5th_Hellrider
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ITA-SUP-Bigans
22 hours ago, 5th_Hellrider said:

 

.... different pilot....

 

🤣

 

You missed these particoulars:

1-Channel map;

2-New update 5.013!

 

I managed to reach the same speed yesterday night, after downloading the new update on channel map. I tryed also last week and it was unpossible for me. Maybe something was changed. I hope in Tobruch map too. 

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5th_Hellrider

I did the test also in Tobruk map: same thing. I tried with 1.34 ata too (in Channel test I used 1.30) and I reached 505 km/h IAS.

 

Sim 2 - Bigans 0 

 

NB: I read in the comments below your video, that already 5 days ago (so before the last patch) a guy had tried and reached speeds like mine. He obviously had the ball in the middle and was leveled.

 

The difference between the "Alta Quota" and the "Normal" is the ata:

- Alta Quota - 1.30 ata (combat power)

- Normal - 1.35 ata (combat power)

 So you should use the "Normal" for your tests, considering that the historical test was at 1.34 ata.

 

And, Macchi C.202 Folgore, thank you. More letters don't make you cooler.

 

I will never go back to the topic of speeds. I showed you what you wanted to see. You didn't admit your mistakes. You blamed the simulator instead (the sim was NOT able to reach historic parameters). 

I don't know what else I can do, next time maybe I'll show you my cock-pit.

 

In this topic many people have helped you and taught you several things, I list them in chronological order:
- the difference between IAS and TAS (you thought the speeds on the manual were IAS)
- use the radiators correctly
- open the "antisabbia" filter

- use the Channel map for the test (assuming the historical test was done in Italy, similar temp.)
- start the test from a slightly higher altitude (and not lower as you did)

- read instruments and tools
- keep the plane straight and in level (you were drifting and climbing)
- use the rudder (you thought it was necessary have a trim ahaahahah)
- the difference between "Alta Quota" and "Normal" (game fictional versions)
- the correct name of the aircraft.

 

All of us were noob in the beginning, but learning from others we got better, just admit the mistake and improve.

 

I understand that the web gives everyone the right to speak, but you should know the things and know how to do them well before writing. Otherwise, in addition to making the figure of the jerk, you confuse only inexperienced readers who would like to learn.

 

Hellrider has spoken. I will not answer you further: you don't deserve my time.

 

Edited by 5th_Hellrider
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ITA-SUP-Bigans
On 12/14/2020 at 2:18 AM, 5th_Hellrider said:

...

 

NB: I read in the comments below your video, that already 5 days ago (so before the last patch) a guy had tried and reached speeds like mine. He obviously had the ball in the middle and was leveled.

 

The difference between the "Alta Quota" and the "Normal" is the ata:

- Alta Quota - 1.30 ata (combat power)

- Normal - 1.35 ata (combat power)

 So you should use the "Normal" for your tests, considering that the historical test was at 1.34 ata.

 

..... You blamed the simulator instead (the sim was NOT able to reach historic parameters). 

....

 

...... Otherwise, in addition to making the figure of the jerk, you confuse only inexperienced readers who would like to learn.

 

.....

 

That guy reach that speed on Channel map, where MC 202 never flown and before the last update.

 

Test was done with "Alta Quota" because the VII serie was all equipped with Alfa Romeo, not DB. So Alta quota should reach 1.35 in Supergiri too, if they want to simulate that plane.

 

My two faults are these: 1) typing "the sim was NOT able to reach historic parameters" (I'm happy if others are able to reach that speed!); 2) give importance to people like you who just want to denigrate and to be offensive with other ones. 

 

I'm not blaming the sim - cause I payed till last cents, despite of someone who had as a present - it's my favourite but if something can be changed in better, I hope someone could understand my criticism.

 

I will not loose my time anymore with you too. Thx for your "efforts".

Edited by ITA-SUP-Bigans
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Auto Closing Flaps are something we will introduce in a later patch.

 

We need these for the Martlet and a number of other aircraft, not just the Macchi.

On 12/15/2020 at 3:51 PM, ITA-SUP-Bigans said:

That guy reach that speed on Channel map, where MC 202 never flown and before the last update.

 

Test was done with "Alta Quota" because the VII serie was all equipped with Alfa Romeo, not DB. So Alta quota should reach 1.35 in Supergiri too, if they want to simulate that plane.

 

My two faults are these: 1) typing "the sim was NOT able to reach historic parameters" (I'm happy if others are able to reach that speed!); 2) give importance to people like you who just want to denigrate and to be offensive with other ones. 

 

I'm not blaming the sim - cause I payed till last cents, despite of someone who had as a present - it's my favourite but if something can be changed in better, I hope someone could understand my criticism.

 

I will not loose my time anymore with you too. Thx for your "efforts".

Alta Quota versions will not generate 1.35 ata in normal mode and 1.45 in max... only 1.30 in normal mode, and 1.40 in max.

 

These aircraft use the DB601A engine... some of these were supplied to Macchi.  There may also have been some copies of this engine made by Alfa-Romeo called the R.A.1000-RC.41.Ia.

 

Most engines installed in the C.202 were the DB601Aa or the Alfa-Romeo copy of it, the R.A.1000-RC.41.I.

 

The name TF uses, i.e. 'Alta Quota', is not official Regia Aeronautica name... it is just a name to allow the player to understand what type of engine he is selecting.

 

The historical tests done were with the DB601Aa/Alfa-Romeo R.A.1000-RC.41.I

On 12/11/2020 at 5:13 AM, 4SCT_Vespa said:

Talking about speed...don't you think that the Folgore lose energy, in flight level, too slowly when throttle is in idle?

On positive aspects...finally, after the latest update, trim is operable and works fine....as a trim should be.

C.202 had very good aerodynamics... so it maintains speed well in low G turns and loses speed slowly when throttle is shut.

 

Sideslip to lose speed, or deploy flaps.

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ITA-SUP-Bigans

1-Auto closing flaps: well I'm glad to hear this.

 

2-The R.A.1000-RC.41.I was able to reach 1.35 and 1.45 (pushing MAX key). This is typed in:

a-"ALFA ROMEO MILANO MOTORE R.A. 1000 R.C. 41 I. Norme per i motoristi addetti all'assistenza" 1942;

b-"ISTRUZIONI E NORME PER IL MONTAGGIO, LA REGOLAZIONE, L'IMPIEGO E LA MANUTENZIONE del VELIVOLO DA CACCIA AER.MACCHI C.202 con motore R.A.1000 R.C. 41 I, 1a serie Breda, II+IIIa serie Macchi" 1942;

c-"ISTRUZIONI E NORME PER IL MONTAGGIO, LA REGOLAZIONE, L'IMPIEGO E LA MANUTENZIONE del VELIVOLO DA CACCIA AER.MACCHI C.202 con motore R.A.1000 R.C. 41 I, IX+X+XI serie" 1942;

 

3-The DB 601 bought by Aer. Macchi were only 419 - as I already typed, read by book I GRANDI AEREI STORICI n.4 apr-may 2003 - and 400 of them were employed for I, II and III serie. So only 19 were employed in VII serie. IMHO to make it simple in the SIM all III serie would have DB601 and all VII would have Alfa Romeo. Reading DB 601 history the difference between DB 601 Aa and DB 601-A1 is that:

a-the Aa (Up to 1,175 PS at sea level with 2,500 rpm, up to 1,100 PS at 2,400 rpm and 3,700 m altitude, B4 fuel);

b-while the A-1 (Up to 1,100 PS at sea level with 2,400 rpm, up to 1,020 PS at 2,400 rpm and 4,500 m altitude, B4 fuel).

Even if Alfa Romeo would be the copy of the A-1, the lowest quality of materials did not reach the same hp and rpm, so the III serie equipped with DB601Aa had more performances. Anyway performance showed in my speed test were hystorical reached by a 202 IX serie plane, with dust filters and armoured canopy onboard and Alfa Romeo Engine, as typed at page 196 of the book at number 2C.

 

If you're involved in the building of 202, I will share with you the evidences here typed, in a separate msg.

 

Let me know, if you need. 

Edited by ITA-SUP-Bigans
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Hello Bigans

 

I have all the information you have quoted and nothing in the current builds of the aircraft is in contradiction of what you posted.

 

We are leaving the option of the alta quota version in the Series VII because they did exist... even if in small numbers.

 

There is no hard data on the differences between the performance of the Alfa-Romeo licensed copies and the DB601 originals... other than the anecdotal information that suggested the Italian made engines were less reliable... but no concrete tests with hours between overhauls etc.  For that reason, we do not differentiate.

 

All in all, not sure what your concern is?

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