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A rough day in career


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AI teammates usually aren't the brightest, but this is by far the worst I've seen. 3 190s took down 7 P47s and I was dealing with 2 of the 190s so really it was just 1 (maybe 2) 190s on a rampage.

 

Anyone else ever have a similar experience?

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4 hours ago, Cavalier said:

Anyone else ever have a similar experience?


I've lost plenty of AI pilots but never to that obscene a degree.

Were all of those pilots shot down or did some of them just crash into the ground of their own accord?

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I had lost 3 AI wingmen by crashing into the ground last night. We were 6 109 vs 2 LaGG. We had no chance 😄

 

The day before i downed 7 planes in a 8vs8 dogfight. My wingmen did nothing, only the other squadron took out a badly damaged last fighter. 

 

Is it just me or did the your own AI became more stupid then before? 

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16 minutes ago, PaladinX said:

Was it intelligent before?

 

I haven't flown for some years and i had read that AI was getting better. So i started optimisticaly a new carreer. I understand that career system is great for beginner, but for all aces here singleplayer is a nightmare. AI has not developed much in the past years. Your own wingmen tend to do nothing, radio system is still very bugged and AI is crashing since first day. Missiondesign sends a whole squadron into suicide missions and AI is overwhelmed with it. The team has to make the content better, but year after year we only get new maps and planes. Basic functions are behind old standards. Make me very sad.

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11 hours ago, Ram399 said:


I've lost plenty of AI pilots but never to that obscene a degree.

Were all of those pilots shot down or did some of them just crash into the ground of their own accord?

I've seen plenty just crash into the ground or each other before, but in this case they were all shot down (the ones I saw anyway). Two were shot down in the first ~5 seconds of the engagement so that didn't help much.

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21 hours ago, Cavalier said:

AI teammates usually aren't the brightest, but this is by far the worst I've seen. 3 190s took down 7 P47s and I was dealing with 2 of the 190s so really it was just 1 (maybe 2) 190s on a rampage.

 

Anyone else ever have a similar experience?

 

I'm surprised, in a P-47 career, that you don't take losses this severe every sortie. The P-47 is, in my opinion, the absolute worst AI-piloted fighter.

 

What's your difficulty level? That makes a bit of a difference too.

 

On hard level, I've lost my entire flight before (in any kind of plane), but usually in smaller flights. Much more likely to have 3/4 of your flight die than 7/8. That said, there's also context. For example, on a sortie that barely takes you more than 10 miles away from your base, it's possible enemies will still be in the area while your flight begins to land. That's the most likely scenario in which my entire flight is shot down. Oftentimes I'm out of ammo by that point, so I can only sit and watch the morons be shot down while in a landing pattern. The only real defense in such cases is to simply quit the mission mid-air to end the slaughter. 

 

That said, I do think we should temper our criticism of the AI for the following reasons:

 

First, the AI cannot be bounced. There's no way to surprise it, no matter how you approach it. I think it is possible for individual planes to be bounced (that are returning to their base alone), but when in a flight, it seems impossible to catch the entire group unawares.

 

By contrast, in real life, I often read pilot's accounts of their incredulity as they shoot down several planes from a formation, only to elicit no reaction from the survivors. So by and large, I'd wager the situational awareness of the average-to-low-skill human pilot was worse than the AI here.

 

Secondly, the poor evasive action the AI takes once it's fired upon. This is a complex issue with a lot of variables. When the AI stops turning and begins to bob and weave, and it cuts throttle and tries to force you to overshoot, it's actually quite skilled in that regard. Far superior to an average human pilot (forget the crap people pull in multiplayer by abusing the G-model).

 

People criticize the constant turning the AI does, but think back to all the real gun camera footage you've ever seen. In my experience, the targets are rarely taking extreme evasive action. Typically their movements appear relatively lazy compared to what the AI does (meaning the real pilots were probably novices). At least the AI forces you (unless it's in a P-47 or other poor-turner) to almost black out as you follow it through tight turns and diving loops.

 

When you take all of that into consideration, I'd argue the AI isn't that bad. It is contextually awful in some cases, but its overall performance is adequately realistic.

 

I think what could really improve the AI, is not necessarily making it 'smarter' overall, but teaching it to handle each plane according to the plane's weaknesses and strengths. And I'm not saying to do this in-depth. I mean simple things, like making the Focke-Wulf AI utilize its roll rate. Make the P-47 AI stop turning unless going over a certain speed; the P-47's pretty much only good for one tight turn at a high speed, and then it shouldn't be turned again until speed's built up.

 

I realize a comprehensive reworking of all the AI to match every plane in detail, is asking too much in terms of development time. But certain little tweaks could, and should, be added for the planes that suffer the most while under AI control.

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I think the whole campaign system needs to be adjusted especially in Bodenplatte.  In the game it seems the Luftwaffe are far more concerned with my bombing their supply dump than the 1,000 plane raids over Berlin. The 9th AF and 2nd TAW flew ground attack missions unescorted because they likelihood of interdiction was minimal, and if the Luftwaffe did interdict them they would probably do so with more than 3 190s, a better solution would be to have the probability of intercept be low and the number of aircraft be varied, one would expect to lose 7 P47s if they were bounced by 20 190s but not by 3.

 

In terms of the AI, I would love to see better coordination, and group tactics, this is something that we had in 1946 not sure why we don't have it now.  I would love to have wingman commands in game like in 1946 saved my butt in many a career on that platform.

 

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16 hours ago, JG27_Steini said:

Is it just me or did the your own AI became more stupid then before? 


Overall there has been net improvements to the AI over the past year and a half or so- particularly with the higher level AIs and energy retention.

However, in the current build of the game it seems at least to me that AI squadronmates have had their mission priorities reworked and are now too focused on maintaining formation, thereby making them extremely unwilling to engage enemy aircraft.

Its particularly noticeable if the player is a leader on free hunt sorties, the AI will break off to engage once it spots an enemy- but as soon as a single hostile aircraft is damaged and the mission is subsequently counted as "complete" they will abandon the fight entirely and try to rejoin formation with the player, making no further attempts at engaging the enemy, even if the airspace is still extremely hostile and the player continuously issues attack orders.

 

This is something that can be pretty easily adjusted though, and I'm confident it will be rectified in future updates.
In my personal opinion, the greatest challenge currently facing the AI has to do with their gunnery- as at least currently they are almost entirely incapable of landing a shot with even a slight angle of deflection, consistently undershooting targets which are turning at a constant rate until all their ammo is expended- and this goes for every AI skill level.

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1 hour ago, oc2209 said:

I think what could really improve the AI, is not necessarily making it 'smarter' overall, but teaching it to handle each plane according to the plane's weaknesses and strengths. And I'm not saying to do this in-depth. I mean simple things, like making the Focke-Wulf AI utilize its roll rate. Make the P-47 AI stop turning unless going over a certain speed; the P-47's pretty much only good for one tight turn at a high speed, and then it shouldn't be turned again until speed's built up.

The AI actually does take some of the planes strengths/weaknesses compared to the enemy's into account. An energy fighter is much less inclined to get into a turning fight, and vice versa. Although the effect only shows up at the higher pilot levels (i.e. ace); rookies will get into a turning fight no matter what. I'm also not sure what characteristics are actually used (e.g. roll rate, turn rate at a certain speed,  ...) so the effect might be somewhat basic but the AI does handle each plane according to its weaknesses and strengths.

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4 hours ago, twilson37 said:

I think the whole campaign system needs to be adjusted especially in Bodenplatte.  In the game it seems the Luftwaffe are far more concerned with my bombing their supply dump than the 1,000 plane raids over Berlin. The 9th AF and 2nd TAW flew ground attack missions unescorted because they likelihood of interdiction was minimal, and if the Luftwaffe did interdict them they would probably do so with more than 3 190s, a better solution would be to have the probability of intercept be low and the number of aircraft be varied, one would expect to lose 7 P47s if they were bounced by 20 190s but not by 3.

 

That's not entirely right. By late 1944, most of the Luftwaffe had given up on intercepting the Allied heavy bomber raids and instead focused their attention on free hunts in search of enemy fighter-bombers and spotter planes. 

 

That said, yes, the rate of German flights intercepting a player flying for the Allies should be much lower, yes. 

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4 hours ago, oc2209 said:

 

I'm surprised, in a P-47 career, that you don't take losses this severe every sortie. The P-47 is, in my opinion, the absolute worst AI-piloted fighter.

 

What's your difficulty level? That makes a bit of a difference too.

 

On hard level, I've lost my entire flight before (in any kind of plane), but usually in smaller flights. Much more likely to have 3/4 of your flight die than 7/8. That said, there's also context. For example, on a sortie that barely takes you more than 10 miles away from your base, it's possible enemies will still be in the area while your flight begins to land. That's the most likely scenario in which my entire flight is shot down. Oftentimes I'm out of ammo by that point, so I can only sit and watch the morons be shot down while in a landing pattern. The only real defense in such cases is to simply quit the mission mid-air to end the slaughter. 

 

That said, I do think we should temper our criticism of the AI for the following reasons:

 

First, the AI cannot be bounced. There's no way to surprise it, no matter how you approach it. I think it is possible for individual planes to be bounced (that are returning to their base alone), but when in a flight, it seems impossible to catch the entire group unawares.

 

By contrast, in real life, I often read pilot's accounts of their incredulity as they shoot down several planes from a formation, only to elicit no reaction from the survivors. So by and large, I'd wager the situational awareness of the average-to-low-skill human pilot was worse than the AI here.

 

Secondly, the poor evasive action the AI takes once it's fired upon. This is a complex issue with a lot of variables. When the AI stops turning and begins to bob and weave, and it cuts throttle and tries to force you to overshoot, it's actually quite skilled in that regard. Far superior to an average human pilot (forget the crap people pull in multiplayer by abusing the G-model).

 

People criticize the constant turning the AI does, but think back to all the real gun camera footage you've ever seen. In my experience, the targets are rarely taking extreme evasive action. Typically their movements appear relatively lazy compared to what the AI does (meaning the real pilots were probably novices). At least the AI forces you (unless it's in a P-47 or other poor-turner) to almost black out as you follow it through tight turns and diving loops.

 

When you take all of that into consideration, I'd argue the AI isn't that bad. It is contextually awful in some cases, but its overall performance is adequately realistic.

 

I think what could really improve the AI, is not necessarily making it 'smarter' overall, but teaching it to handle each plane according to the plane's weaknesses and strengths. And I'm not saying to do this in-depth. I mean simple things, like making the Focke-Wulf AI utilize its roll rate. Make the P-47 AI stop turning unless going over a certain speed; the P-47's pretty much only good for one tight turn at a high speed, and then it shouldn't be turned again until speed's built up.

 

I realize a comprehensive reworking of all the AI to match every plane in detail, is asking too much in terms of development time. But certain little tweaks could, and should, be added for the planes that suffer the most while under AI control.

Yeah this was on hard difficulty as I wanted a challenge (apparently it was too much a challenge for the AI XD) But this was during one of the longer missions just as we crossed into enemy territory. Everyone seemed engaged in the fight once the 190s made their first pass. They all just lost miserably.

 

I'm honestly pretty happy with the AI improvements that have been made when the AI is in opposition. It's the teammates that get annoying. As you said they will ignore getting slaughtered while they try to land or will fly a perfect formation 1000 feet above you while you fight for your life against two 190s on the deck by yourself.

Also the AI chasing you 30 miles back to base can be kind of annoying...

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