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G-resistance of the virtual pilot - opinions and discussion


G-resistance of the virtual pilot - who is the prototype?  

593 members have voted

  1. 1. Which G-resistance should have a pilot in the IL-2?

    • IL-2 should have G-resistance parameters of intermediate pilot as it have now
    • IL-2 should have G-resistance parameters of over-medium pilot, like an ace
    • I'm disagree that current G-resistance model is realistic and corresponds to intermediate pilot abilities.

This poll is closed to new votes


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14 hours ago, DD_Perfesser said:

Porpoising is the biggest issue but I still think the sudden lights out is too much.

I saw a few Red Bull races where the pilots regularly go from 1 to 9 or 10 G in half a second in a reversal without blacking out. The Spit seems a bit much....

 

Red Bull racers wear G-suits.

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20 hours ago, AnPetrovich said:


I guess you know that this group of Red Bull pilots is significantly more resistant to high Gs than average (even aerobatic) pilots? And by the way, they use anti-g suits.

@AnPetrovich ,The Russian guy in the video that you shared who was RED BULL air race champion seems that is wearing a tracksuit instead a G-suit.
Are you sure that ALL Red Bull air race pilots wear Anti-G suit?? 
By the way it will be my next question when meet again with my fellow Juan Velarde (Red Bull air race pilot) in my work or in the FIO.
 

 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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3 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

@AnPetrovich ,The Russian guy in the video that you shared who was RED BULL air race champion seems that is wearing a tracksuit instead a G-suit.
Are you sure that Red Bull air race pilots wear Anti-G suit?? 
By the way it will be my next question when meet again with my fellow Juan Velarde (Red Bull air race pilot) in my work or in the FIO.
 

 

How can you tell it's a track suit? I can´t see an ADIDAS logo on it

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6 hours ago, chuter said:

 

Red Bull racers wear G-suits.

Finally yes!,  it is true, several pilots of Red Bull air races using autonomous WATER-FILLED G-suits (about 7 kg of weight) but they are very different to fighter pilot G-suits pressurised with air from the airplane. 
 

Quote

Made by Autoflug, the suit worn by the Air Race pilots is completely autonomous. This means it doesn’t require a connection to the aircraft, and it uses ‘fluid muscles’ in place of pressurised air.
The fluid muscles are sewn into the g-suit, and they help maintain the pilot’s circulation. Water-filled tubes run from the pilot's shoulder, down his abdomen, legs and to his ankles. Under g-force, the water quickly flows downwards, and compresses the part of the suit which covers the thighs. This means that the pilot's blood won't pool, and can keep pumping into his upper body/head where it's needed to help him keep focus and achieve the perfect racing line around one of the Red Bull Air Race tracks.

The g-suit weighs about 6.7 kg and will contain around 4 litres of fluid. After the end of the Red Bull Air Race season, the fluid inside the muscles has to be replaced as the fluid (around 20-30ml) will have evaporated. If more than 50ml is lost, then the whole fluid muscle unit will have to be replaced.

We’ve established that outstanding physical fitness and the flight suit are key to the Red Bull Air Race pilots keeping conscious at 10G, but there is another element.
While putting the plane through a vertical-turning manoeuvre, the pilot must execute a series of breathing and straining techniques. In 0.1 seconds, the pilot must keep his lungs filled, push air our between his lips and tense his calves, thighs, buttocks and stomach. 0.1 seconds. That’s quicker than it takes to blink. Think about that.

 

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4 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

In according to that charts a Bf-109K4 pilot must be able to hold 5 to 10 seconds in a 6 G´s manoeuvre, without instantly blackout as it is occurring in my video. ..Any explanation for this @AnPetrovich??

If you see the poll 64% of people like the way things are modeled with G tolerances, you must not really like it by seeing how much you insist.

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12 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

If you see the poll 64% of people like the way things are modeled with G tolerances, you must not really like it by seeing how much you insist.

 

With the new G-model it is mostly numbers game and surprise boom-n-zoom attacks, because many manoeuvres that pilots used to be able to perform to get out of jam, now result in an instant blackout. For me this makes the sim less interesting.

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4 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

If you see the poll 64% of people like the way things are modeled with G tolerances, you must not really like it by seeing how much you insist.

I´m not asking you; ... but if you read the answer of the poll, about 64% of people has answering that "IL-2 should have G-resistance parameters of intermediate pilot as it have now", And i´m asking if that parameters are applied correctly to the Bf-109K4. 

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16 minutes ago, WheelwrightPL said:

 

With the new G-model it is mostly numbers game and surprise boom-n-zoom attacks, because many manoeuvres that pilots used to be able to perform to get out of jam, now result in an instant blackout. For me this makes the sim less interesting.

 

if you're referring to the airplane circus we had prior to G-forces upgrade, then I'm definitely against that. It's on par with the push-pull defensive porpoising we're all trying to vote out...

 

It's not realistic and it's definitely not interesting. If you want it back, then set up a server with the g-model turned off and enjoy it all the way.

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10 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

Yeah, sure, give TrackIR users more perks over VR users, as if 360 owl neck is not OP enough....

 

I think my proposal treats both equally (minus the vomit), as a Track IR user would be suddenly looking either at the upper canopy, or the floor depending on the severity of G's induced with maybe the periphery of the screen to reorient their eyes on target.

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Just now, Noisemaker said:

 

I think my proposal treats both equally (minus the vomit), as a Track IR user would be suddenly looking either at the upper canopy, or the floor depending on the severity of G's induced with maybe the periphery of the screen to reorient their eyes on target.

 

The VR with unsynced camera will make most people sick IRL. 

 

Any movement in VR that is not supported by your inner ear will trigger the vomit reflex. Some people can overcome it with experience, i know i have, but not all. And it is not pleasant and usually put you out for that session... it takes good 20 minuted to recover from that. 

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29 minutes ago, Didney_World said:

It's on par with the push-pull defensive porpoising we're all trying to vote out...

 

It's not realistic and it's definitely not interesting.

I´m agree

 

17 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

This kinds of Negative G push that would result in the pilot testicles lodging themselves filmy next to the tonsils :crazy:

That things occurs when you rip the rudder and elevator with a single burst, the plane falls like a brick. :rolleyes: 

Edited by III/JG52_Otto_-I-
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8 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

The VR with unsynced camera will make most people sick IRL. 

 

Any movement in VR that is not supported by your inner ear will trigger the vomit reflex. Some people can overcome it with experience, i know i have, but not all. And it is not pleasant and usually put you out for that session... it takes good 20 minuted to recover from that. 

Well, if you're going to go VR, why not go all the way and get something like this?:  https://dofreality.com/  ;)

I can't even afford Track IR, so feel free to ignore those of us in the cheap seats just trying to help.

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24 minutes ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

 

That things occurs when you rip the rudder and elevator with a single burst, the plane falls like a brick. :rolleyes: 

 

That plane continued flying for 5 minutes and then ditched because of water leak or something. 

https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/log/890979/?tour=26

That thing does not happen when you cut off the controls, you need to blow off the whole tail to have your center of G move forward, 109 was longitudinally stable, and at that speed, cutting the controls would cause the plane to pitch up, not down. 

 

4 minutes ago, Noisemaker said:

Well, when you're done, my suggestion will make more sense.  ;)

 

So people who invest upwards of a small family car in to gaming rig will be handicapped, and your 50 bucks joy FreeTrack players can just dab on them? 

 

suuuuuuure, im sold.  

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3 minutes ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

So people who invest upwards of a small family car in to gaming rig will be handicapped, and your 50 bucks joy FreeTrack players can just dab on them? 

 

suuuuuuure, im sold.  

Why not? It's a free dictatorship.

........................................................Joke




>You

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1 hour ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

In according to that charts a Bf-109K4 pilot must be able to hold 5 to 10 seconds in a 6 G´s manoeuvre, without instantly blackout as it is occurring in my video. ..Any explanation for this @AnPetrovich??


That's not how the chart works, because the end point is after the time passed with that acceleration rate starting from 0G.

So in the case of the first chart, with the 1.4 G/s mark:

Manuver starts 0s =>  0G

1 s => 1.4 G
2s => 2.8 G
3s => 4.2 G
4s => 5.6 G
5s => 7 G => crossed the line => pilot lost consciousness

So it's not 5 seconds at 6G,  it's 5 seconds to get to 6 G going from 0 G at 1.4 G per second.

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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1 hour ago, III/JG52_Otto_-I- said:

And i´m asking if that parameters are applied correctly to the Bf-109K4. 

 

as far as I understand how the G-force model works in this game is that it applies to the Pilot and not the plane. What you're asking for does not make sense in that context.

 

On another note I have some generic questions for you:
-  what does it matter if you black out at 5.5G vs 6.0G ?  Everyone will black out like that, i.e. it's across the board.

-  And if you're concerned that the airplane maneuverability is affected, well, is it really that drastic? If you can pull 2-5 degrees more, so can the other guy. Think about the OP allies plane the mighty Tempest. It's already overpowered against anything on the axis's side in BOBP.   Do you want it to have MORE power? 😄

 

 

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I'm sorry I'm so late to this topic.  However, I think it may be somewhat insightful.

First, a few points:

1. I don't know everything

2. Your mileage may vary.

3. My experience was more modern

 

I'm a former USAF pilot.  I was a couple months from graduating in T-38s at Sheppard.  My dad's health got real bad following a stroke and I ended up getting a hardship out.  (became a FAA controller and now I'm an airline pilot / long story for another time)

 

First off, my overall impression is that the G tolerance of pilots is a bit low.  I see quite a few people talking, having never had anything more intense than a roller coaster ride in real life.  I fully understand that modern training versus the past may have some impact, but with the USAF using G suits in 44, I'm sure the squeeze your legs, ass, stomach wasn't exactly rocket science back then.

 

When I left the T-37 (I'm old) for the T-38, they sent us out to Holloman to the fuge. We ran this profile (shamless copy paste from somebody's blog):

4 G for 45 seconds (0.1 G per second)
5 G for 30 seconds (1 G per second)
6 G  for 30 seconds (6 G per second)
7.5 G for 15 seconds (6 G per second)
6 G  for 10 seconds "check 6" (6 G per second)

 

You can see the duration and onset values.  The first 4g is just a warm up and you find out your resting G Tolerance (no strain).  I think I remember I didn't have to strain at all.  The 5g is where we started practicing.  Everyone is different.  Your blood pressure combined with the distance from your heart to your head is what makes all the difference for your resting values.  Also, your body reacts different after you have done some straining.  Quite a few people can do the above profile without any graying, and we all passed without blacking out... soo....

 

When we would go out to the MOA, we would do a G-Ex and gradually onset more Gs to warm our bodies up. I think I remember we would start with a gradual pull to 4 and then a second to 5 or 6. (this was over 13 years ago, so cut me some slack) I think the G training is more about stuff like this, understanding how your body works than modern pilots magically getting a 2g "buff". We put on our speed jeans (g-suits) only on sorties where we would pull Gs.  We didn't wear g suits in the 37 at all.  Obviously people pass 9g profiles for the 16,22, etc.  In the 16 they actually recline the seat to simulate the cockpit position.  The seat angle and leg position does make a difference (although it is mostly small)

 

So what would I do?

1. Increase the G tolerance. Seriously. I would add a blanket 1.0G positive in a heartbeat without even thinking.  I think the player character (warmed up) should be able to do 5.5-6.5 gs for 30 seconds without blacking out (no g suit/standard aircraft)

2. Aircraft where your legs go straight out get aircraft specific 0.25g extra positive tolerance.  The spitfire has a higher position for your feet for this reason. The 109 and 190 fall in this category.

3. Don't just have g tolerance drop off.  It should rise initially and then fall. (this is the G training) If you are flying straight and level for hours and then freak out and crank a hard turn when bounced, your g tolerance won't be as good as somebody who was alert and already just did a little turning)  Your body adapts and your physical person is more ready for Gs.

 

Just because the current model feels "punishing", doesn't mean it is realistic.  When you reduce the g forces, your vision comes back rapidly in most cases.  Now is waaaay too slow for non blackout situations.  It isn't right at all.  I can understand it being slower if you were about to black out totally, but just slowly pulling it down to blind and letting go it should come back very quickly.

Edited by sonicapollo
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7 hours ago, sonicapollo said:

 When you reduce the g forces, your vision comes back rapidly in most cases.  Now is waaaay too slow for non blackout situations.  It isn't right at all.  I can understand it being slower if you were about to black out totally, but just slowly pulling it down to blind and letting go it should come back very quickly.

 

 

This is one gripe that i also have, the comeback after G strain is very long in some cases. Ofc, total LOC recovery is very individual thing, hard to quantify.

 

But, what about negative G's? Do you have any input on that and the current pull push meta we have going on? 

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We never really pushed negative Gs. The T38 (and most modern fighters) have insane roll rates. In most circumstances, you would just roll and then pull positive. 
 

I remember hearing Sean Tucker (acro pilot) talk about positive to negative to positive g transitions. The chance of blacking out quickly was quite high. The transition and onset values can be just brutal. 

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21 hours ago, sonicapollo said:

I'm sorry I'm so late to this topic.  However, I think it may be somewhat insightful.

First, a few points:

1. I don't know everything

2. Your mileage may vary.

3. My experience was more modern

 

I'm a former USAF pilot.  I was a couple months from graduating in T-38s at Sheppard.  My dad's health got real bad following a stroke and I ended up getting a hardship out.  (became a FAA controller and now I'm an airline pilot / long story for another time)

 

First off, my overall impression is that the G tolerance of pilots is a bit low.  I see quite a few people talking, having never had anything more intense than a roller coaster ride in real life.  I fully understand that modern training versus the past may have some impact, but with the USAF using G suits in 44, I'm sure the squeeze your legs, ass, stomach wasn't exactly rocket science back then.

 

When I left the T-37 (I'm old) for the T-38, they sent us out to Holloman to the fuge. We ran this profile (shamless copy paste from somebody's blog):

4 G for 45 seconds (0.1 G per second)
5 G for 30 seconds (1 G per second)
6 G  for 30 seconds (6 G per second)
7.5 G for 15 seconds (6 G per second)
6 G  for 10 seconds "check 6" (6 G per second)

 

You can see the duration and onset values.  The first 4g is just a warm up and you find out your resting G Tolerance (no strain).  I think I remember I didn't have to strain at all.  The 5g is where we started practicing.  Everyone is different.  Your blood pressure combined with the distance from your heart to your head is what makes all the difference for your resting values.  Also, your body reacts different after you have done some straining.  Quite a few people can do the above profile without any graying, and we all passed without blacking out... soo....

 

When we would go out to the MOA, we would do a G-Ex and gradually onset more Gs to warm our bodies up. I think I remember we would start with a gradual pull to 4 and then a second to 5 or 6. (this was over 13 years ago, so cut me some slack) I think the G training is more about stuff like this, understanding how your body works than modern pilots magically getting a 2g "buff". We put on our speed jeans (g-suits) only on sorties where we would pull Gs.  We didn't wear g suits in the 37 at all.  Obviously people pass 9g profiles for the 16,22, etc.  In the 16 they actually recline the seat to simulate the cockpit position.  The seat angle and leg position does make a difference (although it is mostly small)

 

So what would I do?

1. Increase the G tolerance. Seriously. I would add a blanket 1.0G positive in a heartbeat without even thinking.  I think the player character (warmed up) should be able to do 5.5-6.5 gs for 30 seconds without blacking out (no g suit/standard aircraft)

2. Aircraft where your legs go straight out get aircraft specific 0.25g extra positive tolerance.  The spitfire has a higher position for your feet for this reason. The 109 and 190 fall in this category.

3. Don't just have g tolerance drop off.  It should rise initially and then fall. (this is the G training) If you are flying straight and level for hours and then freak out and crank a hard turn when bounced, your g tolerance won't be as good as somebody who was alert and already just did a little turning)  Your body adapts and your physical person is more ready for Gs.

 

Just because the current model feels "punishing", doesn't mean it is realistic.  When you reduce the g forces, your vision comes back rapidly in most cases.  Now is waaaay too slow for non blackout situations.  It isn't right at all.  I can understand it being slower if you were about to black out totally, but just slowly pulling it down to blind and letting go it should come back very quickly.

Thanks Sonic 

very useful information, body type, blood pressure, even mind set could play a factor.

having never pulled more G's than a ferris wheel is it something Pilots build a tolerance for over time and experience?

 

way late to the conversation but since I can't load the sim without web service so assume my stats HR's flying, ground targets and enemy planes destroyed are saved somewhere, could tolerance for G force be improved over time and experience?   

 

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It is hard for me to put myself in everyone’s shoes.  Everyone is different. We had thanksgiving with commissioned officers in their “homes” at Maxwell AFB during OTS. I got partnered with an engineer that was sent to the centrifuge. She played us her tape. She was a g monster. She could talk while pulling (I think) 9 gs. (This is very very rare)
 

I believe the g force ex maneuvers we did were to prepare our form, mind, and get our body ready to fight. Your body does everything to try and keep the brain working.  Sloppy control of your abs or poor breathing technique can all cause you to lose vision. etc.  I think your body goes in survival mode and raises your blood pressure. 
 

I wouldn’t implement any rpg elements in the sim. Sure, anyone can get more physical fitness or better form, but I don’t think you would see much change with your average operational pilot. 
 

Shame is I came in so late. I doubt a dev will end up reading any of this. 

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23 hours ago, sonicapollo said:

I'm sorry I'm so late to this topic.  However, I think it may be somewhat insightful.

First, a few points:

1. I don't know everything

2. Your mileage may vary.

3. My experience was more modern

 

I'm a former USAF pilot.  I was a couple months from graduating in T-38s at Sheppard.  My dad's health got real bad following a stroke and I ended up getting a hardship out.  (became a FAA controller and now I'm an airline pilot / long story for another time)

 

First off, my overall impression is that the G tolerance of pilots is a bit low.  I see quite a few people talking, having never had anything more intense than a roller coaster ride in real life.  I fully understand that modern training versus the past may have some impact, but with the USAF using G suits in 44, I'm sure the squeeze your legs, ass, stomach wasn't exactly rocket science back then.

 

When I left the T-37 (I'm old) for the T-38, they sent us out to Holloman to the fuge. We ran this profile (shamless copy paste from somebody's blog):

4 G for 45 seconds (0.1 G per second)
5 G for 30 seconds (1 G per second)
6 G  for 30 seconds (6 G per second)
7.5 G for 15 seconds (6 G per second)
6 G  for 10 seconds "check 6" (6 G per second)

 

You can see the duration and onset values.  The first 4g is just a warm up and you find out your resting G Tolerance (no strain).  I think I remember I didn't have to strain at all.  The 5g is where we started practicing.  Everyone is different.  Your blood pressure combined with the distance from your heart to your head is what makes all the difference for your resting values.  Also, your body reacts different after you have done some straining.  Quite a few people can do the above profile without any graying, and we all passed without blacking out... soo....

 

When we would go out to the MOA, we would do a G-Ex and gradually onset more Gs to warm our bodies up. I think I remember we would start with a gradual pull to 4 and then a second to 5 or 6. (this was over 13 years ago, so cut me some slack) I think the G training is more about stuff like this, understanding how your body works than modern pilots magically getting a 2g "buff". We put on our speed jeans (g-suits) only on sorties where we would pull Gs.  We didn't wear g suits in the 37 at all.  Obviously people pass 9g profiles for the 16,22, etc.  In the 16 they actually recline the seat to simulate the cockpit position.  The seat angle and leg position does make a difference (although it is mostly small)

 

So what would I do?

1. Increase the G tolerance. Seriously. I would add a blanket 1.0G positive in a heartbeat without even thinking.  I think the player character (warmed up) should be able to do 5.5-6.5 gs for 30 seconds without blacking out (no g suit/standard aircraft)

2. Aircraft where your legs go straight out get aircraft specific 0.25g extra positive tolerance.  The spitfire has a higher position for your feet for this reason. The 109 and 190 fall in this category.

3. Don't just have g tolerance drop off.  It should rise initially and then fall. (this is the G training) If you are flying straight and level for hours and then freak out and crank a hard turn when bounced, your g tolerance won't be as good as somebody who was alert and already just did a little turning)  Your body adapts and your physical person is more ready for Gs.

 

Just because the current model feels "punishing", doesn't mean it is realistic.  When you reduce the g forces, your vision comes back rapidly in most cases.  Now is waaaay too slow for non blackout situations.  It isn't right at all.  I can understand it being slower if you were about to black out totally, but just slowly pulling it down to blind and letting go it should come back very quickly.

 

Excellent summary and suggestions Sonicapollo! One of the best concise mini write-ups i have seen!

 

The only question I have is how well were regular pilot trained to prevent GLOC. In all my WW2 reading, i do not recall one mention of any official training/instruction, even though reportedly the development of the AGSM as we know it today dates back to WW2 days..  

 

Now, if most pilots had at least some training/basic understanding of some variation of AGSM, then great, i agree with your proposal 100%

 

On the other hand...it is super easy to black out at 6-7 Gs....- with no strain or even worse, with a deep exhale/briefly relaxing...

  

btw, i had to go Holloman 3x...

 

took me few tries to pass the f16 profile..................maybe the most strenuous physical thing i ever did.. :)

 

Edited by SCG_Tzigy
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Whatever the majority wants is fine with me, as long as the AI is subject to same parameters.

I presume that is or will be the case?

By the way, I an amazed by the knowledge so many of you have. Very interesting but mostly way beyond my comprehension!

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On 9/12/2020 at 5:40 AM, sonicapollo said:

I'm sorry I'm so late to this topic.  However, I think it may be somewhat insightful.

First, a few points:

1. I don't know everything

2. Your mileage may vary.

3. My experience was more modern

 

I'm a former USAF pilot.  I was a couple months from graduating in T-38s at Sheppard.  My dad's health got real bad following a stroke and I ended up getting a hardship out.  (became a FAA controller and now I'm an airline pilot / long story for another time)

 

First off, my overall impression is that the G tolerance of pilots is a bit low.  I see quite a few people talking, having never had anything more intense than a roller coaster ride in real life.  I fully understand that modern training versus the past may have some impact, but with the USAF using G suits in 44, I'm sure the squeeze your legs, ass, stomach wasn't exactly rocket science back then.

 

When I left the T-37 (I'm old) for the T-38, they sent us out to Holloman to the fuge. We ran this profile (shamless copy paste from somebody's blog):

4 G for 45 seconds (0.1 G per second)
5 G for 30 seconds (1 G per second)
6 G  for 30 seconds (6 G per second)
7.5 G for 15 seconds (6 G per second)
6 G  for 10 seconds "check 6" (6 G per second)

 

You can see the duration and onset values.  The first 4g is just a warm up and you find out your resting G Tolerance (no strain).  I think I remember I didn't have to strain at all.  The 5g is where we started practicing.  Everyone is different.  Your blood pressure combined with the distance from your heart to your head is what makes all the difference for your resting values.  Also, your body reacts different after you have done some straining.  Quite a few people can do the above profile without any graying, and we all passed without blacking out... soo....

 

When we would go out to the MOA, we would do a G-Ex and gradually onset more Gs to warm our bodies up. I think I remember we would start with a gradual pull to 4 and then a second to 5 or 6. (this was over 13 years ago, so cut me some slack) I think the G training is more about stuff like this, understanding how your body works than modern pilots magically getting a 2g "buff". We put on our speed jeans (g-suits) only on sorties where we would pull Gs.  We didn't wear g suits in the 37 at all.  Obviously people pass 9g profiles for the 16,22, etc.  In the 16 they actually recline the seat to simulate the cockpit position.  The seat angle and leg position does make a difference (although it is mostly small)

 

So what would I do?

1. Increase the G tolerance. Seriously. I would add a blanket 1.0G positive in a heartbeat without even thinking.  I think the player character (warmed up) should be able to do 5.5-6.5 gs for 30 seconds without blacking out (no g suit/standard aircraft)

2. Aircraft where your legs go straight out get aircraft specific 0.25g extra positive tolerance.  The spitfire has a higher position for your feet for this reason. The 109 and 190 fall in this category.

3. Don't just have g tolerance drop off.  It should rise initially and then fall. (this is the G training) If you are flying straight and level for hours and then freak out and crank a hard turn when bounced, your g tolerance won't be as good as somebody who was alert and already just did a little turning)  Your body adapts and your physical person is more ready for Gs.

 

Just because the current model feels "punishing", doesn't mean it is realistic.  When you reduce the g forces, your vision comes back rapidly in most cases.  Now is waaaay too slow for non blackout situations.  It isn't right at all.  I can understand it being slower if you were about to black out totally, but just slowly pulling it down to blind and letting go it should come back very quickly.

Thanks for your insightful commentary and I agree with almost everything you brought forward. I do have a question on centrifuge profiles.

 

Were these profiles your first experience with heavy G loads or did you perform some amount perviously with the training aircraft(such as in a back seat with instructor)?

Also, did you or your colleagues have to Strain when under the 5-6 G loads?

 

The reason I ask is because as Tzigy said, AGSM in world war II was in its infancy and not sure if squeezing of ass, legs and abdomen were done all together by pilots(I´d imagine stomach only) and if the technique performed correctly for full effectiveness.

Also another thing to consider, if there was any sort of minimal AGSM training, there would probably be a difference in training time  and technique spent in it between 1941and 1945. Furthermore, the time spent in G training (aerobatics and Mock dogfights) varies wildly between the year 1941-45 and between LW,RAF,VVS and USAF, so that´s also a comprimise to consider. 

 

That is the main reason i´m a bit undecided on increase of G tolerance across the board. Also, I´m ok with the current G profiles as it is from a compromise perspective because looking around and acquiring SA in real life under even 4 G is a PAIN. I think the devs are looking at Increasing tolerance at >1G onset rate, as per the sources brought by Floppy Sock and this should help a lot.

As it is now, if the  onset rate is gradual (which some of it will be corrected) you can sustain 5G for almost a minute, and it seems to be in line with G tolerance litterature posted around. It´s just the High onset rates that really punish G tolerance, and seemingly incorrectly so. I think if the devs correct this along with push-pull, the current model would be pretty good.

 

If anyone knows of any literature regarding AGSM in WWII please post

 

I recently had the experience of sustaining a 3.5-4G in an aircraft for 10-15 seconds, and I can´t imagine holding it for a minute. 5-6 G for 30 Seconds?I really doubt it

. With practice and training sure, maybe.

Edited by ACG_Vietkong
typo
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We pulled Gs in the T37, but I don’t think we regularly did more than about 4. I remember going out to the MOA and just pulling 5 or so for fun. (No g suit) on a solo flight.  As I said, my experience was more modern. AGSM was developed in WWII.  I’m not sure of the differences.  Our training for g strain wasn’t very long during phase I. It basically was an enlisted guy talking us through what to squeeze and how to breathe. I think some used to grunt and growl (back in the day) more than the modern short breaths. 
 

With the g suit you have to start straining as you go north of 4 gs, but it is pretty manageable. I’m tall, but I didn’t have any trouble while doing the 6 g profile in the check six position.  The centrifuge is also a bit harder than real life. You get some weird gyroscopic effects in your brain from the swing and rock of the arm on the Fuge itself. You are making an awfully tight circle. It really was our first time just getting punished by constant, hard g forces. I think when you get north of 7 or so that most people start finding the limits of their technique and body. 

Edited by sonicapollo
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By the way, if you all want to understand more how pilots train to cope with G forces, check out the excellent podcast episode from The Fighter Pilot Podcast: https://www.fighterpilotpodcast.com/episodes/006-pulling-gs/

 

Quote

 

On this episode, US Navy aerospace operational physiologist Commander Susan “Cyclone” Jay explains how flying high-performance jet aircraft takes a toll on the human body.

 

We discuss pulling Gs, air sickness, decompression sickness, trapped gas, and spatial disorientation.

 

 

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As has been pointed out, the US Navy in trials against  the Corsair and Hellcat specifically commented that the seating position combined with raised leg position in the FW190 helped with G-tolerance. 
 

Love the new g-tolerance model but I’ve never felt like the 190 got a fair shake in that regard.

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On 9/11/2020 at 10:40 PM, sonicapollo said:

First off, my overall impression is that the G tolerance of pilots is a bit low.  I see quite a few people talking, having never had anything more intense than a roller coaster ride in real life.

 

On 9/11/2020 at 10:40 PM, sonicapollo said:

Seriously. I would add a blanket 1.0G positive in a heartbeat without even thinking.

 

Welcome. This chart from 1944 might be worth considering WRT the current 6 g GLOC threshold in the game.

 

110552146_P-51divechart.thumb.jpg.75bbad2387e00af02c44f25c5f6e7037.jpg

 

On 9/12/2020 at 7:17 AM, sonicapollo said:

We never really pushed negative Gs. The T38 (and most modern fighters) have insane roll rates. In most circumstances, you would just roll and then pull positive.

 

LOL...never had to work on your gun's defense in UPT?

 

4 hours ago, sonicapollo said:

The centrifuge is also a bit harder than real life.

 

I think that's why in some communities it was called the "Spin and Puke." 🤢

 

5 hours ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Also, did you or your colleagues have to Strain when under the 5-6 G loads?

 

You didn't ask me, but when I went to Brooks in 1986, I had been flying a bunch of BFM sorties as an RTU IP, ~18 in the two months prior. Our profile was different, without my g-suit inflating, my tolerance without straining was 6 g. That is NOT to say I didn't use an AGSM when I was flying. By the same token, two Gomers (F-5 Aggressor guys) both went to sleep in this test at 4 g...yes they were hungover from a late night down on San Antonio's River walk.

 

6 hours ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

Also, I´m ok with the current G profiles as it is from a compromise perspective because looking around and acquiring SA in real life under even 4 G is a PAIN.

 

I have subtle issues with the current model, but I never felt pain while pulling g and looking around. Got a sore neck and g measles from time to time.

 

 

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1 hour ago, busdriver said:

 

 

 

I have subtle issues with the current model, but I never felt pain while pulling g and looking around. Got a sore neck and g measles from time to time.

 

 

 

I had my neck strained two times when i was starting VR flying, on the second visit, the doctor asked about it...

 

Imagine explaining your VR hobby to someone, the look on her face...

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