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G-resistance of the virtual pilot - opinions and discussion

G-resistance of the virtual pilot - who is the prototype?  

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  1. 1. Which G-resistance should have a pilot in the IL-2?

    • IL-2 should have G-resistance parameters of intermediate pilot as it have now
    • IL-2 should have G-resistance parameters of over-medium pilot, like an ace
    • I'm disagree that current G-resistance model is realistic and corresponds to intermediate pilot abilities.


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I voted for point 3 because I think that the pulling realization of the G-forces tolerance kills the player's individual skill, his ability to fly the plane.

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In my opinion, the general system is very good and solid, has a good research behind it and seems plausible to me. I have nonetheless a couple of concerns in some specific situations.

1- Others has already pointed to the problem with the light tolerance to negative forces. Specially the push-pull cycle.

2- The onset of black out in quick maneouvers in planes with light stick forces (spits, tempests, yaks...) is too quick: Although you can learn to be very gentle with the stick (and also helps a long joystick at home plus applying negative trim) I think that the problem arises by the human-machine interface. At home, we do not have the sensorial feedback that you would have in the real plane. First, you do not fly oblivious of the G forces you are sustaining until you start greying out. Even something like 1,5G is very notorious to your body. The other thing is the lack of feed back from the joystick. At the typical speeds in which you can black out, the stick forces increases and, in real life, you have the sensorial feedback of the force you need to apply to achieve them. Again, unless you have a force-feed back joystick, you are completely unaware of it.

The sum result is that, for example, you could be maneovuring at 2.5-3G but, unless you look at the G meter, you won´t realize of it in the game (with experience you can start guessing it). Then you react to a movement of the enemy and apply a bit of a movement (sometimes a flicker of your wrist) and, in those planes with light stick forces, you will, most likely, black out without remission.

I think that the dev should either tone down a bit the onset of the g-lock or add cues (visual or acuistic) to help us better cope with them.

Edited by HR_Zunzun
grammatical
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Flying Circus also has pilots blacking out very quickly. Not supported by real pilot memoirs.

Conclude that FC pilots need more G tolerance.

 

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Things can be tweaked yes, especially in terms of neg-g, but in general yes/no terms I think the G-system was a huge improvement and I like it as it is. 

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Why not have a selectable option such as "pilot fitness"? It would be similar to when you choose novice or ace for the AI in a quick battle. Only this option changes the parameters for your virtual pilot. Your virtual "novice" isn't going to have the same level of experience  or practiced techniques in dealing with high G loads and is going to be more prone to blacking out.

 

In fact, this could also be extended to adjustments in plane visibility and spotting, depending on how it's implemented of course. So, the novice pilot isn't going to be as good at this either - i.e. making it harder to see enemy aircfaft.

 

In multiplayer servers, these selectable options could be disabled to force equality in spotting and pilot fitness. For single player career mode, this option could be selected at the beginning of a campaign and improve over time based on factors such as number of aircraft shot down, sucessful missions, etc. You could start out as a rookie pilot and develop into an ace - in terms of spotting ability and fitness. This would allow us to better simulate things like being a barely trained Luftwaffe pilot during Bodenplatte or the absolute ace waging a one-man war over the Steppes of Russia.

 

"Fitness" could also be tied to wound recovery in the single player campaigns. A pilot who has "recovered" from his wounds might still need a week or two (or even more) regain his previous level of fitness. For example, think about the effect that his head wound may have had on von Richtofen during World War I.

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@=VARP=Ribbon You keep going on about how you want experienced pilot G tolerance and not "newbie" but that's exactly what we have, go back and read the OP from Han, he mentiones repeatedly that we have an intermediate pilot's G tolerance.

For example: "And values of all these factors are adjusted for intermediate fighter pilots." 

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11 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

The AI uses the same G-force model as the player.

 

I'm sorry Luke, but years of going up against the AI, and seeing them perform maneuvers that would put me in total black out forces me to call BS on this.

Edited by BlitzPig_EL

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12 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I don't mind the current system as it applies to human pilots, but the AI all seem to be G proof supermen.  The AI need a really good look at their G tolerance routine, either that or the humans get the super ace G tolerance that they have.

I find what AI do is more a kind of intelligence thing. To me it seems to notice your maneuver the moment you do it. AI responces and spotting as for resistance for G forces is a Issue connected. As they perform, it seems to tolerate G forces, I agree on that. But before the easiest way to get a AI kill was making them blackout in hard maneuvers. 
I just believe they got parameters we do not have. With no physically resistance we 

have short notice from grey to black

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Thanks for the poll.  I'm fine with the player's blackouts as they are, so no worries there. 

I'll look forward to further polls, where you ask the community what they think of the current system of AI radio calls and fire/smoke duration.

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I like the G-model as-is.

 

As for WW1 pilots blacking out, you don't see that in memoirs because they didn't fly their aircraft like their lives didn't matter.

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Keep as it is, with greater punishment for negative g to reduce ‘flipping’. 5 minutes of aerobatics is tiring and pushing the stick to extremities should not be realistic. We can from our chairs, but it generally is not a way that anyone flew for more than a few seconds.

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It’s like the jumping in FPS shooters it shouldn’t be possible to keep jumping 3 feet with out fatigue. I suggest the same for push pull +,- g maneuvers. With a recovery time also.

Edited by 71st_AH_Mastiff

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First im happy to see a poll instead of just making a change based on  repeated complaints from a small amount of players.

 

Since this poll is a very clear example of the Silent majority Vs the Loud Minority.

 

And second.

 

Im mostly happy with the G-Resistance as it

only changes it would like made is regarding the Negative G (like many others have also talked about).

 

So i want it to stay on the Intermediate level but with some continuing tweaking since the Negative Gs dont feel quite right.

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To begin: This is another great conversation - thanks for asking for our input.

 

I voted for #2, as from a skill/pilot training perspective The RAF, VVS and Luftwaffe pilots had been fighting long before the USAAF joined the fight in Europe in '43 (more combat experience) and understood Anti-G Straining Maneuvers (AGSM) and taught them during training. Per the graph below: We see the difference in training over time and both side reached their peaks at different stages of the war. So either this difference in training is factored into the G physiology or just make all pilots the better than average (but keep the G-Suit it's advantage) with the idea that they were all well trained.

 

image.thumb.png.ceba4f2b5c1dabbe402e70261cd557ec.png

 

There is also seat position:

It seems the P-51 pilot is not leaning as far back as the Fw 190D pilot (angle a) also the Fw 190D pilot is sitting in an incline (knees above the waistline) 

 

image.png.e6d9ba11fe10e48321f9c5afe0e864ef.png

 

image.thumb.png.286ea5bb53f509ea1769d59118ee7680.png

 

 

Quote

... This scientific data includes many parameters like G-force strength, it's increasing speed, it's duration, it's direction, it's repeatability and frequency, rest period and other factors. So we have all these factors inside our new blackout model included.

 

@HanI noticed that in this "scientific data" the aircraft's design (i.e. seat position/incline) and training were not mentioned.

However, If this was lumped into your statement of "...and other factors". I would say the seat position/incline and training are very important factors that would effect g tolerance and should not be lumped into a  yadda yadda yadda statement.

 

So were I agree that there is an advantage for wearing a G-suit, there should also be an advantage for sitting at a greater incline to sustain g-forces (...let's not bring a pilots stature/build into the equation). To what degree, I will gladly leave that up to you guys that are a lot smarter than I am. :thank_you:

Edited by JG7_X-Man
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personally, I like that the current model takes more than current G load into accound (rate of onset, rest, etc.) its great. I think it can stay as is... or the tolerance could be boosted a little... but honestly I find it satisfactory as long as it is uniform for all players. I dont think we should model it after Blue Angels pilots... but a small boost wouldn't hurt. Same time, im fine with the current average pilot approach, but above average could work too. The G model one of the things in this game that I feel was tackled excellently and with higher detail than most sims. Honestly, good job guys.

seat position could be added... but... were not sitting in the plane.... i mean 109 pilots hit their heads against the glass more.... Germany's fuel was much lower quality... weapons jammed.. especially larger caliber cannon...we dont simulate that... and thats ok. =p

i vote keep it uniform and dont take the planes pilot position into account.


oh another thought.. the G meter that was added is great, since we can't feel G... maaaaybe like a subtle Vignette grey that matches the G meter to make visual input a little more easily noticed than glancing down at the G clock. But the counter issue to that is, since spotting at varying distances is already an issue, messing with early grey out could make that worse.... unless it was just the border ?  some kind of visual queue could make G judgement easier before the quick grey/blackout we currently have... idk.. food for thought

 

Edited by JeffreyLeftovers

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3 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

I'm sorry Luke, but years of going up against the AI, and seeing them perform maneuvers that would put me in total black out forces me to call BS on this.

Going up against AI for years is funny, as it is not that long, that the system was changed to the way it works now.

But to your issue. I am not quite with you. Of course if I attack an AI fighter, coming in with higher speed, than he is flying, I will not be able to follow his turn, as my Gs are higher because of the higher speed. But my experience is, when I get attacked by an incoming AI fighter, he will not be able to follow my turn, either, as he is too fast.

Second thing is, AI only flies hard turns, when fighting with the player. When they 'fight' with each other, they fly almost straight, without any high Gs. So when I fight with an AI after I was in a fight, even if it was just a short evasive maneuver, with another one, my virtual pilot will already be weakened by his first fight, while the AI, even if he was in a fight before, is still fresh, as he didn't have to pull high Gs.

It can be quite frustrating at times, but you have to find a workaround and use the AI flying to your advantage.

 

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22 hours ago, Han said:

So the question is not about "how much it should be increased".

Question is: should it be increased or not.

 

Only increase redout. Other factors are good.

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4 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

 

I'm sorry Luke, but years of going up against the AI, and seeing them perform maneuvers that would put me in total black out forces me to call BS on this.

 

Well, I'm sorry to tell you this, but you are greatly mistaken.

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That is just not the experience that I and my friends have had Luke.

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7 hours ago, Audgisil said:

Why not have a selectable option such as "pilot fitness"? It would be similar to when you choose novice or ace for the AI in a quick battle. 

 

To me, this is the answer with some additional refinements already mentioned by others above regarding negative Gs and gradual onset. 

 

For SP, we could decide on our own when during a campaign we believe our pilot should progress to ace level "fitness," by simply checking the box (really no need for any complicated progression formula).  It would be great to also see Ace level AI get the same enhanced G Tolerance.

 

In MP, server admins can decide if their players are regular or ace fitness.

 

Thank you for the Poll!

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5 hours ago, Soilworker said:

@=VARP=Ribbon You keep going on about how you want experienced pilot G tolerance and not "newbie" but that's exactly what we have, go back and read the OP from Han, he mentiones repeatedly that we have an intermediate pilot's G tolerance.

For example: "And values of all these factors are adjusted for intermediate fighter pilots." 

As i said i dont know what is modeled now, medium to ace is fine by me so turn fighters can get most out of it's planes while keeping realism part in it!

 

S!

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The funny thing about all this G-whining is that the devs used real world research to set these parameters, and people are forgetting the incredible shape that most of the pilots who were the subjects of that research tend to be in.

 

We are already more robust in-game than most human beings you will run into; but some seem to think having your bodyweight spike from 200lbs to 1000lbs in just a few moments is a walk in the park.

 

Then just the idea that an 'ace' somehow has higher G-resistance.  Honestly the 'ace' probably doesn't subject himself to nearly as many G's on a regular basis.

Edited by US63_SpadLivesMatter
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I feel the G model is in a pretty good state atm, the only part I don't like is the delay when releasing pressure on the stick. Several times i've realized  I am about to black out released the  pressure but still gone further into the black and got knocked out.

 

 

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I like it just the way it is,

Just a couple of small alterations, rapid stick movement from negative to positive should bring on the 'giddy' effect a lot quicker...

And from experience, for me when exiting near black out (or prolonged blackout) the giddy effect should apply also for 30 seconds or so.

This would prevent some of the weird evasive maneuvers you see, and also prevent people from 'riding' the blackout for more than a couple of seconds.

 

NB i would be interested (from real pilots) if it was possible to 'ride' the blackout for a long period of time without any ill effects..

       or would you just not risk it incase you blacked out completely...

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17 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

We should not have the same g tolerance as aerobatic pilots.  They train constantly to deal with the g forces that they encounter.  Fighter pilots were too busy flying missions for that sort of training.

 

I will politely have to disagree. I think it's high illogical to think a combat pilot will have less training with Anti-G Straining Maneuvers (AGSM) than a stunt/aerobatics pilot.

EVERY stunt performed at an airshow was based from a military combat maneuver to do one of two things: Put the pilot in a more favorable position to fire their main weapon than their opponent or to escape a bad position.

 

I see a someone doing a perfect barrel roll at a show and the whole time I am thinking, "How many people here clapping know the idea of this maneuver is to bled energy and force a would be attacker to overshoot or vice versa (i.e. bleed energy so you don't overshoot)".

 

That said, I see your though process that stunt/aerobatics pilots might be in the air more perfecting their skill. They are just different skill sets; one is training for an exam (impress judges or a crowd) and the other is training to stay alive. Then again ~200 hours per year that your average US Fighter pilot has seems like a lot of training to me.

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I've flown fast movers and used a g-suit ("fast pants") and find the g-effect and the g-suits (technically, "anti-g suits") to be realistic.  I've done hard acrobatics with and without g-suits and my only beef with the BoX effect is that in real life with positive g you gray out, get tunnel vision, then lose vision, then go unconscious.  It's all due to lowered blood pressure in the eyeball (intraocular pressure).  

 

There should be a phase between gray out and loss of vision (black out, not unconsciousness) where you get tunnel vision as if you're looking at the world through a cardboard toilet paper roll.  It's a very distinctive effect.  There is also a phase where vision is lost yet you're conscious (this doesn't seem to be in BoX?) and you should be able to manipulate the aircraft without being able to see.

 

Also, especially with 9AF P-47 pilots operating during the winter in France and Belgium, these guys were cold and tired and lacked sleep.  Thus, they, like overworked pilots of their opponents and Allies, were not at peak physical condition, physically and mentally.  Note pilot narratives of unheated tents, waking with your canteen frozen solid, and when they get leave they remark how exhausted and in need of rest they are. This reduces resistance to g effects.

Edited by TP_Sparky
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2 minutes ago, TP_Sparky said:

...  There is also a phase where vision is lost yet you're conscious (this doesn't seem to be in BoX?) and you should be able to manipulate the aircraft without being able to see.

 

Il-2 FB use to have this! Thanks for your input!

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2 hours ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

That is just not the experience that I and my friends have had Luke.

 

Well, I'm sorry, but it's been clearly stated that is now the case, ever since the new G-resistance modeling was implemented. And, it's easy enough to see by setting up a quick mission that the AI can and does black out quite often when it pulls too hard of a turn.

Edited by LukeFF
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49 минут назад, JG7_X-Man сказал:

 

Il-2 FB use to have this! Thanks for your input!

This. Really important.

 

And I would say there is a need for small blackout G tune-up (0.5 or 1 G over the present limit). That would be accurate. 

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2 hours ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

The funny thing about all this G-whining is that the devs used real world research to set these parameters, and people are forgetting the incredible shape that most of the pilots who were the subjects of that research tend to be in.


First "G Whiners" is a "we versus them" move which makes no sense. Remember that we all play and like the same product and have all (slightly) different opinions.
I will play the game regardless, but think i can be improved.

So back to the topic, the devs have to my knowledge and research used mostly one russian scientific paper. This paper is not entirely wrong, quite on the contrary. Especially if compared to pre G model times this is much better. However more recent research shows, that especailly the G onset (the speed with which the forces set in) play a smaller role than this model suggest.

This is very well explained below in the post of floppy sock. The opinion that the model is very strict isn't formed out of the blue. I am armed with papers.

 

image.png.f87a4b6dde0aa8412ff7c6b3f205c784.png

 

Edited by DerSheriff
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In my opinion the current sustained limit is a wee bit too low, I'm a fit guy in my twenties but the game makes me roleplay as a malnourished 11-year old with asthma or a 50 year old 172 owner with a double bypass. Altough more than the G-treshhold I am more concerned by the ways in which the mechanic is implemented:

 

- I've noticed, that after pulling a tight turn then releasing stick pressure the pilot will suddenly black out very quickly, whilst near or at 1G

- The fact that -G reduces +G is ridonculous

- The fact that quick G onset blacks you out quicker than steady G onset is also stupid - disproved many times

- The "double breathing" when the G onset triggers twice is infuriating (the sound itself is, but when played twice, makes me feel like I'm watching that kind of movie instead of playing a plane game)

- Current limit actually prevents certain SOP maneuvers such as low release, high angle dive bombing in certain aircraft

- With such a low treshhold dogfighting is now dictated by G more so than aircraft performance/pilot skill. 

- Bump the G to +1 overall and see what happens, just as there are plenty cases to be made about pilots killing themselves and crashing because of 4G Gloc, as many could be made about pilots pulling ridiculous amounts of G and recovering easily (bent wings, Max G meters in later P-51s, that Spitfire guy who tested compressibility in a MkIX and pulled so hard the front fell off)

 

Another point could be made about the lack of physical cues to when you're actually about to start blacking out. IRL it's ez to tell that something's going on, but the game leaves you with just a vignette and some grunting, neither of which happens to be very telling of what's going on right now, especially when the vignette suddenly closes on you like it's the end of Looney Toones. Maybe this in itself is a good enough reason to loosen it up a bit, or change the way in which the effects are displayed (before you start going at me with the G-meter, miss me with that, no HUD for life and honestly introduction of the G-meter is telling if anything)

Edited by ACG_Onebad
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On 8/31/2020 at 6:55 PM, blitze said:

People need to learn to feel the stick instead of jerking it.

 

 

 

Please keep this private info to yourself, there are kids watching.  😉

 

I think the g-force model should be set to typical "2020's couch potato flight sim nerd" level, with the possiblity of improving it individually by mailing before-and-after selfies to the devs showing improvements in physical shape! 

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I thought the implementation of G-resistance was a real game changer for me. Being able to adjust my maneuvering when my pilot's vision started to grey out felt realistic to me. I'm sure there are aspects of it that could be tweaked or added to but if the end result is that everyone suddenly has an imagined increase in the ability to combat virtual G-forces, what was gained in adding the effect to the game in  the first place?

 

I vote for the #1option.

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5 hours ago, TP_Sparky said:

 

There should be a phase between gray out and loss of vision (black out, not unconsciousness) where you get tunnel vision as if you're looking at the world through a cardboard toilet paper roll.  It's a very distinctive effect.  There is also a phase where vision is lost yet you're conscious (this doesn't seem to be in BoX?) and you should be able to manipulate the aircraft without being able to see.

 

 

Yep

The tunnel-vision effect was present in the old IL2 and allowed you to ride that line and still maintain control of the aircraft.

Edit:...and as pointed out by Yogi present in BoX too.

Edited by Gambit21
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5 hours ago, TP_Sparky said:

There should be a phase between gray out and loss of vision (black out, not unconsciousness) where you get tunnel vision as if you're looking at the world through a cardboard toilet paper roll. 

 

30 minutes ago, Gambit21 said:

The tunnel-vision effect was present in the old IL2 and allowed you to ride that line and still maintain control of the aircraft.

It is in the game as well. I just tried it. It is a bit of a flat toilet paper roll, but it is there.

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Option No1.............. Keep as it is now, I think it is excellent!

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Since neither of the options fully fits for me:
I do not a see a problem with the current flat limits, the Issue is more the dynamics of onset and exhaustion of pilots.
Going into a fight with once pulling too rapid will pretty much mess you up for all fights to come, or atleast its very picky when you pushed too hard. 

I've stumbled into blackouts repeadtly with the indicator making the jump from 3-4G  after having fumbled one turn too hard in a flight haunting me till i get a fresh pilot.
And it does only take a split second of too hard onset or being over the limit till your pilot is worn out what seems nearly permanent, not even talking about getting into Gloc to trigger this state.

 

Also have to mention @Floppy_Sock posting the studies in the discussion about onsets 

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6 hours ago, DerSheriff said:


... I am armed with papers.

 

OK this made me laugh out loud!

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For me I think we need more negative Gs. Especially pilots doing positive and negative Gs to try and shake an opponent. There should be heavy consequences for pilots shaking their plane like a madman. Maybe some sort of multiplier on fatigue or blurry vision etc...

Edited by =RS=Maltor

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I consider the current model perfect.
We all are gamers. Most of us are mediocre in stamina and physical condition at best.
Conditions as are place everyone on an even playground - wich is good.


So my vote is: Leave it as it is please!

 

Thanks

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Winger

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