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Entering a dogfight / going down in flames


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Hello fellow pilots,

 

yesterday i had some time to go into online fights ("Wings of Liberty" Server).

Blue side, i took the 190 A5, started, and cruised the frontline up and down, altitude around 2-3000 meters.

15 minutes long nothing happened. Of course i had one eye on the chat. I never saw any enemy aircraft all the time, while watching and zooming around.

Then after a while there was some action ("hot") on a certain spot. Oh, how lucky i am! Suddenly i saw a white pixel (and thats literally all i see from 3000 m even with full zoom) moving at tree level. Aware of the dogfighting weaknesses of my 190, i decided to make a boom&zoom. So, nose down, around 650 km/h speed. While going down, i already lost contact with the "white pixel".

Suddenly - a little bit more to the west - i spot tracers. Ok, i correct my flight path, going down with high speed into direction of the potential opponent.

Again i lose contact. At around 500 m altitude i decide to abort the dive and go back to higher altitudes....so full power, nose up, still >500 km/h, increasing for a moment.

I take a look around - suddenly there are 2 enemies right beside me, climbing, and 2 other enemies behind me, already firing.

I shake my wings, roll left, roll right, still >500 km/h and the enemies beside me and behind me - still climbing!! - come closer and closer...

I get slower and slower while climbing "away" (lol), they come closer and BANG, may i introduce you PaladinX, burning and going down...

 

So this happened to me 4 times in around 2 hours playtime.

 

I see nothing, i go full speed down to have enough energy to climb up immediately (no turning!), then suddenly there are plenty of reds... In every situation, the reds who fight at tree level see me, climb up and shoot my as if i was a 747 in the final approach and not in a 600 km/h fast 190

 

So what am I doing wrong?

 

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I don't think they were tree top lvl if climbing after you on 550/600kph.....

Bad spotting is biggest problem here, also redirecting from one target to another usually comes at energy/speed cost and finally once engaged and defensive biggest mistake in 190 is climbing as it is it's weakest attribute.

Once engaged and defensive you fly straight to use speed adcantage or go in a steep or full dive depending on alt (full nose down, if yaks or most other russian planes behind you going over 750kph will ripp off their ailerons).

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This game is really good in teaching us how limited our focus is.

I am now recording most flights, and using Storebror's utility to automatically restart the recording. It is very instructional to watch a recording after situations as you are describing. In most cases you will find that you actually could very well have seen the guys shooting you down later - but you were simply not really watching. You probably thought you were watching - but our brain is very limited in processing capacity and playing dirty tricks to hide that. While we normally believe to be seeing everything within our field of view, we actually only see what is within a very narrow focus of attention. The rest around is pure fantasy, the brain is constructing it. And if you don't want an enemy plane there there won't be any, until it becomes undeniable :)

All this also fits well with pilot stories from WWII, there is a lot of planes apparently disappearing, or appearing out of the empty sky all of a sudden.

 

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Poor SA for new players resolting from poor visibility in this flying game. You should record your flights and look at them later, youll probably be able to see more airplanes in area. If your fast and airplane cathced you then he probably didnt come from below it was some higher one who tracked you and you didnt noticed it as game has bad visability even when contacts are close to mid distances, your easeyer to spot enemy far then close to you. Also players still left to play in MP now probably found ways or adapted to poor visability this flying game has so your at even more bigger disadvantage as new player online now then before.

 

Secound is your selection of area where you fight, if your over enemy targets or enemy transit routs there is more chance of more enemy airplanes there then frendlys, or if there is more enemy players on server, for start cover your objectives, later you can try some route intercepts or hunt over your objectives. 

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I agree with above, I have bad situational awareness due to not really wholehearted into fighter businesss. But the times I flown any FW 190 I have not been shot down. I go in a shallow dive to target full speed. Then drop bombs and gett the hell out of there without climb nor turns. I wont start navigating until I am sure I know I am alone. 
I would stay up there and when seeing a target look again and see if there is buddies. A normal tactic is one of them shows  themselves low and a wolfpack cover him. 
If you decide to attack , go for the one, if you loose him , abort look around climb if possible but rather get away with speed. 
Then start over again. This is why I hate fighters, being good at it is long boring searching fir something

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Thank you for your feedbacks.

 

What i have learned so far:

- 190 is a bad climber? So i misunderstood the Boom&Zoom (Dive, Shoot, Climb). But makes sense because i lost speed so fast, that the reds could come close is the only reasonable explanation. I will change that, not climb but go straight or in a shallow dive away with highest possible speed. Never turn! Never!

 

- I am flying flightsims since years, and already many years with TrackIR, but here, unless in other sims, its unbelievable hard to spot something. Even in DCS i find it easier to find a camouflaged tank in the wood from my A-10 in x thousand feets...really difficult here in IL2.

 

- What confuses me the most is how fast the reds (and they WERE each time on tree level because they hunted 110s hunting trains...) came up and close to my back...meanwhile i questioned myself if my gear was not in or what else happened...the 190 slows down to 300 or less really fast when climbing...thats what i realize now.

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All previos advise is good.

 

My 2 cents.

Try recording ingame track to watch later. If posible also use tacview.

 About climb speed of 190s vs other planes... The 190 it's not a good climber, if you make a dive and get a Lot of speed, you can make a shallow climb, slowly climbing while being faster than the enemy. But to make a boom and zoom while on a 190 you need to atack a plane thats already manouvering and arround 300-350 km/h.

Even so, a fast player can snap shoots you even if you are faster. You can't outrun bullets.

If you are climbing at 300km/h on a 190 most planes Will be able to keep up with you, and even if they can't, the Will still be able to shoot at you.

 

Also, by the way you described the situation, you pushed your luck 2 times too many. Dived afther loosing a contact, wich is ok if you are trying to re gain it. But after you failed to do so, you should have been on the defensive.

And when you saw tracers, you didn't realized, that someone else would also see them and go for the same spot.

 

Best/most fun way to learn and play MP is with a friend/wingman.

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4 hours ago, PaladinX said:

Thank you for your feedbacks.

 

What i have learned so far:

- 190 is a bad climber? So i misunderstood the Boom&Zoom (Dive, Shoot, Climb). But makes sense because i lost speed so fast, that the reds could come close is the only reasonable explanation. I will change that, not climb but go straight or in a shallow dive away with highest possible speed. Never turn! Never!

 

- I am flying flightsims since years, and already many years with TrackIR, but here, unless in other sims, its unbelievable hard to spot something. Even in DCS i find it easier to find a camouflaged tank in the wood from my A-10 in x thousand feets...really difficult here in IL2.

 

- What confuses me the most is how fast the reds (and they WERE each time on tree level because they hunted 110s hunting trains...) came up and close to my back...meanwhile i questioned myself if my gear was not in or what else happened...the 190 slows down to 300 or less really fast when climbing...thats what i realize now.

 

If you cannot outrun your opponent, you can try a scissors defense (part of this series) which benefits from the 190's fast roll rate. There is more help available under Air Combat Guides in the IL-2 Resources post.

Edited by JimTM
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1 hour ago, PaladinX said:

I tried a scissor but that costs a lot of speed and energy...im not doing it good.

...

 

If they are catching up to you, you have lost the energy game already so you must out-maneuver them (using your roll advantage) and make them bleed their energy. Pay close attention to the points in Requiem's video and practice, practice, practice.

Edited by JimTM
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Hi @PaladinX

You have the same problem of most of the other players, that is SA.

And this problem is even bigger when you want/must fly higher than your enemies cause it's easier to spot someone that is higher than you that not viceversa.

So, probably happened that they saw you diving, follow you and when you start to climb they were close enough to shot you down.

Consider that russian airplanes are more stable, so they don't need to be so close to you to hit you.

 

About Fw-190:

I think now it's the best axis airplane for a simple reason: you don't need to fly so high.

With Bf-109 you must do Boom&Zoom, so the result is 93% a boring mission cause you see nothing.

Instead, I had some funny mission with Fockewulf flying at no more than 2k.

You need to have:

  - Low clouds (2000/2500m)

  - A wingman (a good one)

  - A sign with the words "don't turn!"

In 45 minutes we shot down 5 enemies, had a lot of fun and come back with neither a hole.

The wingman is the key: he need to know exactly what to do, and it requires a little bit of training.

 

As fighter I really prefer 109, but I almost fly just 190 for avoid "empty sky" missions.

 

Edited by ITAF_Airone1989
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Thanks, more good feedbacks.

I will try next time in my FW 190 - stay low and fast, never turn, prefer to "run away and come back".

The firepower is impressive but you need to have something in your crosshair first! :)

 

 

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I am still 

On 8/17/2020 at 4:09 AM, PaladinX said:

...I shake my wings, roll left, roll right, still >500 km/h and the enemies beside me and behind me - still climbing!!

@PaladinX The Fw 190A bleeds energy pretty fast so I have a hard time believing your were sustaining 500 Km'h in a climb (especially after a couple of rolls).:nea:

This is what SA is all about! Knowing your aircraft's energy state in addition to knowing were you are on the map and what is going on around you.

 

This post will not help you with the above, but it will help you to find the enemy

 

 

 

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On 8/17/2020 at 11:25 AM, PaladinX said:

I tried a scissor but that costs a lot of speed and energy...im not doing it good.

 

How can i track data and transfer it to Tacview? (i have Tacview but never used)

 

505876441_HowtoTacView.thumb.jpg.6dda2295343e6bdd25fa0bf414fd1840.jpg

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