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Wishlist for IL2 Cliffs Of Dover Blitz / Desert Wings Tobruk


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Ah... Italian planes... those you say, Falco, would be good in our sim, for sure, but I'm tempted to add to your list the Piaggio P.108 (not enough copies were manufactured for TFS accepts modelling this beauty) and the Macchi C.205 (better engine, better armament... and even more beautiful than the C.202, simply compare the tail area proportions).

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Agree. They stated that they're hoping to build the MC.200, and SM.79 if they do another module. They also stated that building the 200 and 205 would be easier than building the Reggianes (at this point)

In regards to bombers, I feel that they would build the Ju-52 over the CANT.Z 1007 due to less stations, and would build the Wellington Mk.III and Ju-88A-4/C-6 as those are easier to build than an entirely new bomber type.

 

A lot of these Italian planes would be great to have, but there are just other aircraft that people would find more interesting such as the Swordfish, Fw-190, Hs-129, etc.

 

Possibly at some point they could add these [Italian] planes if they have the time/resources.

 

Cheers.

 

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Thank you Enceladus.

 

ON THE JU 52: this is a fact, Cliffs of Dover is undoubtedly a combat flight sim set in the Battle of Britain. And there's another undeniable fact: the Junkers Ju 52 was the main beast of burden in the Lufwaffe before, during and after the Battle of Britain. As TFS is, apparently, dealing with conflicts and theatres of operations from the Battle of Britain onwards... as a conclusion the Ju 52 should be a priority for them. When we'll have our Ju 52, our simulated battles in the Channel & Tobruk maps will have a completely different taste.

 

ON THE C.205: it shouldn't be difficult to bring the necessary modifications to our existing C.202 so that a C.205 sees the light of day in the Dover series.

 

ON THE FW 190: well... that baby's on its way... isn't it?

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The Ju-52 fleet was not actually involved in combat situations where the aircraft regularly encountered enemy fighters with the exception of four occasions:

 

-  The invasion of the Netherlands.  (we won't be doing this scenario in near future)

 

-   The attempted Air-Supply of Stalingrad.  (this is already covered in the GREAT BATTLES series.

 

-  The Campaign for Tunisia where the aircraft was used first fly in Ground troops to hold up the Allied advance, and later to fly in supply or evacuate troops just before the surrender.  (will not be the subject of TF 6.0)

 

-  The air supply of the Kurland pocket and later evacuation of ground troops when the pocket collapsed.  (Eastern Front and GREAT BATTLES territory)

 

For reasons which are self-explanatory from above, as well as the fact very few people would be interested in flying this aircraft, (we only do flyable types) we are unlikely to model the Ju-52 in the near future.

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1 minute ago, Enceladus said:

So I guess the opening of the 1969 movie (at 30 seconds) is pretty much fictional then? https://youtu.be/cNVVoH9-QH0

 

 

 

Buzzsaw said "not actually involved in combat situations". So no, not fictional at all: this scene you mentioned simply shows the use of old Aunt Ju as a personal transport, for transporting one high-ranked officer, that's all.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

 

 

Buzzsaw said "not actually involved in combat situations". So no, not fictional at all: this scene you mentioned simply shows the use of old Aunt Ju as a personal transport, for transporting one high-ranked officer, that's all.

 

 

Yes, you are correct. Just as you replied I realized that it was there to deliver somebody, and if there was any enemy threat they would have diverted to another place or scrubbed the mission prior to takeoff.

 

Rule of thumb: think/read/watch twice, post once.

 

P.S. I was playing the Ice Ring Campaign in IL-2 GBs, and there was no fighter escort for the Ju-52s during approach and landing, so I used my IL-2 as an interceptor and took down at least 5 Ju-52s in one mission.

 

They lost 269 Ju-52s during the Aerial Bridge, so it was pretty much a suicide mission for those pilots.

Edited by Enceladus
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16 hours ago, 343KKT_Kintaro said:

Ah... Italian planes... those you say, Falco, would be good in our sim, for sure, but I'm tempted to add to your list the Piaggio P.108 (not enough copies were manufactured for TFS accepts modelling this beauty) and the Macchi C.205 (better engine, better armament... and even more beautiful than the C.202, simply compare the tail area proportions).

205 would be a great and comparatively easy addition, eventually we'd have a good Italian fighter with theets...

 

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I understand the charm of the Macchi 205. Charm due to the fact that finally the plane had good armament.
But I highlight the fact that it practically never flew in Africa, except for an action in Tunisia (from the base of Pantelleria, 7-4-1943). It would therefore be quite out of place in the African theater.
It was instead used for the defense of Italy and also after the armistice.
Only about 250 were produced. Wing cannons are used since Serie III, before they had MGs only. Some C.202, about 20, were converted to C.205.

 

I think there are more important aircraft to be developed, such as the C.200 and the SM79, which are missing in the African scenario. 

 

It is useless to have too many illusions, the only modern Italian fighter produced and used in abundance was the C.202.

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In some ways, J-Hat is right... at least three aircraft see how progressively (and chronologically from 1940 onwards) their variants and subvariants are being modelled as flyables by TFS: the Spit, the Hurri, and the 109... so, we can therefore think that in the future, if things go the way they've been going till now... all Bf 109 variants will be modeled in this game. Nope?

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I would personally like to see a Malta or Sicily scenario (or both). Wouldn't that mean we would need p-47s, p-51a, and fw-190s (for Sicily), in addition to the Italian planes that I know nothing about. A cool thing about either is I assume we would get carrier ops? Again, I do not know a ton about either scenario, so please enlighten me.

Edited by =AW=drewm3i-VR
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11 hours ago, 5th_Hellrider said:

I understand the charm of the Macchi 205. Charm due to the fact that finally the plane had good armament.
But I highlight the fact that it practically never flew in Africa, except for an action in Tunisia (from the base of Pantelleria, 7-4-1943). It would therefore be quite out of place in the African theater.
It was instead used for the defense of Italy and also after the armistice.
Only about 250 were produced. Wing cannons are used since Serie III, before they had MGs only. Some C.202, about 20, were converted to C.205.

 

I think there are more important aircraft to be developed, such as the C.200 and the SM79, which are missing in the African scenario. 

 

It is useless to have too many illusions, the only modern Italian fighter produced and used in abundance was the C.202.

There were several 1943 standard fighters produced and flown by the Regia Aeronautica.  These were known as the 'Series 5'.

 

The C.205 was one, but also there was the Reggiane 2005 and Fiat G.55.

 

Less than 50 R.2005 were produced so this is unlikely to be created, but there were 274 G.55's built during the war in addition to the 262 Macchi C.205's.

 

So in total there were approx. 600 Series 5 types... which makes it worthwhile to create at least one of them.

 

Of these, the C.205 would be the easiest to build for TF since we already have the C.202... although personally I have a soft spot for the G.55, one of the best designs of the war... and superior to the 109's of its era.

 

The problem with all these aircraft was the fact they were all very expensive to build on an production basis... the lack of resources of the Italian economy and the mistake in not focusing on one design.

 

To end my comment... if we go into 1943 in the Med, you'll see either the C.205 or G.55.

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9 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

I'd love to see the Fairey Swordfish .They were quite active & quite successful flying off Malta.🧐

image-asset.jpeg

If we do a Malta map there will be a Swordfish... they flew both off the Island and also off Carriers.

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Personally I'd like to see the Battle of France fleshed out. I know it's very unlikely because people gravitate towards the mid-late war stuff and that's where the money is.

But a man can dream...

 

We already have the German side pretty much covered. The only thing missing would be a flyable Do17.

On the allied side there's a long list of aircraft that could be introduced:

 

Bloch MB.152C1

Morane-Saulnier M.S.406C1

Curtiss Hawk75A-2 or A-3

Lioré et Olivier LeO451

Potez 631 or Breguet Bre693

Blenheim Mk.I

Fairey Battle

 

Other than that I'm just hoping for TrueSky, 4K textures, VR, etc. to still happen this year.

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I'm with Karaya, a Battle of France scenario in a good combat flight sim like "Cliffs"... that would be lovely. We only would be needing to model the aircraft in his list so that added to our already existing German planes the planeset in the module is fairly representative of the Battle of France.

 

Let's keep dreaming of future scenarios:

 

a) The Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)

 

b) The Sino-Japanese War all along the decade previous to Pearl Harbour (1931-1941)

 

c) The invasion of Poland (September 1940)

 

 

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8 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

If we do a Malta map there will be a Swordfish... they flew both off the Island and also off Carriers.

Delighted.put me on the pre-purchase option! Seriously there is an excellent (. If somewhat dry,) book on operations by Swordfish & their “new& improved” Albacore t out of Malta. The crews bravery & successes in these clearly obsolete aircraft flying at night against convoys sailing out of Italy are just amazing!

D4855448-BD66-4196-A501-6653A14DCCDD.jpeg

Edited by Blitzen
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On 3/5/2021 at 7:39 AM, Blitzen said:

Delighted.put me on the pre-purchase option! Seriously there is an excellent (. If somewhat dry,) book on operations by Swordfish & their “new& improved” Albacore t out of Malta. The crews bravery & successes in these clearly obsolete aircraft flying at night against convoys sailing out of Italy are just amazing!

D4855448-BD66-4196-A501-6653A14DCCDD.jpeg

Although there is a general opinion among the public the Swordfish was an obsolete aircraft, that is not really the case.

 

If you only consider survivability versus attacking fighters, then yes, the Swordfish was not up to the standards of later torpedo bombers like the Avenger.  One of the few occasions when it came up against enemy land based single engined fighters, during the Channel Dash, they were knocked out of the air.

 

But most Torpedo types of 1939-42 didn't stand a chance against enemy fighters... they all required escort.

 

The fact the Swordfish were helpless against FW-190's obscures the reality the Swordfish was not intended to make torpedo strikes in the daytime against fighter opposition.

 

In almost all circumstances the Swordfish operated at night when there could be opposition.

 

Most of the exploits for which it was known for were executed at night or at dusk... Taranto, the crippling of the Bismarck, strikes on Italian Battleships, on convoys, etc.

 

And for attacks executed at night, the Swordfish was superbly designed.

 

It was the first British aircraft to be equipped with air to surface radar.... used in locating the Bismarck and those Italian convoys.  And the same radar allowed it to locate its home carrier on the return flight even in conditions of near complete darkness.

 

The crews of the Swordfish were superbly trained in the techniques of making their attacks.

 

Typically one Swordfish was equipped with flares and would circle above the target, dropping flares which would illuminate it for the Swordfish with torpedoes... while simultaneously blinding the AAA gunners on the ship being attacked.  Then the rest of the Swordfish would attack out of the darkness... which hid them till the last moment, using 'Hammer and Anvil' tactics, that being one attack would be made from the port or starboard and one attack would be made from the bow.  This meant if the target ship turned to avoid one attack, it would be exposed to the other.

 

The other major advantage the Swordfish had was its very low stall speed allowed it to take off and land in conditions which other carrier based aircraft would never attempt.  Other carrier types could not operate at night, and they could not land in heavy sea conditions... which the Swordfish were capable of.

 

That was the case in the attack on the Bismarck... winds were at 50 knots and sea conditions high.  Yet these aircraft took off and made their strike.

 

The Swordfish was designed primarily as a strike aircraft operating in the stormy North Atlantic versus the Kriegsmarine fleet... which had no carriers.  For that role, it was an excellent design.

 

Here's an account of the attack on the Bismarck:

 

http://www.kbismarck.com/article2.html

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Point taken & in basic agreement...All things cosidered it was a VERY successful( if arguably obsolete ) aircraft which soldiered on right up until the end.You didn't mention that it even played a role in the Battle of the Atlantic flying off of "Jeep carriers for convoy protectio .An excellent memoir you might like to read To War in a Stringbag by the excellent British author Charles Lamb.

BTW: Ido like the old girl...enough to have done a painting last year of her in action:

 

Swordfish Launch.jpg

51v3FGdn0lL._SX312_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

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Oh dear... I simply recognise that one you just posted right now... because I already saw it on a forum, although I can't remember what forum exactly. Maybe the present forums, at the time of the Desert Wings release. Also, thank you for the link, i'll spend some time exploring this, that's for sure.

 

In any case, your art's great. All my admiration goes to you.

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14 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

Most of the exploits for which it was known for were executed at night or at dusk... Taranto, the crippling of the Bismarck

Assuming that there will be another module after DW-T, I really hope that the module in which the Swordfish is included also includes the Bismarck, and perhaps the King George V and Nelson BB. I've always been fascinated with the story of the Bismarck since I was 8 years old when I watched Dogfights: Hunt for the Bismarck. I even knew (and still know today) the lyrics of that Johnny Horton song by heart.

In IL-2 1946 I tried doing the final battle of the Bismarck, but because there wasn't the Nelson class, I gave up on it. To me, they shouldn't have included the Bismarck if the Nelson class wasn't there.

 

An interesting fact mentioned in a 1996 documentary, Sink the Bismarck stated that during sea trials, the Bismarck could not maneuver with her/his engines if the rudder failed. However, nothing was done about this as the likelihood of losing steering was very slim... until May 26th 1941.

 

:salute:

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