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Discussion of Planned Improvements to DESERT WINGS - TOBRUK Game Engine


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58 minutes ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Seems like funding further development is left to those folks in groups 2 and 3. If Steam Stats show that DW-T is a resounding success then that "success" can fund VR development. Otherwise it would seem that the only viable way forward is to produce more non-VR DLC. Other flight sims have for years now offered a polished VR environment that can respond relatively quickly as new HMD's arrive on market. How would the small development team be able to adapt to the added burdens VR would impose? The Blitz true believer base will definitely pay for more non-VR DLC. OTOH folks who insist on VR can have their needs largely met via other flight sim' maps and plane sets.

Don’t get me wrong I’d LOVE CloD DWT to have VR right away, but I do remember even BoS/GB took quite a while to implement VR.It wasn’t a cinch.

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1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

Don’t get me wrong I’d LOVE CloD DWT to have VR right away, but I do remember even BoS/GB took quite a while to implement VR.It wasn’t a cinch.

I agree that modification of the survey would help make it more meaningful. There are probably additional user classes not currently included. In terms of BoS/GB VR implementation I think you need to look further back to the RoF engine. Its' UI provided the platform that makes BoS' VR implementation fluid. For Blitz, the base may think that time (potentially) spent on VR development is time squandered. They will almost certainly request and receive additional non-VR DLC and they are the folks who are willing to fund future additions.

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Yeah. VR was not added until halfway through the development of Kuban (the 3rd installment).

 

As well, TFS wanted to add the TrueSky weather engine upon release of DW-T, but that addition fell behind, and they had to decide whether to release DW and add the new weather engine later, or delay the release of DW so that the new weather engine could be included.

 

Also, there are additions to IL-2 GBs in the past that Jason wanted to add and believed that they would be in the game relatively soon, but things happened and they got pushed back to a later date.

But... They still were added to the game, just at a later date than originally anticipated.

 

Edit: @Slegawsky_VR that is why VR is the first priority for TFS after the TrueSky weather engine is added.

 

TFS is beyond well aware of the need for VR in today's flight sims.

Edited by Enceladus
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1 hour ago, Enceladus said:

Yeah. VR was not added until halfway through the development of Kuban (the 3rd installment).

 

As well, TFS wanted to add the TrueSky weather engine upon release of DW-T, but that addition fell behind, and they had to decide whether to release DW and add the new weather engine later, or delay the release of DW so that the new weather engine could be included.

 

Also, there are additions to IL-2 GBs in the past that Jason wanted to add and believed that they would be in the game relatively soon, but things happened and they got pushed back to a later date.

But... They still were added to the game, just at a later date than originally anticipated.

 

Edit: @Slegawsky_VR that is why VR is the first priority for TFS after the TrueSky weather engine is added.

 

TFS is beyond well aware of the need for VR in today's flight sims.

This quote is from August 14 Developer' post:

 

"Assuming the game is reasonably successful with its sales, we will go ahead with these developments."

 

VR is the very last item addressed in that post. I rely on that post as definitive until and unless updated.

 

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3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

This quote is from August 14 Developer' post:

 

"Assuming the game is reasonably successful with its sales, we will go ahead with these developments."

 

VR is the very last item addressed in that post. I rely on that post as definitive until and unless updated.

 

That is because it had been a week since Desert Wings-Tobruk was released, and at that time, they needed to see how well the sales were before committing themselves to adding VR. As they have always stated: "whether or not we go further is how well the sales do". 

 

Unlike in IL-2 GBs, there is no EA; and Pre-orders happened only 1 week prior to the release, so unless every single flight simmer bought DW-T in that time period, there is no way that one can conclusively determine whether or not they will go ahead for a sequel or prequel after the product has been out for only a week.

 

Back in 2016, if the sales of IL-2 BoX/GBs were poor, then there would probably be no point in the devs spending all the time and resources for several months to write the code and implement VR into the game if only a small handful of the combat flight sim community liked the game.

Edited by Enceladus
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42 minutes ago, Enceladus said:

That is because it had been a week since Desert Wings-Tobruk was released, and at that time, they needed to see how well the sales were before committing themselves to adding VR. As they have always stated: "whether or not we go further is how well the sales do". 

 

Unlike in IL-2 GBs, there is no EA; and Pre-orders happened only 1 week prior to the release, so unless every single flight simmer bought DW-T in that time period, there is no way that one can conclusively determine whether or not they will go ahead for a sequel or prequel after the product has been out for only a week.

 

Back in 2016, if the sales of IL-2 BoX/GBs were poor, then there would probably be no point in the devs spending all the time and resources for several months to write the code and implement VR into the game if only a small handful of the combat flight sim community liked the game.

The Developer’ post is operative until amended. Personal opinions ought to be clearly presented as such.

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From Buzzsaw:

August 15th 2020:

 

Addition of the TrueSKY weather engine, with new cloud system, as well as weather effects, and water effects.

We had a working beta of this new weather system tested in December 2019, but it needs improvement and the addition of additional features and was not ready for release.

 The expectation is we should have this new weather system in place in Fall/early Winter of 2020.

 Addition of a Virtual Reality viewing system.

 This is a larger project, and will take a great deal of work and development.  At earliest, it will be added in early 2021... and it is more than likely it will be some time into the new year."


69th_Spiritus - October 7th 2020:

"VR is a long ways off. We are focusing on finishing tessellation, seeing if we can give the option of 4k textures for aircraft, and implementing the new clouds/weather system.

Then we can start messing around with VR."

 

October 8th 2020:
 9./JG52_J-HAT

"Is the original timeframe for VR still current, i.e. early 2021?"

 

ATAG_Pattle:

"VR timeframe is likely to be pushed back at this time."

November 13th 2020:

 

Buzzsaw:

"VR is a priority for the development of the game.

It has not been pushed back... all development is proceeding on the plan as listed in the following post:


https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/64430-planned-future-improvements-to-desert-wings-tobruk/

At this point VR is between six and nine months away assuming the work goes as planned."


December 11th 2020:

Mysticpuma:

"Over a year since a single image of TruSky was shared. Any news?"

Buzzsaw:

"We are currently in an Alpha... when we have material we can share Pattle will post it in an update."

 

 

To summarise the way I read that. TrueSky was in Beta a year ago but is now back in Alpha. VR is not coming until TrueSky is implemented. It's a year since TrueSky was in Beta and now back in Alpha, so it's most likely another 6-months before we get the new weather and then development begins on VR, which at that rate will be another year-and-a-half after, so around the middle of 2022?

 

However with very little communication about what is going on with the TFS roadmap, very little being shared of the work in progress, all we can do is speculate, so that's all this is.

Cheers, MP

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"Fall/early Winter of 2020"

I would say that we are not in winter already...
So, why should they give us other info about this? They could be on time.
If they will be late we will see somenthing in next days, but I don't see the point to write 23053 messages saying "we will be ready in 3 months, no 2 days, no 4 weeks, no 1 year."
So, let them work.

Plus: the pandemia delayed even some BoX project, that it's a "pro" team.
Not such a big surprise (and neither a problem) if we will have to wait a little bit more. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Slegawsky_VR said:

Lets hope one of the devs gets Reverb for Christmas this year maybe they just never flown in VR. No going back to monitor after that 😄

So far 18 people participated in the poll and only 2 were against VR work.

 

I say old chap, what poll is this and were is it?

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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Just now, Slegawsky_VR said:

 

 

Many thanks.  Shame I can't vote, because I have CloD/Blitz and have also purchased Tobruk but don't fly them as I only fly in VR.  I purchased Tobruk to support TF in the hope that they will deliver VR in the not too distant future; next year I hope.  Hope to fly CloD/Blitz again one day and Tobruk, but only if TF deliver VR.

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

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Couldn’t vote either. Have Tobruk and am waiting for my Reverb G2. Would love to fly CloD in VR. Don‘t see myself stop enjoying it until VR gets implemented though. 

But I think TF knows that VR in the near future will be as necessary as TIR support is right now and has been for the last ten years at least. Shouldn‘t even be questioned „if“ it‘s necessary. It just is. That is also why it is in their plans. 

 

And tbh it is in TFS‘s own hands to make the sim a great success. We are the player base. If we decide there is something better to play than CloD, then it‘s TFs duty to make CloD interesting for us again and keep us interested.


Solely their decisions (with the help of 1C regarding pricing) and capacity will be responsible for the sim being a success or not.
Even if there is resistance here and their from part of the combat flight sim community to be overcome. Sure, players themselves can help with this aspect too but our capabilities just go so far. 
 

If VR comes for example too late and most of the players have moved on, then that‘s what it is. 
 

For me Tobruk has made me come back to CloD.  It has worked so far. 

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1 hour ago, Slegawsky_VR said:

 

 

I was able to take part in the poll, however, there seems to be no way to comment, why would I want to you might ask?

 

Well, I went with the second, however, I am not against VR but do think there are more important things still to be addressed as far as the existing modules are concerned so maybe a additional question could ask just that.

 

I do not use V.R., does not mean I am against it though as I have my own reasons for not using it and certainly would not want to deny its implementation for those that do so the poll questions need to allow for that but do not at the moment.

 

Take care and be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

Edited by Missionbug
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The poll seems meaningless. Few respondents are likely to admit to hostility toward VR. Also, as has already been pointed out, there are likely many who have VR but still fly Blitz. Total response numbers are few. trueSKY is unlikely to change the popularity of Blitz but seems likely to consume considerable development resources for some time to come. What IS relevant to VR implementation is the Blitz UI and no one seems willing to to acknowledge that relationship. That leads me to believe that agitation for VR  is merely fantasizing. So far as I can tell the current UI is immutable. It would not work for VR. Blitz' accessibility for new players remains problematic. Help comes in the form of 3rd party apps for joystick control and mission generation. Essentially that makes Blitz a 3rd party app that uses other 3rd party apps as helpers. I don't know how that all works together when you want to toss in VR as another app. My guess is that the most reliable player base consists of MP users who are most comfortable with monitors. If I were managing development I would make more DLC content for them and let the VR agitators down easy, never confronting them with the reality of their situation.

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22 minutes ago, OBT-Mikmak said:

This poll is very partisan...

I am VR HP reverb owner and i am not against VR a all but i mainly play Cliff OF Dover Blitz cause it got features other simulators doesn't have.

 

This is precisely the reason why I decided to stir the pot.

Features which have nothing to do with Trueclouds/weather.

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6 hours ago, Slegawsky_VR said:

Lets hope one of the devs gets Reverb for Christmas this year maybe they just never flown in VR. No going back to monitor after that 😄

So far 18 people participated in the poll and only 2 were against VR work.


People keep saying this as if it’s true. 
 

I enjoyed VR so much I sold my Rift at a loss to get rid of it. 
 

That’s not a particularly useful poll though. TF probably will add VR at some point, when resources allow. I don’t mind them spending the effort, even though I don’t care for VR myself. 
You’ve worded it in such a way that you’ll probably only get results from people who agree with your premise though, which makes it a bit of a pointless exercise. 

There are other things on the roadmap to come first. VR will get here when it’s ready. 

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3 hours ago, Royal_Flight said:

 

I enjoyed VR so much I sold my Rift at a loss to get rid of it. 

Reverb G1 G2 or Index for flight sims unless you enjoy fuzzy blur.

And I strongly encourage the devs to purchase one and try it.

 

Next poll will be worded based on .50cal in IL2 vs CloD/T discussion, lots of frustrated players would switch possibly.

 

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17 hours ago, Slegawsky_VR said:

Actually, new poll will be based on the Bf109 tail section controversy. 

Surprisingly people made an effort and cast a vote, Im guessing G2 hype.

Would have been a lot more votes, for the COD VR survey, if the question also included an option for those who had already COD and Tobruk and were really awaiting VR to actually fly it.

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1 hour ago, Slegawsky_VR said:

Fan base is split and I'm preaching to the preachers about the VR flight sims.

Devs do it part time and most likely never flown in Reverb and I'm aware about prioritizing clouds over vr.

The "tell" here is that VR agitators never address how well the Blitz UI would accommodate VR. They seem to assume that the UI would "of course" be updated to suit VR, but that is not necessarily possible. Also, do not assume that trueSKY makes VR more likely. It must undoubtedly consume resources that would impact a VR implementation. trueSKY however would still work with non-VR DLC's so that is the more likely way forward. I think it would be more useful to ask what the MP audience would want in the way of new DLC.

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12 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

The "tell" here is that VR agitators never address how well the Blitz UI would accommodate VR. They seem to assume that the UI would "of course" be updated to suit VR, but that is not necessarily possible. Also, do not assume that trueSKY makes VR more likely. It must undoubtedly consume resources that would impact a VR implementation. trueSKY however would still work with non-VR DLC's so that is the more likely way forward. I think it would be more useful to ask what the MP audience would want in the way of new DLC.

Actually Truesky will be a net reduction of demand on the CPU.

 

CoD is a CPU heavy sim... the current clouds and weather are run on the CPU.... as are the AI, etc.

 

Truesky switches the Clouds/Weather systems to the GPU... which frees up the CPU for the new code required and also will improve the Sim as far as its ability to put more players online simultaneously as well as managing more AI aircraft/ships/vehicles/objects.

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2 hours ago, Enceladus said:

I hope that around the same time that the TrueSky weather engine is added, we’ll know if there will be another module, and if yes, where it will be 🙂.

We are hoping Truesky would be ready around February or March.

 

So no, we will not have a new module ready for that time period.

 

A new module is at least a year away.

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42 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

We are hoping Truesky would be ready around February or March.

 

So no, we will not have a new module ready for that time period.

 

A new module is at least a year away.

Thanks for giving us a date for TrueSky, I am sure that some people would like to know roughly when it will be added.

 

I was saying that I hope that the announcement of a new module, similar to how Jason just announced Flying Circus 2 and 3, were to be made around the same time that the weather engine is in the game, not that a new module be released around that time.

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13 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

Announcing the module at the same as Truesky is released would be a good idea? Players coming to check out the new weather would then see news of the future for v6 and wherever that takes us? 

 

Good marketing :)

 

That makes sense - time it so that both the release and the official announcement line up... although it'd also be nice to have some info on the forum earlier (for those of us who are already true converts).

 

As for the release of Truesky (and other improvements) - I really do feel that they should get a big version number change, and a 'named update' (i.e. not just a version number but some kind of dramatic name for the patch) in order to help ensure players notice. Similarly, it might be good to also list all of the post-launch improvements in the press release.

 

I'm not expert on marketing - but those are my inclinations anyway.

 

P.S. I'm cautiously hopeful that there is still a possibility of continued development - including a new module or aircraft... it is good to know that we can still hope for hope at the very least :)

Edited by Avimimus
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I think it's totally up to the "long haulers" and "true converts" to move Blitz forward. I am sure any new "true converts" are a precious commodity to be nurtured. More discussion of the trueSKY mod seems rational as it looks like a definite commitment and builds interest on everyone's part. It is tough for me to accept that there are no clips of the trueSKY mod to show even if in an alpha stage. That's a concern if a Spring release is being hinted at.

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1 hour ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I think it's totally up to the "long haulers" and "true converts" to move Blitz forward. I am sure any new "true converts" are a precious commodity to be nurtured. More discussion of the trueSKY mod seems rational as it looks like a definite commitment and builds interest on everyone's part. It is tough for me to accept that there are no clips of the trueSKY mod to show even if in an alpha stage. That's a concern if a Spring release is being hinted at.

Truesky is an established program, not unique to the CLIFFS OF DOVER engine.

 

This is what we are adding.

 

You can see what the program looks like on the Simul/TrueSky site and on youtube:

 

https://simul.co/

 

 

Below is for Unity... but we are hoping to see similar effects for water in CoD.

 

 

As to why it has taken longer than we hoped to bring the program into CoD, TrueSky has recently changed and updated their background software and introduced a new 4.3 version and therefore TF had to discard our earlier work and start again on implementing the new version into CoD.

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While I'm not telling anyone that "everyone should play in VR" or whatever, for me it's as simple as this; I'd love to play Tobruk, but I'm not prepared to play a flight sim that I can't play in VR any more. When Tobruk gets VR I'll buy it and play it. While it doesn't have VR I won't. To reiterate this as clearly as possible, play the game how you want. No-one is forcing you to buy a VR headset, but that's how it is for me.

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