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startrekmike

The full mission builder discussion.

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I understand that devs focus their scarce ressources into developing game parts that will provide financial return and as the assumption is that a FMB is a free tool they have little ressources to divert to something that does not immediately generate a return on investment.

 

My questions now are:

- do devs think that the probabiliy of game sales increase due to user created content is too low to risk the investment into a specialist who may work on such a tool? (From what I understand it seems like that)

- After release I guess there will be a reassessment of the situation to see if the success of the game is sufficient to risk the investment into a specialist. How big do devs estimate the risk that due to the lag of user created content the sales stay below necessary sales numbers to risk the investment into a specialist?

- What would be the criteria for devs to invest into a specialist? Is it that the previous sales allow to gather part of the sum or the total sum necessary for development?

- Would it be envisageable to sell the simplified FMB by a small unity price (order of magnitude: 1 plane or map equivalent for instance)?

- Could there be some crowd funding activity to support development of a simplified FMB earlier and independent of realized sales numbers after release?

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I think the tools should be available for separate download and linked to a mission building sub forum on these boards which could be FlatSpinMan's baby.

 

I think access to the sub forum should be open to all but only after reading and acknowledging something along the lines of "Abandon hope all ye who enter here." etc.

 

Nevertheless, a mission building tool that is on a par with what is provided for IL2 1946 should be seen as a priority after release. 

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Jason, I know the team and yourself appear to be in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation with releasing an ME.

 

All I can say is this.  I am not a programmer.  I used FMB in IL2 1946 to create training missions and coops for our squad.  When we got into ROF, I tried my hand at the ME.  Yes, it is complex and yes, it is cumbersome to work with.  BUT,  over time I figured it out and I made training missions and coops again for the squad.  Maybe I didn't take advantage of all the goodies that lie inside it, but enough to get me through.

 

Bottom line is that I think the "too complex" issue is a little over blown, especially if I could figure it out.  What if you provide it but put a big splash screen warning people that the program is intended for programmers and/or the technically inclined for content development and 1CGS, 777, etc. will not under any circumstances provide support.

 

Food for thought.

 

I think that the problem of the ROF mission editor is not complexity itself.

I've tested them both and I think that the advantage of the IL2 mission builder is the fact that is a "toy" not simply a technical instrument.

It is the way you build mission that is fun. The advantage is mainly in the 3d editor.....it is like building the scenario while staying inside it. You see the scenario becoming alive under your keystrokes with the same perspective of the player playing the sim. 

The IL2 mission builder attracts "artists" more than "programmers".

I think that many IL2 builders create missions with the mood of the movie director rather than that of the programmer.

Look at missions made by Ojisan_Bart (to take an example most probably know..) you see an artist behind more than anything else.

IL2 mission builder has been able to satisfy the exigence of creativity of these guys and meet this exigence with the exigence of creativity of the players.

Players ask a flexible toy, a toy with a lot of options, but something able to give fun to them while creating missions.

Do not forget that on the other side building mission is an hard work where builders spend countless hours before creating a mission ready for players.

IL2 ME made them having fun while working. 

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One of the biggest reasons the old Il-2 is still bringing in revenue today is the accessible FMB that even now sees new content made available almost daily. Rise of Flight has seen about five user made campaigns in the last five years by comparison. I'm sure if the devs were in a position to provide a more intuitive front end to their FMB they would. It's just a shame that the added complexity of moderns sims tends to carve the heart out of what once made them great.

Yes, true.

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I can't see how anyone could expect people to download RoF (even if they have no interest or knowledge about WWI at all), then make missions for that and release them (i don't assume the devs have time to check user made RoF missions right now?), only because they might get access to the BoS FMB then in return.

 

Of course the RoF FMB is very troublesome to use, but just not releasing any FMB for BOS publicly and instead just giving access to an elite group is not the right reaction to that imho and it certainly won't increase the number of mission creators or user made content in general.

 

I know how to make use of the RoF FMB just fine, even though i never released any SP missions for that.

 

I think they should just release the editor seperately (it should not install automatically with BoS) and with a clear disclaimer that it's not supported. And add a seperate mission making forum.

 

OR alternatively, make the current RoF FMB compatible with BOS.

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As I understand this whole FMB thing is that BoS is a single player game with a small multiplayer part?

 

I don't know the percentage of people playing single player compared to multiplayer.

 

How many people would be allowed to use the current FMB anyway? Are we talking 5 or 100? Selected mission makers in an already small community seems like a huge issue, especially if the game lives off new content.

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Just a thought, but the WWI client base is much smaller than the WWII one so there was a smaller possible base of mission builders for ROF's ME.

 

With a far larger base of WWII mission makers there are people who would give it a go. I for example haven't bothered at all with the ROF ME because I don't have h time or inclination as it's WWI. I'd put a lot of time into learning a new system for WWII and there's likely to be a few in my place.

 

Hood

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I can't see how anyone could expect people to download RoF (even if they have no interest or knowledge about WWI at all), then make missions for that and release them (i don't assume the devs have time to check user made RoF missions right now?), only because they might get access to the BoS FMB then in return.

 

That is what I was saying...Same happens with people actually involved in IL2 communities...It's unlikely that they will download ROF mission builder, build missions for an environment they do not are fan of, and with no practical interest, only because the might have access to the BOS FMB.

Different is if they start building missions for their IL2 community, even if only for the interest of testing the new sim, involving squadmates or players in the test, in mission building process...etc.

 

 

 

WWI client base is much smaller than the WWII one so there was a smaller possible base of mission builders for ROF's ME. 

 

With a far larger base of WWII mission makers there are people who would give it a go. I for example haven't bothered at all with the ROF ME because I don't have h time or inclination as it's WWI. I'd put a lot of time into learning a new system for WWII and there's likely to be a few in my place. 

 

That's what I was saying too. We should rely on the ROF mission builders which are not only less numerous than IL2's, but also in a good part devoted to WWI sims.

 

My opinion is that ME should be given to the founders community long before the release, so that they will be able to prepare the background for the sim release.

When the game will be launched there will be already a more rewarding experience for buyers of the game, not to talk of the echo created between the communities, which is a marketing reward in itself.

 

If founders have been able to react with maturity to the ALPHA state, they will be able to react the same way with a less than perfect mission builder.

Edited by FS_Fenice_1965

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If founders have been able to react with maturity to the ALPHA state, they will be able to react the same way with a less than perfect mission builder.

 

  This is a very good point, I don't know if they could realistically release the editor before the game comes out but it is safe to assume that those who have purchased the early access are perhaps in a position where they can better understand the nature of the mission builder situation and why support for the existing editor can't really be provided by the dev's.

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I can certainly understand both sides of this discussion.
 

Those who came from RoF know, or at least should know, that BoS uses the RoF engine not the old IL-2 one. So to expect that there would be a different FMB available, at least at this stage is wishful thinking. From what I understand, a simpler more user friendly FMB basically needs to be built from scratch. From what Jason has alluded to, it seems that they would like to be able to implement one but it just isnt possible yet for the reason stated before.

 

With that being said I agree with the community, that It would be nice to still have to more complex one available to learn if you so choose. However like many others have said, I think that for the longevity of BoS, it is important to eventually have a more user friendly FMB at some point in the future. If we are going to see one, we need to continue to support this sim and build a bigger, stronger community.

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With that being said I agree with the community, that It would be nice to still have to more complex one available to learn if you so choose. However like many others have said, I think that for the longevity of BoS, it is important to eventually have a more user friendly FMB at some point in the future. If we are going to see one, we need to continue to support this sim and build a bigger, stronger community.

 

I think that's what most of us are thinking and saying. It doesn't have to be right now but it should be high on the list of priorities.... perhaps higher than some think.

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I think that's what most of us are thinking and saying. It doesn't have to be right now but it should be high on the list of priorities.... perhaps higher than some think.

That's true, no need to be instant, but could come in 1 or 2 years, till there, the community can use the old Rof one, I know its Complex, no offense, but IMHO the community of IL2 its Much Bigger than the Rof one, so the Tutorials would flow and the knowledge of the old editor Himself could change in a better way, you know, the community make miracles.

 

Releasing an IL2 Whitout the FMB would be a deccision that destroy the game.

 

This is a very important deccision, so please DEVS listen to us, we paid for it, we want the best of it. Release the ME as it is, later , the things can change

Edited by 15[Span]/Manu_vc

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Release or not release the FMB, you always have people who are not happy. But, for me it's a must have.

 

I understand you're fade up to hear that Rof editor is too dificult, and i agree with you, because most of the people who said me that, have never used it or didn't take the time to understand how it works (even if there is plenty documentation). RoF editor is a kind of photoshop. When you run it the firts time, it's not a user friendly soft, but, after taking time to understand a few tools, you can do many things you can't if you only use Paint.

 

Again, please release the editor, because there are lot of person who have build mission on RoF, but never release it. Mission are played on dedicated server, and players have a good game. I want to add that all that person who knows the RoF editor can provide help for new mission builder. It's a great advantage compared to other simulation, because, you already have documentation, and person who knows the editor. You'll find several level of knwoledge on the editor, but all have the basis to explain and help. And at that time no simulator have that chance. You have a pool of mission builder, and even if they don't have the level of Vander, Sonk, and others i forgot, they can can provide mission where player can have great time.

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The decision not to release a public FMB is non-sensical IMHO. I've read Jason's explanation, but I don't agree with the reasons he gave us.

As complex as any tool can be, even if it's not user-friendly at all or broken in some places (and believe me, I've gone through my fair share of headaches with the RoF, DCS and CloD mission builders/editors altogether), having ANY tool is just enough for me...

Apparently, it's asking too much.

Edited by 71st_AH_Chuck

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A Poll would help the Devs of seeing what the communty wants? someone Create one

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Considering the target number of sales needed for success (200,000 according to Loft) vs the number of people posting here about the FMB...do the maths. The success or failure of this sim will have not a gnat's chuff to do with the FMB, skins, movies or whatever. It will be dictated by the number of casual flyers with an old joystick knocking about who have never even heard of an FMB. All our founder badges show is we're hardcore nut-jobs, not those who will make/break this sim with our future purchasing decisions. The fact is, if we get an FMB it will be a huge favour from the devs, not a neccessity for them.

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But forums of simmers are the more loud voices. Casual gamers use internet and will read opinions of those on forums to form their decisions.

Not to talk that a forum like this counts 15000 subscribers alone. 

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Considering the target number of sales needed for success (200,000 according to Loft) vs the number of people posting here about the FMB...do the maths. The success or failure of this sim will have not a gnat's chuff to do with the FMB, skins, movies or whatever. It will be dictated by the number of casual flyers with an old joystick knocking about who have never even heard of an FMB. All our founder badges show is we're hardcore nut-jobs, not those who will make/break this sim with our future purchasing decisions. The fact is, if we get an FMB it will be a huge favour from the devs, not a neccessity for them.

 

 

  Here is the thing, I agree that they are targeting a market that may not care much about a FMB (let alone a complex one like the ROF editor) but in the end, that same audience is going to be the type that plays the sim for a few weeks (at the most) and fades away in search of another new release from another genre, we may not be the primary market anymore (something Microsoft tried with Microsoft flight, I hope this does not get the same outcome) but we are the ones that will actually give it legs to stand on, we are the ones that are going to keep it going long after the casual market has moved on.

 

  Every combat flight sim that I have ever played (at least since the mid to late 90's) has had a FMB of some sort or another and considering this is a IL-2 title, there is going to be a decent crowd of folks who have not gotten here yet that are going to ask "where is the editor?" and when it is not there, they might just keep moving along, that is what I am afraid of most, this is a good sim, it deserves a fair shot with BOTH the casual/midcore market and the hardcore market, if including a editor that already exists, already is working and already planned for a small minority anyway as a public download, I see that as a small cost to pay for cross market appeal.

 

  I don't want this sim to fail, the 1C/777 guys have put too much work and too much time into it for the lack of a mission editor to cut it's legs off.

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 we may not be the primary market anymore (something Microsoft tried with Microsoft flight, I hope this does not get the same outcome) but we are the ones that will actually give it legs to stand on, we are the ones that are going to keep it going long after the casual market has moved on.

 

 

 

I agree with that sentiment... and a big part of the reason the original IL2's success.

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Well put mike.. When the single players as well as the multi players, all grow tired of the missions they've flown over and over, what will keep them here to buy the next aircraft or map?  The community that keeps building missions and providing new skins ...almost daily.  People WILL get bored if they can't add to the game on a very regular basis.  If the "company" doesn't let the community participate like we're accustomed to, it's cutting off it's own foot imo.

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Considering the target number of sales needed for success (200,000 according to Loft) vs the number of people posting here about the FMB...do the maths. The success or failure of this sim will have not a gnat's chuff to do with the FMB, skins, movies or whatever. It will be dictated by the number of casual flyers with an old joystick knocking about who have never even heard of an FMB. All our founder badges show is we're hardcore nut-jobs, not those who will make/break this sim with our future purchasing decisions. The fact is, if we get an FMB it will be a huge favour from the devs, not a neccessity for them.

 

let me say other than ud . There are still many people who have not bought simulators BOS , waiting to see results and not make the mistakes of buying a defective product in advance as happened previously . The FMB as ud ME or whatever you call it , is the life of any virtual community of flight , we have the most plate founders belong to any squad and we salivate the fact you can enjoy with friends.
These squads are the most varied , some only fly hunting , others just attack or bomber , he floored Germans or Russians others only by the color of il2 old always blue or always red, other wings are polyfunctional the ME are those that allow you to these wings keep activadad , campaigns and missions training and like I said anteriormento are all different . I think that's something the Single Player or Multiplayer mode servers can not provide
Casual players are just that, casual . While we are thinking that new aircraft or theaters of operations can be performed in or out, they'll be thinking of that other game can play.
I understand the perfection that the revenue generated by these types of players and it is a market more than appreciable for any company , but I think they are not seeing that there are still hard market simulation , which is awaiting comments from users who already have the product and it is also a more important long-term market with new plans and maps
 
En castellano me es mas facil, disculpen la traduccion---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
permitame opinar distinto a ud. Todavia hay mucha gente de simuladores que no han comprado el BOS, esperando ver resultados y no cometer los errores de comprar por adelantado un producto defectuoso como ocurrio anteriormente. El ME o FMB como ud quiera llamarlo, es la vida de cualquier comunidad virtual de vuelo, la mayoria que tenemos la placa de fundadores, pertenecemos a algun escuadron y se nos hace agua la boca el hecho poder disfrutar con los amigos.
Estos escuadrones son de los mas variados, algunos sólo vuelan de caza, otros sólo de ataque o bomber, soló alemanes o rusos otros sólo por el color del viejo il2 siempre azul o siempre rojo, otras alas son polifuncionales los ME son los que le permiten a estas alas mantener la activadad, con campañas y misiones de entrenamientos y como dije anteriormento todas son distintas. Creo que eso es algo que el modo Single Player o Multiplayer de servidores no puede prestar 
Los jugadores ocasionales son solo eso, ocasionales. Mientras nosotros estamos pensando en que nuevos aviones o teatros de operaciones pueden realizar o salir, ellos estaran pensando en que otro juego pueden jugar.
Entiendo a la perfeccion que los ingresos generados por estos tipos de jugadores y que es un mercado mas que apreciable para cualquier compañia, pero creo que no estan viendo que todavia hay mercado de simulacion hard, que esta esperando comentarios de los usuarios que ya disponemos del producto y tambien es un mercado mas que importante a largo plazo con los nuevos planos y mapas

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Release or not release the FMB, you always have people who are not happy. But, for me it's a must have.

 

...

Again, please release the editor, because there are lot of person who have build mission on RoF, but never release it. Mission are played on dedicated server, and players have a good game. I want to add that all that person who knows the RoF editor can provide help for new mission builder. It's a great advantage compared to other simulation, because, you already have documentation, and person who knows the editor. You'll find several level of knwoledge on the editor, but all have the basis to explain and help. And at that time no simulator have that chance. You have a pool of mission builder, and even if they don't have the level of Vander, Sonk, and others i forgot, they can can provide mission where player can have great time.

I think this is true. The first two years or so it felt as if I was the only one making missions for RoF, but nowadays I see many more people creating missions. But very often they create them for their own use or their squad so it's not generally known. Edited by SYN_Vander

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I think that the problem of the ROF mission editor is not complexity itself.

I've tested them both and I think that the advantage of the IL2 mission builder is the fact that is a "toy" not simply a technical instrument.

It is the way you build mission that is fun. The advantage is mainly in the 3d editor.....it is like building the scenario while staying inside it. You see the scenario becoming alive under your keystrokes with the same perspective of the player playing the sim. 

The IL2 mission builder attracts "artists" more than "programmers". 

 

Very god comment!

 

Looking back on my own quite private escapades in the IL2 FMB I realize it was the "playing" aspect that I enjoyed.

 

I fully understand that 777 do not have the resources to make a "toy" mission builder a la IL2 now, and can only hope they will in the future. I also hope enough people "qualify" for having the FMB. The "very good" mission builders, those approaching professional builders, mostly do not make the type of missions I enjoy. They are well built, but often a bit "sterile", and often geared towards the high skilled fighter pilot (I'm not that quick on the stick, and like ground pounding best). What made IL2 home made missions so great was the variety of missions, ground pounding, bomber missions, unusual rescue missions, "what if" scenarios and even fantasy missions.

 

I really, really hope we get an editor down the road.

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Considering the target number of sales needed for success (200,000 according to Loft) vs the number of people posting here about the FMB...do the maths. The success or failure of this sim will have not a gnat's chuff to do with the FMB, skins, movies or whatever. It will be dictated by the number of casual flyers with an old joystick knocking about who have never even heard of an FMB. All our founder badges show is we're hardcore nut-jobs, not those who will make/break this sim with our future purchasing decisions. The fact is, if we get an FMB it will be a huge favour from the devs, not a neccessity for them.

I don't think the casual gamer with an old stick is going to support a $100.00 game. Even $60.00 for the standard version would be a stretch. From being around the forums and watching You Tube comments I think a game with a short plane set will be a tough sell. Enough complained about RoF's 2 plane set that the number was upped to 4. The casual gamer is used to large plane sets where the simmer can pilot a varying amount of craft from numerous countries. I think IL2 has a tough row to hoe.

 

  Here is the thing, I agree that they are targeting a market that may not care much about a FMB (let alone a complex one like the ROF editor) but in the end, that same audience is going to be the type that plays the sim for a few weeks (at the most) and fades away in search of another new release from another genre, we may not be the primary market anymore (something Microsoft tried with Microsoft flight, I hope this does not get the same outcome) but we are the ones that will actually give it legs to stand on, we are the ones that are going to keep it going long after the casual market has moved on.

 

  Every combat flight sim that I have ever played (at least since the mid to late 90's) has had a FMB of some sort or another and considering this is a IL-2 title, there is going to be a decent crowd of folks who have not gotten here yet that are going to ask "where is the editor?" and when it is not there, they might just keep moving along, that is what I am afraid of most, this is a good sim, it deserves a fair shot with BOTH the casual/midcore market and the hardcore market, if including a editor that already exists, already is working and already planned for a small minority anyway as a public download, I see that as a small cost to pay for cross market appeal.

 

  I don't want this sim to fail, the 1C/777 guys have put too much work and too much time into it for the lack of a mission editor to cut it's legs off.

 

Will the casual (2 week player you mention) be willing to invest the price 1C/777 are asking? IDK. I hope so.

 

I could be wrong, but without a steady source of missions and campaigns the long time player may lose interest too. I can't tell you how many campaigns I've downloaded from Mission4Today and they certainly kept my interest through the years. With out a decent supply of BoS campaigns/missions my interest will dwindle significantly. I'm not an online player so there's limited appeal already.

 

Given the progeny I assumed a mission editor would be included. Both RoF and IL2 contained one. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect one. How many would have plunked $89.00 for a gold status if they knew a ME wasn't going to be included?

 

I personally think there's something more to this and it goes beyond a ME. When 777 got the IL2 BoS development rights, Jason emphatically said that this game has to be released in 18 months. Now it's pushed back (wisely I believe) til Fall. I can't help but wonder how much pressure 1C is exerting on the developers and because of that omissions are being considered.

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  Here is the thing, I agree that they are targeting a market that may not care much about a FMB (let alone a complex one like the ROF editor) but in the end, that same audience is going to be the type that plays the sim for a few weeks (at the most) and fades away in search of another new release from another genre, we may not be the primary market anymore (something Microsoft tried with Microsoft flight, I hope this does not get the same outcome) but we are the ones that will actually give it legs to stand on, we are the ones that are going to keep it going long after the casual market has moved on.

 

  Every combat flight sim that I have ever played (at least since the mid to late 90's) has had a FMB of some sort or another and considering this is a IL-2 title, there is going to be a decent crowd of folks who have not gotten here yet that are going to ask "where is the editor?" and when it is not there, they might just keep moving along, that is what I am afraid of most, this is a good sim, it deserves a fair shot with BOTH the casual/midcore market and the hardcore market, if including a editor that already exists, already is working and already planned for a small minority anyway as a public download, I see that as a small cost to pay for cross market appeal.

 

  I don't want this sim to fail, the 1C/777 guys have put too much work and too much time into it for the lack of a mission editor to cut it's legs off.

 

The casual players who'll melt away a few weeks after buying BoS, looking for The Next Big Thing, will have already handed over their money, and it's their money that'll have made or broken the future of it. Those left behind (us), what we continue to do or not do won't matter an iota. If the devs carry on it'll be to sell the next package to all the casuals who bought the first, not to keep us happy. We're a tiny minority of connoisseurs, not the target customer base. Our only use to the devs is to help them avoid running onto a rocky coast, not help them steer a finer course up a pretty river. And anyone who thinks an FMB or unique skins is part of a rocky coast is deluding themselves. To tell the truth, not even an La5 with a UFO FM would count as rocky to the target purchasers, which is why there's a good chance the 109's bungee-cord characteristics will never be addressed. WiP though, right? On your knees and pray boys...both for BoS and for TF to crack CloD's SDK and start turning out new high-fidelity planes for that.

 

Adopt a rational attitude, one of cynicism, and you're far less likely, ultimately, to be too badly disappointed. And if cynicism is confounded you'll be even more of a winner.

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Hard to know what is the right thing to do....

 

Remember this Sim is RoF WW2 not IL2 and the developers are stuck with the complicated RoF FMB they made years a go, I have tried using the RoF FMB but didn't enjoy it so did not use it. I've probably put in 1000hrs on the old IL2 FMB as I enjoyed using it and it was user friendly.

 

But us campaign designers always complained that the old IL2 FMB was TOO simple!! and that we wanted a few more complex options added - triggers, scripts, formations, cut scenes, briefing pics/vids etc..

 

So all the BoS developers have to do is make the perfect FMB that's not too simple and not too complex and will please everyone!! But also remember many players (myself included) will drift away from the game if its not easy to make and add new missions/campaigns/skins.

 

My dream is that we can have a FMB similar to the old IL2 FMB with a few more features.

 

My gut feeling is that 777/1CGS like to keep full control over their product and we will only see paid content in the future rather than free community made stuff.

 

.

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So all the BoS developers have to do is make the perfect FMB that's not too simple and not too complex and will please everyone!! But also remember many players (myself included) will drift away from the game if its not easy to make and add new missions/campaigns/skins.

 

My dream is that we can have a FMB similar to the old IL2 FMB with a few more features.

 

 

This would be my dream also, I hope if this sim succeeds the developers can see fit to spend the resources to do just that. It would go a really long way in increasing it's longevity imho.

The FMB in IL2 played a large part in it's great success and it still do this day being a very popular sim.

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My enjoyment with the FMB is the fact that I can indulge my imagination with "what if scenarios", or scenarios that have a specific tactical flavor. If the FMB is released to only a few will I be able to order up a mission with my desired parameters, or is it off the shelf and nothing more? Fast food under the hot lights vs. gourmet cuisine.

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Yeah the ME is a bit of pain in the ass to start with, but once you get your head around it it really isn't that bad and I'll explain why.

 

There is a functionality of the ME that makes it much more manageable for those who don't fully understand how everything comes together in the ME, but is a powerful one to use for those who do understand it. Instead of having to scratch build everything in a mission you use things called groups, which are basically templates for things that happen in a mission. For example, I would make a flight of aircraft spawn in, takeoff, fly around, and land using a bunch of triggers and waypoints and save it as "4 ship circuit." Using this "4 ship circuit" group I can insert as many as I want into the mission anytime without having to constantly rebuild everything. All the end user has to understand is how to use the target and object links to make a simple mission, but more advanced users who understand the ME use these groups as a basis for a mission and add all their own modifications to these groups after the fact to tweak the mission how they want.

 

If 1CGS wanted to successfully release the ME (if it's basically RoF's editor) to the community they would need to supply a central repository of official groups to use. By understanding the object/AI limitations and having a large amount of groups to download, future ME users will only need to connect/edit the groups to make their own missions much like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. The problem is making a lot of groups is tedious work and aren't really standardised so others not familiar with the ME may not know how to use groups from one mission maker to the next. Groups are usually something which usually build up on a mission maker's hard drive as their experience in the ME increases to make their life easier. By making my own groups for missions as I learnt the ME I basically removed the time I needed to actually build the mission, so most of my time for missions was spent testing it rather than stuffing around in the ME trying to figure out why something I just made didn't work.

 

TLDR; "Using Groups = You Win at the ME"

Edited by SYN_Requiem
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Right so the very same people who gave you most of your enjoyment with ROF would under this select program still be able to make missions for you.

 

Jason

 

What about me and others like me?

I made missions for myself and my squad in both old Il-2 and RoF (150+ in total), but never published anything.

I took my time and learmed how to use RoF ME and i have never bothered anyone with "its too hard to use" nonsence by email.

I don't think there's a way to dumb it down and keep all of it's featrues btw. And when you were talking about simplyfing RoF ME for BoS, i wasn't really happy about it, but no ME at all is even worse.

 

Will people like me (People who know how to use RoF ME, but you don't know them) make the cut for "select program", or are we not good enought for you?

 

Personally i think you should release it as a free separate download with disclaimer that says sth like this: "This is a dev tool, if your're too stupid to use it, tough luck. We won't make it simpler, don't bother us about it.", but more politely. But thats your call...

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Yeah the ME is a bit of pain in the ass to start with, but once you get your head around it it really isn't that bad and I'll explain why.

 

There is a functionality of the ME that makes it much more manageable for those who don't fully understand how everything comes together in the ME, but is a powerful one to use for those who do understand it. Instead of having to scratch build everything in a mission you use things called groups, which are basically templates for things that happen in a mission. For example, I would make a flight of aircraft spawn in, takeoff, fly around, and land using a bunch of triggers and waypoints and save it as "4 ship circuit." Using this "4 ship circuit" group I can insert as many as I want into the mission anytime without having to constantly rebuild everything. All the end user has to understand is how to use the target and object links to make a simple mission, but more advanced users who understand the ME use these groups as a basis for a mission and add all their own modifications to these groups after the fact to tweak the mission how they want.

 

If 1CGS wanted to successfully release the ME (if it's basically RoF's editor) to the community they would need to supply a central repository of official groups to use. By understanding the object/AI limitations and having a large amount of groups to download, future ME users will only need to connect/edit the groups to make their own missions much like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. The problem is making a lot of groups is tedious work and aren't really standardised so others not familiar with the ME may not know how to use groups from one mission maker to the next. Groups are usually something which usually build up on a mission maker's hard drive as their experience in the ME increases to make their life easier. By making my own groups for missions as I learnt the ME I basically removed the time I needed to actually build the mission, so most of my time for missions was spent testing it rather than stuffing around in the ME trying to figure out why something I just made didn't work.

 

TLDR; "Using Groups = You Win at the ME"

 

 

  You make a lot of really good observations and points here, it makes me think that perhaps that would be the best way to teach the editor to new users in general, focus on thinking about everything in terms of groups and even perhaps having a "user files" area (either on the official site or even elsewere on a site made by a community member) that contains some of the more useful groups and explanations on how they are used would be a great start.

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Having made missions in the RoF editor for my squad (even had a server up for a while), I am of the opinion that to not make the ME available to those that want it but to a select few only is poorly thought out.

 

Ardmore.

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This is very concerning.  I want 777/1C to prosper with BoS.  I hope one day the BoS series of games will become as strong as IL-2 1946 and the games before it.  But without a FMB I don't see how the devs or a small community of experts can churn out the content that will make this a great series of games.  It isn't the eye candy or FM's that makes a great game in the end, it is content.

 

Nothing to do but wait and see, but unless the online campaign system is outrageously good (not just QMB type missions strung together) I'm afraid of what will happen to BoS sales when it is released.  A concern cited by Jason is criticism of the FMB as being too complicated.  The internet buzz for a game with little content will be hugely worse and I just don't see how 777/1C and a small community of experts can build that content by themselves.

 

I've tried to play BoS MP online and the "human opponent bug" just hasn't bitten me.  I last about 20 minutes and then I'm bored.  I shot Tom down, John shot me down.  What still has me playing 100's of hours are the over 400 IL-2 1946 campaigns on Mission4Today.  That's where I'll go back to if I can't find that kind of depth in BoS, and I'm afraid many will do the same.  The BoS servers won't prosper and it will be a downward domino effect.

 

It's all about content. Content is what will sell this game.  And the depth many players are looking for will have to come from the community.

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I Own ROF but I have never tried the editor.

Is it really so difficult to use? Just curious.

I should give it a try, one of these days!

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....to have it available to the select mission builders out there...I think we all pretty well know who they are...

 

No, you dont know the majority of the MB's, all that guys building hundred missions for their own squadron and mates.
I was worried when i knew there will not be coop mode but they said "you dont need them with RoF MB", now they say "only few selected will have BoS MB" ...... i'm confused, looks like they dont want organized squadrons as buyers.
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I do think as well BoS ME should be released to community. Some squads like to fly together on training missions, others like to fight against AI only, others fly intersquad, others fly acrobatic, some like air-racing,... I think there're many different ways to play BoS that should be considered (and not only MP campaign), and all those ways need more than QMB.

 

I'm aware about RoF ME criticism and devs do have to take this fact into acount... but giving BoS ME to "selected few only", even after game release, might not be the best way to calm criticism down.

 

Cheers,

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Like a lot of others that have posted,I would hate to lose FMB. I also realize the economic "Challenges" of producing a Flight-Sim in the year where "APPS" are sold in the millions and Flight-Sims are sold in the 3-5 thousands !

Flight-Simming is a tiny community(Compared to any of the mainstream games you choose),yet we are very demanding for the 90 Bucks we spent !

Its gotta stop or we will be extinct. We will be a" laughable"  proposition for any investor or developer !

About time,us Flight-Simmers realized, the glory days of IL2 are gone . WE got Spoilt by Oleg and with our Multitude of planes, Theaters etc. We had HSFX,DBW etc,etc.

Now our numbers are down.

Some people(in our small community) are going to disagree with me on what I say next.

@Jason, why not make a poll asking,"Who would Pay Extra" for a FMB ?

The guys that don't want it don't subscribe and have no say. If there is enough positive feedback (and commitment in $),would you reconsider ?

I"ll gladly start the ball rolling. I would pay 50$ for a good FMB addon to BOS !

 

Anyone else willing to pay for what you want in your Flight-Sim ?..

Bos without a FMB is going to become Boring very quickly for me and I am willing to pay for the time and development needed to produce a FMB.

 

Its 2014 and we pay through the nose for our Food, Phones, Internet, Insurance, Rent/Mortgage,Petrol,Pets and the cost of living...and we whinge  but pay them.....Yet when we spend 90 Bucks on a Flight-Sim , we are entitled to  everything we Demand ?

Bottom line for me is this. IL2 days were wonderful with lots of people...and options !  Those days are gone....Like RL,if enough people are willing to "Pay" for something they want,they will get it(just ask Ronald Mc).

I don't want to see another "Dead" SIM and I don't want a WT game either.

~S~

 

 

 

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We do hear you asking for the MB. We will give it to players when it's ready. We can't make it possible sooner that it's planned (even extra money wouldn't help much since it's about vacant specialists, not about paying more to the existing ones)

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It's a very good news zak. :biggrin:

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