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Yardstick

Disappointing Tobruk map

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Posted (edited)

There is a lot to like about the Desert Wings - Tobruk, so I don't really want to post this but I have to say that so far I have been very underwhelmed by the new map. 

 

I appreciate that the desert is relatively featureless, so I am not expecting the Hanging Gardens of Babylon or Herds of Wilderbeast sweeping majestically across the plains.  However, what I am struggling with is the almost complete lack of detail in the textures down low.  The ground textures appear to be of such low resolution that there is very little difference between them from 100m or 1,000m apart from them get more blurry the lower you get.  This makes spatial orientation very difficult, I'm struggling to gauge altitude and there is absolutely no sense of speed low down.  I accept there are limitations to the game engine but these blurry ground textures remind me of Janes Longbow 2 from 1997.  Others have highlighted the difficulty in picking out landing strips from the surrounding terrain but that is just one symptom of a greater issue.

 

Deserts are, well ... deserted and but they are not completely devoid of any detail.  There is scrub, rocks and boulders even small changes in the height of the terrain will cast shadows giving depth.  Even sand has texture and variation in colour and reflects light in subtly different ways.  The below are a couple of Google Earth screenshots of approx. 1 km squares from the area around Derna.   The satellite images are of a poor quality but you can clearly see the variety and detail in the terrain, something I just don't feel is represented by the Tobruk map.

 

 1345256049_Image1.thumb.jpg.3cf9eff254baf28055888e60bad66b0c1.jpg.a7957517cf01df01cd9a0c5f2b5c6aa9.jpg

 

Image3.thumb.jpg.d43936ca833e36ee6aefea72b3bdb2c9.jpg

 

The following are screenshots taken just west of Derna - A 1,000m, B 100m and C 2,000m.    The shot from 100m illustrates my point about the lack of detail (textures, objects and shadows).  There is just nothing available for us to judge speed and altitude. 

 

shot_20200807_233431.thumb.jpg.03faa7675fe25937dd43a372fad25bbf.jpg

 

shot_20200807_233138.thumb.jpg.7784eccdce55ff412e31f1e79d312e21.jpg

 

shot_20200807_233224.thumb.jpg.e91cdd66836d3085b87f93d72017839b.jpg

 

Edited by Yardstick
typo
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Are you sure you are looking at the Derna section of the map?>... there are features and terrain which are exactly taken from the area, including the characteristic orange hue of the rocks.

 

image.thumb.png.270dadec76e87e692adab9f62f8d4bfc.png

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Posted (edited)

Apologies - the images in my first post are from the area east of Derna.

 

However, the issue Is not really how the terrain looks from 2,000m.  Although having said that even in the above image, which is representative of one of the more visually diverse areas, there are essentially only 2 basic colours used with a lack of subtle variation.  Compare that to the Google maps image in the original post. 

 

My biggest gripe is that there is a complete lack of any fine detail down low , just the same flat texture that we can see from up on high.  Where is the detail down low - rocks and scrub casting shadows that help to create a sense of perspective and speed?   Look at image B in my original post (the area adjacent to the first airfield east of Derna) - there is absolutely no detail.  I feel like I need to do a IFR landing every time.

Edited by Yardstick
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Has anyone allready discovered Mos Isley or the Beggars Canyon? Banthas aren´t modeled either I fear? ;)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Blooddawn1942 said:

Has anyone allready discovered Mos Isley or the Beggars Canyon? Banthas aren´t modeled either I fear? ;)

 

I did see a fun easter egg on my very 1st post download flights, I kept it to myself so as not to spoil the discovery for others. But now I can't recall exactly where it was in the Wadi. 

Guess I'll go exploring again

 

EDIT: Found mine again, though I'm sure there's more to discover.

 

Daz

Edited by dazako

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1 hour ago, Blooddawn1942 said:

Has anyone allready discovered Mos Isley or the Beggars Canyon? Banthas aren´t modeled either I fear? ;)

 

I was flying a Bf-108 and I did look for Banthas and wondered how different it is from a T-16 skyhopper... I then had this incredible urge to chase Indiana Jones... followed by a lingering concern that hasn't left me about how much movies that happen to have Harrison Ford in them seem to be influencing my perceptions of the interior of North Africa... I really need to do a physical/social geography binge to expunge the sense of guilt :)

18 hours ago, Yardstick said:

The following are screenshots taken just west of Derna - A 1,000m, B 100m and C 2,000m.    The shot from 100m illustrates my point about the lack of detail (textures, objects and shadows).  There is just nothing available for us to judge speed and altitude.

 

It varies a bit depending on the part of the map. Some areas have a bit more scrub or textures that make for more detail.

 

I've also found that the huge ridge-lines on the map tend to give a sense of size and height (in contrast to the deceptively plain surroundings)... in a way that actually benefits from the limitations on detail.

 

I've also encountered areas where there is a real sense of sand dunes transgressing other terrain types.

 

Anyway, for me, as a Canadian who lives with indirect sunlight most of the year with a slight degree of 'colour blindness' and a bit of dourness,  I have this strong reaction to the map of England and the map of North Africa along the lines of 'No where in the world could colours be that bright! Impossible!'... but I suspect it is more due to not having traveled to these areas.

 

So, I'm still overwhelmed enough by colour saturation that I've not moved on to your concerns. Anyway: Does any computer game do justice to the real natural world? No. Could this sim do better at capturing minor variations in textures and bump-map contours? Of course. Is it quite enjoyable in its current state? Yes.

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Which time did you set for the screenshots? At 12:00 the sund is directly above you, so the lack of shadows is correct. I found setting it to something late like 20:00 brings out more details.

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Can you post a screenie of Mos Isley so I'll know what to look for?

The lack of features inland or along some stretches of coast line is the only disappointment for me. The cities/towns appear to be bare boned & I hope more will be added as time goes by?  I admit I am having a tough time finding the desert airfields as well. I cannot find the perimeters ( if there are any?) If wind direction is important ...? I came back from the first Stuka campaign mission ( alive) and the two ( I think two..) airfield were busy with Ju-87's & Bf-110's landing en mass from several different directions.I could not figure out any discernible pattern and on final the found the lack of ground details or texture didn't allow the most graceful of landing as I hit the ground pretty hard & bounced my  way into the end of what I perceived to be the end of the runway or was it just the landing field?

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Posted (edited)

Just a quick example of what lighting does to the map.

2 images of the same area at roughly the same height at noon and 8 am shows the significant difference lighting has on the runway colour.

 

shot_20200808_132001.thumb.jpg.5554d7e2bd1af1c1f8ec2e9e446c6428.jpg
 

shot_20200808_132454.thumb.jpg.4a1669a51e68e8dbd9125a66dd7fff5f.jpg

 

The more time I've spent away from the current online server focus region of Sollum the more appreciation I have for the map. The Wadi's, sand dunes and general scrub detail are all there down low, giving the sense of speed / altitude / atmosphere. Clearly rendered 'better' with different lighting at times other than high noon. 

 

Daz

Edited by dazako

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4 hours ago, OBT-Mikmak said:

West of Derna...

 

5210.jpg


I mean, that doesn't look remotely good neither. The plane looks great i'll give you that, but the ground texture looks like something i'd except from Rogue Squadron 3D.

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14 minutes ago, dazako said:

Just a quick example of what lighting does to the map.

2 images of the same area at roughly the same height at noon and 8 am shows the significant difference lighting has on the runway colour.

 

shot_20200808_132001.thumb.jpg.5554d7e2bd1af1c1f8ec2e9e446c6428.jpg
 

shot_20200808_132454.thumb.jpg.4a1669a51e68e8dbd9125a66dd7fff5f.jpg

 

The more time I've spent away from the current online server focus region of Sollum the more appreciation I have for the map. The Wadi's, sand dunes and general scrub detail are all there down low, giving the sense of speed / altitude / atmosphere. Clearly rendered 'better' with different lighting at times other than high noon. 

 

Daz

I hope someone sees this.As you say lighting really makes a difference, I'm not sure how this would effect in flight lighting, but it sure makes a difference here!

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Blitzen said:

Can you post a screenie of Mos Isley so I'll know what to look for?

 

That was a joke. I doubt that there is such an easter egg. :)

Edited by Blooddawn1942

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18 minutes ago, Blooddawn1942 said:

That was a joke. I doubt that there is such an easter egg. :)

I do remember there were Easter Eggs in the very first version of CloD: a cartoon face that showed up on an iced in windscreen & a rolling pencil in the Blenheim, so it wasn't out of the question...🙃

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5 minutes ago, Blitzen said:

I do remember there were Easter Eggs in the very first version of CloD: a cartoon face that showed up on an iced in windscreen & a rolling pencil in the Blenheim, so it wasn't out of the question...🙃

Yea. I remember the Führer on the iced windscreen of the Stuka. 😄

 

btw, why was the icing effect removed? 

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Posted (edited)
On 8/8/2020 at 3:47 PM, Blooddawn1942 said:

Yea. I remember the Führer on the iced windscreen of the Stuka. 😄

 

btw, why was the icing effect removed? 

 

[Edited]

 

Keep politics off these boards.

Edited by Bearcat
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Posted (edited)
On 8/8/2020 at 4:02 PM, theOden said:

 

[Edited]

I don't get it? What are You referring to? I honestly wanted to know, why this cool feature was abandoned years ago. I was just referring to the iced windshields, I don't care about the cartoon Adolf. :)

 

Edit : ah, ok. You are referring to the ever present political correctness these days. Now I got it. 

Edited by Bearcat

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46 minutes ago, Blooddawn1942 said:

That was a joke. I doubt that there is such an easter egg. :)

 

There is at least 1 small easter egg which makes me think there'd be more with a map this size. While flying along I made a mental reference to a familiar movie scene,  and not a minute later there was the proof it wasn't just me. I'd rather others discover it for themselves than spoil the fun by posting a picture.

 

Daz

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26 minutes ago, Blooddawn1942 said:

Yea. I remember the Führer on the iced windscreen of the Stuka. 😄

 

btw, why was the icing effect removed? 

Way back then I believe it was part of a big attempt to increase FPS...

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11 minutes ago, dazako said:

 

There is at least 1 small easter egg which makes me think there'd be more with a map this size. While flying along I made a mental reference to a familiar movie scene,  and not a minute later there was the proof it wasn't just me. I'd rather others discover it for themselves than spoil the fun by posting a picture.

 

Daz

So I'm looking forward to discover it. I guess, I know it when I see it? :)

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38 minutes ago, theOden said:

Most probably the now so popular cancel culture of the lefties.

 

Because the only people who are offended by treating a genocidal fascist as a humorous subject are lefties? If that were actually the case - then I think there'd be justification for people being a bit over-reactive! Anyway, I doubt anyone would really argue that no-one has a right to be a bit sensitive about Hitler (at least anyone who isn't a holocaust denier). After all, some people lost their entire extended families.

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12 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

 

Because the only people who are offended by treating a genocidal fascist as a humorous subject are lefties? If that were actually the case - then I think there'd be justification for people being a bit over-reactive! Anyway, I doubt anyone would really argue that no-one has a right to be a bit sensitive about Hitler (at least anyone who isn't a holocaust denier). After all, some people lost their entire extended families.

You have a valid point. Nevertheless there is an massive pc agenda out there these days. 

I'm totally fine to ban for example swastikas on the aircraft because they are referring to mass genocide and maybe the darkest chapter in mankinds history. 

But let us not derail the threat into politics. :)

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Back on topic. Icing was removed long ago, it wasn't implemented correctly. 

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35 minutes ago, Blooddawn1942 said:

So I'm looking forward to discover it. I guess, I know it when I see it? :)

Hehe no doubt it'll get posted soon enough. People these days feel the need to share everything instantly.

 

Daz

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I also find the map a bit too bright and yellowish, so it is hard to know when you are rolling on the ground...I can not see any texture clearly. I also think the maps needs more diversity and colour variation. I am sure Team Fusion will keep on working improving it.

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6 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

So, I'm still overwhelmed enough by colour saturation that I've not moved on to your concerns. Anyway: Does any computer game do justice to the real natural world? No. Could this sim do better at capturing minor variations in textures and bump-map contours? Of course. Is it quite enjoyable in its current state? Yes.

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head - the bump mapping is either missing or lacking in some way.  The ground just seems completely devoid of 'texture' and appears completely smooth - hence my Longbow 2 reference.  I also think it needs more small details: rocks, scrub etc.  What bushes are present just don't seem to achieve this effect and look they have been borrowed from CFS3.

 

In 9 days time I will be firing up FS2020 and one of the first areas I will be visiting will be the Western Desert.  I'll be very interested to see what it looks like in real life - well as close to real life as I care to get to the Libyan Desert.  

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We will be going to 4k textures on tiles outside of the city/built up areas... these are 4k already.

 

We will also probably be adding some variation as well as more grass/scrub and potentially small rocks.

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Posted (edited)

Hopefully 4k textures will help. Seems some are conflating monotonous terrain with "featureless" terrain. That's not even touching on the issue of seasonal variations in terrain detail. I am sure that many of us have flown over desert terrain. It is certainly not "featureless".

Edited by Dagwoodyt

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58 minutes ago, Buzzsaw said:

We will be going to 4k textures on tiles outside of the city/built up areas... these are 4k already.

 

We will also probably be adding some variation as well as more grass/scrub and potentially small rocks.

Great news!!

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10 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

We will be going to 4k textures on tiles outside of the city/built up areas... these are 4k already.

 

We will also probably be adding some variation as well as more grass/scrub and potentially small rocks.

We know you will. Just a bit tweaking here and there and the whole thing will be great. Already a great job.

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15 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

We will be going to 4k textures on tiles outside of the city/built up areas... these are 4k already.

 

We will also probably be adding some variation as well as more grass/scrub and potentially small rocks.

 

I've noticed that the textures seem a lot more detailed when I've landed. However, I'm still barely able to make them out.

 

New theory: The textures lack sufficient internal contrast to show up well on some monitors and at some resolutions.

 

I suspect that this might be due to having a fairly small team, and thus a fairly limited testing ability - it is easy to release a product which overlooks some monitors or GPUs. I know for me, the terrain seems very colour saturated, but also very bright - to the point where I often can't see the smaller texture details. This could possibly be improved by increasing the texture's colour contrast, the brightness contrast/gamma, or both.

 

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1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

 

I've noticed that the textures seem a lot more detailed when I've landed. However, I'm still barely able to make them out.

 

New theory: The textures lack sufficient internal contrast to show up well on some monitors and at some resolutions.

 

I suspect that this might be due to having a fairly small team, and thus a fairly limited testing ability - it is easy to release a product which overlooks some monitors or GPUs. I know for me, the terrain seems very colour saturated, but also very bright - to the point where I often can't see the smaller texture details. This could possibly be improved by increasing the texture's colour contrast, the brightness contrast/gamma, or both.

 

 

Did you try at some different moment of the day?

Early morning/evening?

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...and the textures seem a lot more detailed at ground because the "detail texture" is enabled which creates more depth at very low/ground altitude.

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1 hour ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

 

Did you try at some different moment of the day?

Early morning/evening?

 

I'll do some tests! Good idea! It'll help clarify whether I'm on to something.

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"Golden Hour" flights help enhance terrain contours somewhat. One thing I notice is that the hills surrounding several remote airstrips appear very indistinct. The effect looks extremely odd when you consider that terrain elevations should  appear at least as sharply defined as the terrain below.

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So, here is another thought: What if the problem is partly that the textures are too detailed?

 

Hear me out! In trying to get the terrain modeled accurately the artists have produced very detailed textures to capture the small rocks and wind patterns on the sand. However, when flying at medium altitude this is harder to see (only so much can be in 1080p).

 

More importantly perhaps - when the game isn't paused - the refresh rate of 60fps isn't enough to show the crisp detail and there is a blurring effect where it is hard to make out the texture details. When paused (and at a fairly low altitude) one can easily see that the textures are very detailed and vary somewhat between terrain types:

Desktop_2020_08_09_17_58_55_639.thumb.jpg.e39d9fed18782549320344d57a928386.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Avimimus said:

So, here is another thought: What if the problem is partly that the textures are too detailed?

 

Hear me out! In trying to get the terrain modeled accurately the artists have produced very detailed textures to capture the small rocks and wind patterns on the sand. However, when flying at medium altitude this is harder to see (only so much can be in 1080p).

 

More importantly perhaps - when the game isn't paused - the refresh rate of 60fps isn't enough to show the crisp detail and there is a blurring effect where it is hard to make out the texture details. When paused (and at a fairly low altitude) one can easily see that the textures are very detailed and vary somewhat between terrain types:

Desktop_2020_08_09_17_58_55_639.thumb.jpg.e39d9fed18782549320344d57a928386.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

Flying with a slight zoom-in level the terrain details become much clearer - as it does on the Cliffs map. Of course that's a narrower field of view which is not ideal !

 

Daz

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Posted (edited)

opinion

you might find the old IL2 with the North Africa mod map add on from SAS for the 412.2m version of the game much more detailed and complete .

Edited by adler_1

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16 minutes ago, adler_1 said:

opinion

you might find the old IL2 with the North Africa mod map add on from SAS for the 412.2m version of the game much more detailed and complete .

Why don't you show some details from that map?

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here are some of my old templates and skins screen shots i found from that map , the time is midday and 4 pm .

 

 

 

 

 

 

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