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EDIT: Late Spitfires with C and E wings carried 140 rounds per gun


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We can see here that Spitfires with the "E" wing armament configuration carry "Approx 135" rounds per gun in their Hispano ammunition bays:

 

20mm-5in-gun-installation.jpg

 

This is proven by the Operational Records Booklet of No 130 Squadron, the month after their Spitfire XIVs were converted from C wing to E wing armament:

 

EDIT: New sources below, the most common ammo load for Spitfire IXc, IXe and XIVc, XIVe was 140 rounds per gun in Hispano cannons and 500 rounds of .50cal MG.

 

Here is the current Spitfire Armament:

 

image.png.1e1f6ff64bd7281aeb1f201630b94263.png

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

41 Squadron carried 560 rounds (280 per plane, 140 per gun) on 17th October 1944 (SPITFIRE XIVe)

 

1944-10-Load.thumb.jpg.494904fd04116960ff206a050c3aadf7.jpg

 

This same load is repeated for all of these dates in their squadron.

 

FURTHER EDIT:

 

Before 41sqn converted to .50cal, they were using 140 rounds per gun alongside their .303s. This is very important for the upcoming Spitfire XIVc.

 

1944-09-Load.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Talon_
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1 hour ago, Fritz_X said:

Someone mentioned this in another thread about one or two months ago.

 

But nowhere as detailed as you did. Nice work, much appreciated.

 

It's obvious that while the wing was designed to contain 120 rounds minimum, the actual load flown in real life missions was enough to fill the box rather than reach minimum capacity. If we're going to simulate real life we need to be able to do the same.

 

"Realism" is not simulating planes at exactly the limits of the schematics, but simulating them as they were actually used.

 

I'm trying to get access to more ORBs and then I will update with more sources.

Edited by Talon_
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The problem was supposed to be solved by the super-secret X-wing Spitfire with 12 photon-torpedo machine-guns.

A prototype was lost during a test-flight on the Kessel-Run and the war ended before the project could reach fruition.

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12 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

It's obvious that while the wing was designed to contain 120 rounds minimum, the actual load flown in real life missions was enough to fill the box rather than reach minimum capacity. If we're going to simulate real life we need to be able to do the same.

 

"Realism" is not simulating planes at exactly the limits of the schematics, but simulating them as they were actually used.

 

I'm trying to get access to more ORBs and then I will update with more sources.

Good catch: there was a distinct difference between the amount of ammunition carried on operations by 130 Sqn. Spitfire XIVs with the C wings versus the E.

Also note that in September '44, 130 Sqn was still part of the ADGB, whereas by October they had joined 2 TAF

 September '44: 20mm and .303

754917733_130SqnORBDec44-Jul4544.thumb.jpg.4abbc9c658cecc530cc4f440ef28fa2c.jpg

November and December 1944: continuing from October 20mm & .50

2048894854_130SqnORBDec44-Jul4550.thumb.jpg.f6f9307a9c1024cf36171720aecb2820.jpg1678756731_130SqnORBDec44-Jul4553.thumb.jpg.7d59743d7791ae5bf471aacac38e8182.jpg

 

Finding ORBs that also include

Edited by NZTyphoon
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13 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

 

Good catch: there was a distinct difference between the amount of ammunition carried on operations by 130 Sqn. Spitfire XIVs with the C wings versus the E:

 September '44: 20mm and .303

754917733_130SqnORBDec44-Jul4544.thumb.jpg.4abbc9c658cecc530cc4f440ef28fa2c.jpg

November and December 1944: continuing from October 20mm & .50

2048894854_130SqnORBDec44-Jul4550.thumb.jpg.f6f9307a9c1024cf36171720aecb2820.jpg1678756731_130SqnORBDec44-Jul4553.thumb.jpg.7d59743d7791ae5bf471aacac38e8182.jpg

 

 

 

 

September / C wing: Hard to read, looks like 120 rounds per gun (at the same time that 41 Sqn were carrying 140 rounds per gun in their C wing). 

7th November / E wing:  130 rounds per gun

30th December / E wing: 135 rounds per gun

 

@NZTyphoon do you have any Spit IX ORBs?

Edited by Talon_
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29 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

 

September / C wing: Hard to read, looks like 120 rounds per gun (at the same time that 41 Sqn were carrying 140 rounds per gun in their C wing). 

7th November / E wing:  130 rounds per gun

30th December / E wing: 135 rounds per gun

 

@NZTyphoon do you have any Spit IX ORBs?

 

I have some for Spitfire IXs, but none of them as yet include ammunition expenditure forms, because they aren't always included in the National Archives files. To explain, there were two different ORBs filed by RAF units:

The Summary of Operations books were usually similar to diary entries, detailing the day to day activities of the unit. These SoEs varied in the amount of detail that was included. The SoEs were also more likely to include the expenditure forms - but that seems to depend on how complete the records were and whether or not the NA staff scanned them into the system. Here's the 130 Sqn SoE entry for early October 1944:

 

1568456587_130SqnSoEMay-September194422.thumb.jpg.52adfcff46f90295bc0b6952b8ad454b.jpg

 

 

The Record of Operations books often listed the aircraft used on each operation; depending on the squadron, they could show pilot, serial number and sometimes the code letter. Again, the amount of detail included varied from unit to unit. Here's the RoE 130 Sqn October 2 and 3 1944:

90845501_130SqnORBOct442.thumb.jpg.e208752154b360020a539510b19523b7.jpg1042767641_130SqnORBOct443.thumb.jpg.39d0604cce8974fbcc09085b52ffb8f7.jpg

 

Edited by NZTyphoon
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5 minutes ago, NZTyphoon said:

I have some for Spitfire IXs, but none of them as yet include ammunition expenditure forms, because they aren't always included in the National Archives files.

 

I think 126/127 Wings (the Canadians) are quite well documented - do you have either?

 

image.png.949dc5080854c69edc4a3929bba6d1ed.png

Edited by Talon_
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16 minutes ago, Talon_ said:

 

I think 126/127 Sqns (the Canadians) are quite well documented - do you have either?

You must mean 126 & 127 Wings. I have some 402 and 421 Sqn material, none of which include ammunition expenditure forms. It does, however, remind me that 421(RCAF) Squadron started using 150 octane fuel in February 1945:

 

181843775_421(RCAF)SqnSoEFebruary19442a.thumb.jpg.608676df4813f96fd57f09747b2aa351.jpg

 

I have found that using the following search terms are useful when digging through the National Archives: the ORBs are filed under Air 27; the star represents a squadron number, followed by a full stop then the type of ORB:

air 27: squadron number:   *  . summary of events

air 27: squadron number:  *  . record of events

Edited by NZTyphoon
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1 hour ago, NZTyphoon said:

You must mean 126 & 127 Wings. I have some 402 and 421 Sqn material, none of which include ammunition expenditure forms. It does, however, remind me that 421(RCAF) Squadron started using 150 octane fuel in February 1945:

 

181843775_421(RCAF)SqnSoEFebruary19442a.thumb.jpg.608676df4813f96fd57f09747b2aa351.jpg

 

I have found that using the following search terms are useful when digging through the National Archives: the ORBs are filed under Air 27; the star represents a squadron number, followed by a full stop then the type of ORB:

air 27: squadron number:   *  . summary of events

air 27: squadron number:  *  . record of events

 

EDIT: Source found. 331 Squadron, Spitfire IXe carrying 280 rounds (140 per gun) and 500 rounds of .50cal lost in January 1945:

 

image.thumb.png.5d4dfc7a40694fec83e2179d50284fdf.png

 

July 1944, one month after D-Day, 331 carries 140 rounds per gun into battle in Spitfire IXc wings:

 

tncYZVx.png

 

November 1944, 560 rounds shared between two planes again:

 

 image.thumb.png.35f423db0e9e4f56fc038edff01d93f6.png

 

 

Edited by Talon_
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332 Sqn liked to load 288 rounds per plane, or 144 rounds per gun, in their C wing Spits.

 

oYoSq1k.png

 

July

 

puYRqIy.png

 

329 Squadron lost a Spitfire carrying 280 rounds of Hispano and 500 rounds of .50 in both November and December 1944:

 

5gGhdCI.png

 

qSUqv2U.png

 

When 12 planes flew, they flew with 3360 rounds of Hispano, or 140 rounds per gun:

 

K2f1UIR.png

 

 

Edited by Talon_
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11 minutes ago, 41Sqn_Skipper said:

 

@=FB=VikS needs to read this.

 

Having now scoured the National Archives all morning for squadron appendices and supplementals, I have hard data for 4 total squadrons of Spitfire IXc/e. I was unable to find expenditure reports for any other squadrons. That data is here:

 

image.png.20745ed35a9a411cca99922caeef925e.png

 

Including data from the OP regarding 41 and 130 Sqns Spit XIVc/e, we can see that 140 rounds per gun is really the minimum allowable for a Spitfire XIVc, XIVe, IXc or IXe in 1944/1945, with overload up to 150 rounds per gun in some cases being historical.

 

I could find no further information, and most importantly no data suggesting that Spitfire IXc/e or XIVc/e ever flew with only 120rpg.

Edited by Talon_
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  • 3 months later...
On 7/27/2020 at 11:00 PM, =FB=VikS said:

 

yup, i see ;)

 

PS: imho its the gun boxes + sleeve - so it seems that some extra 20 rounds from the box to the gun chamber.

 

I guess you guys didn't get time to tweak the value for this patch either ;) do you think we might see the correct values when the Spitfire XIV arrives? :) 

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It would be great to see more historical ammunition value VikS.  Thank you in anticipation.

 

I understand from a post by Jason that some members of your team have not been well and I know that times are difficult under the current virus restriction.  Hope you are well and thank you for your work with IL-2 GB.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

Edited by ACG_Talisman
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  • 3 months later...

Hi Folks,

 

I have just noticed that this combat report shows 150 rounds per cannon with 76 rounds S.A.P.I. and 74 rounds H.E.I. per gun for the Spitfire XIV on 7th March 1944.  This armament information is near the bottom of the report just above the signatures.

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/610_Harding_7march44.pdf

 

Can you action this for the upcoming Spitfire XIV =FB=VikS?

 

Happy landings,

 

Talisman

Edited by ACG_Talisman
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