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No.54_Reddog

AI - the elephant in the room?

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I'm surprised that there hasn't been much said or shown on the AI which is supposed to have been improved but all we have seen still shows AI flying with full deflected rudder...

 

Given the release is 2 weeks or so away I'd have thought that addressing one of the longest running concerns for SP and MP alike would have been something you'd want to do.

 

Can we get some clarity on what has been fixed, improved, addressed or introduced?

 

Specifically but not limited to;

- AI commands not working correctly/at all

- AI latching onto the first aircraft their group sees and ignoring all other enemy.

- AI being incredibly bad at ammo conservation.

- AI inability to land and taxi on some airfields

- AI warping through objects when taxiing

- AI going into "stupid mode" and flying home with no reaction to enemy.

- AI bombers inability to fly in formation at times and switching to "dogfight mode"

- missing ability to set AI to bomb in series/salvo mode in the editor.

- AI faculty for manoeuvre killing themselves.

 

These are just some of the issues that have been raised or known about by the community for years. Are any of them addressed at all?

 

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All of these elements have been looked at and have been substantially modified for TOBRUK.

 

Many of these issues are related to the mission builder selecting poor quality AI.

 

Regarding AI using rudder deflection in turns, this is simply a graphics convention rather than an actual use within the physics engine.

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It would be nice if the 5.0 release comes with a detailed changelog detailing all the updates. Personally my biggest pet peeve with the AI is that they bail out immediately when their plane is on fire even if it's only a control surface fire and judging from the latest beta videos this has not been fixed.

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16 hours ago, Buzzsaw said:

 

All of these elements have been looked at and have been substantially modified for TOBRUK.

 

Many of these issues are related to the mission builder selecting poor quality AI.

 

Regarding AI using rudder deflection in turns, this is simply a graphics convention rather than an actual use within the physics engine.

 

That all these elements have been substantially modified for Tobruk is heartening but then I can't quite understand your second point if they relate to poor AI settings then why would they have needed modification?

 

SoW experienced all of those issues and more, and we used pretty high individual skill settings from the beginning. I guess we will just have to wait 2 weeks but again it seems strange to not showcase something you've improved before release.

 

I do hope that there is an exhaustive and comprehensive changelog as Flare says. It's such a shame that the bug tracker was never used properly as it could have formed the basis for such feedback to the community.

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The Ai is a big addition to this update and it would be really great to see some videos showing more impressive Ai in action. 

 

The recent video release by wolfpack345 didn't show any Ai changes from the normal. Aircraft Ju-88 and Ju-87 flying dead level, no avoiding manoeuvres, just waiting to die. 

 

Single Player need the Ai to be competitive and with the SP base being 4x larger than online multilplayer Ai is essential for a good player experience. Appreciate the reply about Mission Building but could TFS showcase anything of the improved Ai in action with a Mission created by TFS to specifically show the work done? 

Final question about the Ai, would it be possible to show which Radio Commands now work from the Tab menu? 

Cheers, Mysticpuma. 

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20 hours ago, Mysticpuma said:

The Ai is a big addition to this update and it would be really great to see some videos showing more impressive Ai in action. 

 

The recent video release by wolfpack345 didn't show any Ai changes from the normal. Aircraft Ju-88 and Ju-87 flying dead level, no avoiding manoeuvres, just waiting to die. 

 

Single Player need the Ai to be competitive and with the SP base being 4x larger than online multilplayer Ai is essential for a good player experience. Appreciate the reply about Mission Building but could TFS showcase anything of the improved Ai in action with a Mission created by TFS to specifically show the work done? 

Final question about the Ai, would it be possible to show which Radio Commands now work from the Tab menu? 

Cheers, Mysticpuma. 

The heavy emphasis on adding new "stuff" and FX seems a "tell" that many AI "improvements" might prove to be indiscernible. Blitz 5.0 should help sort out how much time has been spent on deficiencies of the SP game. I am hoping for the best, but expecting to be underwhelmed.

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Well fortunately buying the game through steam allows for a refund if not happy although I'm not sure if the same can be said for buying through 1c although i did ask the question.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, No.54_Reddog said:

Well fortunately buying the game through steam allows for a refund if not happy although I'm not sure if the same can be said for buying through 1c although i did ask the question.

 

 

If I were to buy on Steam I would just consider my money “gone” upon purchase. There is no way to evaluate a complex sim during the trial period provided. That is why I am thankful that I have Blitz. If, as I suspect, Blitz 5.0 GUI and AI are negligibly improved from 4.57.3 then I will have a reliable way to predict playability of DW. Imagine what it would be like to have to buy both Blitz and DW in order to make an evaluation. 

Edited by Dagwoodyt

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7 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

If I were to buy on Steam I would just consider my money “gone” upon purchase. There is no way to evaluate a complex sim during the trial period provided. That is why I am thankful that I have Blitz. If, as I suspect, Blitz 5.0 GUI and AI are negligibly improved from 4.57.3 then I will have a reliable way to predict playability of DW. Imagine what it would be like to have to buy both Blitz and DW in order to make an evaluation. 

Evaluate from scratch with no prior experience? I'd agree. Test specific things based on experience from the 1,300+ hours I've got in the game ... yeah, i think I'll be able to tell the difference and see what's been updated.

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Less than a week to release and still no sign of the AI improvements. You'd think they'd want to shout about them from the rooftops! But no. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Odd considering it's one of the biggest disappointments/complaint areas of the game. But we did get a video showcasing the Anti tank mines - an utterly pointless and unasked for addition to a flight sim.

 

I think you're probably on the right track Dagwoodyt. Upgrade Blitz for free and see what's been changed, then pick up Tobruk in the inevitable sale. I've waited this long, I guess I can wait a bit longer.

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Posted (edited)

Complaining about the AI in CloD.. like...have you not played BoX?

 

Although I must admit that 1946 still has the best AI yet.

Edited by Arthur-A
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Both most vocal guys in this thread own Blitz. What's the hurry then? The AI changes, whatever they are, are going to be core-game related and thus implemented in the Blitz as well. You guys have a whole week after release to test and decide if 15% discount for Tobruk is worth it at this stage or not.

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S! 

 

For me AI is just a necessary evil. It never works as we might want it to. Either it is a deadeyejoe shooting you from impossible angles between the eyes with supernatural flying skills or the crosseyed el retardo shooting at anything moving and missing while wobbling across the sky.

 

Making a good one is hard eating precious resources and I do not see a good one coming anytime soon, before devs really start to code for multiple cores instead of a single core choked to death, requiring crapton of GHz to run.

 

U Boat Simulator seems to be one of first games to really be made from ground up to take advantage of all the CPU cores/threads we have today, at least what their video showed. I hope this trend will take over. 

 

TL;DR AI is not a game breaker for me, CloD has so much more done right. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/24/2020 at 6:17 PM, No.54_Reddog said:

- AI being incredibly bad at ammo conservation.

 

This is probably realistic... IMHO, pilots should expend their ammunition prematurely (often out of range), should often get separated part-way through the flight, and should disengage earlier...

 

The idea that every dogfight was persistent (rather than that being a rare occurrence), that every pilot was good at maximizing their kills in a single mission, the idea that pilots were perfect at keeping track of the location of an enemy aircraft (rather than losing track of it after a pass, panicking and returning to base)... is a result of how we play the sim...

 

In fact, I wonder if 'spotting' in Great Battles isn't really the problem people say it is... rather it is the AI's lack of a similar difficulty in spotting which makes us feel like there is something wrong with our monitors.

 

I would really love it if Cliffs/Tobruk had a 'realistic' AI setting that caused them to have a random chance to disengage after every pass :)

Edited by Avimimus
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LLv34_Flanker said:

S! 

 

For me AI is just a necessary evil. It never works as we might want it to. Either it is a deadeyejoe shooting you from impossible angles between the eyes with supernatural flying skills or the crosseyed el retardo shooting at anything moving and missing while wobbling across the sky.

 

Making a good one is hard eating precious resources and I do not see a good one coming anytime soon, before devs really start to code for multiple cores instead of a single core choked to death, requiring crapton of GHz to run.

 

U Boat Simulator seems to be one of first games to really be made from ground up to take advantage of all the CPU cores/threads we have today, at least what their video showed. I hope this trend will take over. 

 

TL;DR AI is not a game breaker for me, CloD has so much more done right. 

 

 

If the implication is that Blitz/DW is an online game with some obligatory SP trappings I cannot argue against that POV.

Edited by Dagwoodyt
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6 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

This is probably realistic... IMHO, pilots should expend their ammunition prematurely (often out of range), should often get separated part-way through the flight, and should disengage earlier...

 

The idea that every dogfight was persistent (rather than that being a rare occurrence), that every pilot was good at maximizing their kills in a single mission, the idea that pilots were perfect at keeping track of the location of an enemy aircraft (rather than losing track of it after a pass, panicking and returning to base)... is a result of how we play the sim...

 

In fact, I wonder if 'spotting' in Great Battles isn't really the problem people say it is... rather it is the AI's lack of a similar difficulty in spotting which makes us feel like there is something wrong with our monitors.

 

I would really love it if Cliffs/Tobruk had a 'realistic' AI setting that caused them to have a random chance to disengage after every pass :)

 

No one is saying AI should be a terminator. There should be a spread of abilities and capabilities. Having said that, if you want realistic AI (as in with the abilities of an average WW2 pilot), then I assume you're also flying with realistic experience and training or do you have thousands of hours in game, experience gained from hundreds or more deaths from which you magically resurrected unlike the guys who did it for real?

 

Look. I'm not trying to have a pissing contest with you. At the end of the day we should be able to have whatever we are both looking for from the game if the AI is adaptable and flexible. All I'm saying is there are some pretty well evidenced and documented flaws with the AI and perhaps TF could have looked at them.

 

15 hours ago, Arthur-A said:

Complaining about the AI in CloD.. like...have you not played BoX?

 

Although I must admit that 1946 still has the best AI yet.

 

No, not much actually. I probably played about 20hrs max in it.

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I think it is noteworthy that my comment is only on one of your many points - and that my comment is also suggesting an area where they AI could be improved ...so it would seem reasonable to guess that I essentially agree with you. I might have slightly different priorities when it comes to AI improvements - in terms of caring about being able to have some AI over-expend ammunition and/or disengage for other reasons! But it isn't like I'm disagreeing with your basic premise.

 

That said - it is worth pointing out that AI is one of the hardest (if not the hardest) area in programming... and we must be patient and constructive in our criticisms as some behaviours may be harder to replicate than others... especially reliably in a situation where it has to be done real time and take into account things like complex physics and flight models.

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I know you weren't disagreeing entirely, as far as I can tell what you're asking for is already implemented!

 

Absolutely agree with you, it's not simple and I guess if every clown could do it then we wouldn't have this problem :).

 

It's a shame that they couldn't get Buddye who I recall was approached some time ago and who wouldn't work without the source code which TF didn't have at the time. Did anyone get back to him after the source code was made available and see if he was still interested? I imagine that if he'd signed up in 2016/17 then we might have been seeing some sign of improvement in the videos.

 

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Posted (edited)

AI is an important feature for DWT. Singeplayer must be always robust in a flight, but in this case it must be a good feature for good sales. Fingers crossed.

Edited by LF_Gallahad

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Posted (edited)

I put together a test mission I plan to use for Blitz 5.0. In Blitz 4.57.3 if I put 109 E-1 AI close to its' base and give it a 90% fuel load the AI will make several initial attack passes at me then  climb to altitude near 20k ft. If the AI does not have a shooting solution early on it may just climb away. The AI, after getting to altitude, then dives toward base. If I attempt to interdict the AI's descent toward its' base the AI will evade my fire but will not return fire or attempt to get to my six. The AI will force me to scissor but will not fire even if I drift in front of it while scissoring. With my chosen settings the AI does not waste its' ammo. In effect the AI just becomes a target drone. That AI behavior makes for a disappointing fight. It will be interesting to see if anything changes in Blitz 5.0.

Blitz AI Test 01.jpg

Blitz AI Test 02.jpg

Edited by Dagwoodyt

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On 7/25/2020 at 12:37 PM, Mysticpuma said:

The recent video release by wolfpack345 didn't show any Ai changes from the normal. Aircraft Ju-88 and Ju-87 flying dead level, no avoiding manoeuvres, just waiting to die. 

 

Better leave in this way, Bombers done "dogfight" like in IL-2:GB QMB is weird.

In Blitz bombers weave up and down when you enter in convergence range, what is sufficient for difficult/ruim attacker aim.

Keep formation is their best defense, including  IRL Japanese bomber pilots could face martial court if leave formation.

 

RAF heavies in night bombing flew individually, so need use in maneuvers for avoid night fighters attacks.

3 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

I put together a test mission I plan to use for Blitz 5.0. 

 

 

Can you attach the .mis code of this mission?

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1 hour ago, Sokol1 said:

 

Better leave in this way, Bombers done "dogfight" like in IL-2:GB QMB is weird.

In Blitz bombers weave up and down when you enter in convergence range, what is sufficient for difficult/ruim attacker aim.

Keep formation is their best defense, including  IRL Japanese bomber pilots could face martial court if leave formation.

 

RAF heavies in night bombing flew individually, so need use in maneuvers for avoid night fighters attacks.

 

Can you attach the .mis code of this mission?

[PARTS]
  core.100
  bob.100
[MAIN]
  MAP Land$English_Channel_1940_Winter
  BattleArea 8500 8500 500000 500000 20000
  TIME 14.0000003390014
  WeatherIndex 0
  CloudsHeight 1000
  BreezeActivity 10
  ThermalActivity 10
  player BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.000
[GlobalWind_0]
  Power 3.000 0.000 0.000
  BottomBound 0.00
  TopBound 1500.00
  GustPower 0
  GustAngle 45
[splines]
[AirGroups]
  BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01
  BoB_LW_LG2_I.21
[BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01]
  Flight0  1
  Class Aircraft.SpitfireMkI_100oct
  Formation VIC3
  CallSign 26
  Fuel 70
  Weapons 1
  Belt _Gun03 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
  Belt _Gun00 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 5 9 2 11 2 2 2 2
  Belt _Gun01 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 11 11 Residual 1 ResidueBelt 5
  Belt _Gun02 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 2 11 12 2 2 2 2
  Belt _Gun05 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 2 2 2 11
  Belt _Gun04 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 10 5
  Skill 0.8 0.6 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.6 0.5
  Aging 5
  Serial0 005
[BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01_Way]
  NORMFLY 154290.06 58693.29 100.00 250.00
  NORMFLY 155919.01 65256.53 100.00 250.00
[BoB_LW_LG2_I.21]
  Flight0  1
  Class Aircraft.Bf-109E-1
  Formation FINGERFOUR
  CallSign 30
  Fuel 90
  Weapons 1 1
  Skill 1 0.63 1 1 0.53 1 1 0.53
[BoB_LW_LG2_I.21_Way]
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 155942.89 65351.32 100.00 200.00
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 151376.64 46923.37 500.00 569.10
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 177821.45 65818.86 3000.00 400.00
  LANDING 157904.57 58513.79 0.00 160.00
[CustomChiefs]
[Stationary]
[Buildings]
[BuildingsLinks]

 

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Posted (edited)

Dagwoodty

 

I play your mission and seem the save behavior you describe.

 

Did some changes that I think improve a bit, maybe just placebo.

 

- Your waypoint # 3, had a huge difference in altitude relative to # 2 - climb from 500 to 3000 meters, forcing Bf 109 climb to much.

 

- Set initial waypoint for  attack fighter

 

- In waypoint's properties use the SET button and place the target circle with a green line over the enemy fighter waypoint.

 

https://i.postimg.cc/26XQ8fjV/CLOD-FMB-waypoint-SET.jpg

 

This change waypoint code from this:

 

 AATTACK_FIGHTERS 155942.89 65351.32 100.00 200.00 

 

To:

 

 AATTACK_FIGHTERS 155942.89 65351.32 100.00 200.00 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 1

 

After this changes seems that BF 109 became more aggressive, he attack in the initial merge, before only after the merge.

But he definitively refuse play "Merry go round", just take altitude, sometimes a Km or two, dive and make an attack, then climb again, rinse, and repeat.

 

When he pass the waypoint number 3 - so their next is landing,  stop fight, just make defensive maneuvers if you close their six, why maybe set one last waypoint "attack fighters" just a KM or less than landing may help, AI will have less flight time in "dumb mode".

 

Seems that triggers circles in CloD code has little radius...

 

Curious is if you leave the plane (Spit) for AI control, Bf 109 behavior is different, with more willing to fight.

 

Edited by Sokol1

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14 hours ago, No.54_Reddog said:

It's a shame that they couldn't get Buddye who I recall was approached some time ago and who wouldn't work without the source code which TF didn't have at the time. Did anyone get back to him after the source code was made available and see if he was still interested? I imagine that if he'd signed up in 2016/17 then we might have been seeing some sign of improvement in the videos.

 

God I hope he got back on board.  His AI work in 1946 is fantastic.  The variety of moves and tactical coordination between pairs is amazing to watch.

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Think this includes some suggested changes. May take a bit of time to assess if much difference in AI behavior. Have not seen any major differences thus far.

 

[PARTS]
  core.100
  bob.100
[MAIN]
  MAP Land$English_Channel_1940_Winter
  BattleArea 8500 8500 500000 500000 20000
  TIME 14.0000003390014
  WeatherIndex 0
  CloudsHeight 1000
  BreezeActivity 10
  ThermalActivity 10
  player BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.000
[GlobalWind_0]
  Power 3.000 0.000 0.000
  BottomBound 0.00
  TopBound 1500.00
  GustPower 0
  GustAngle 45
[splines]
[AirGroups]
  BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01
  BoB_LW_LG2_I.21
[BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01]
  Flight0  1
  Class Aircraft.SpitfireMkI_100oct
  Formation VIC3
  CallSign 26
  Fuel 70
  Weapons 1
  Belt _Gun03 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
  Belt _Gun00 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 5 9 2 11 2 2 2 2
  Belt _Gun01 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 11 11 Residual 1 ResidueBelt 5
  Belt _Gun02 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 2 11 12 2 2 2 2
  Belt _Gun05 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 2 2 2 11
  Belt _Gun04 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 10 5
  Skill 0.8 0.6 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.6 0.5
  Aging 5
  Serial0 005
[BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01_Way]
  NORMFLY 154290.06 58693.29 100.00 250.00
  NORMFLY 155919.42 65256.94 100.00 250.00
[BoB_LW_LG2_I.21]
  Flight0  1
  Class Aircraft.Bf-109E-1
  Formation FINGERFOUR
  CallSign 30
  Fuel 90
  Weapons 1 1
  Skill 1 0.63 1 1 0.53 1 1 0.53
[BoB_LW_LG2_I.21_Way]
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 155942.68 65351.74 100.00 200.00 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 1
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 151376.64 46923.37 500.00 569.10 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 0
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 177821.45 65818.86 2000.00 400.00 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 0
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 162511.08 60005.30 1000.00 360.00 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 0
  LANDING 157860.39 58498.22 0.00 220.00
[CustomChiefs]
[Stationary]
[Buildings]
[BuildingsLinks]

 

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Posted (edited)

This is the best Ai I have ever fought against - Battle of Britain: Wings of Victory II which was Ai coded by Buddeye. Never have I fought against Ai that used rolling scissors and secondly in the finale of this video I created in 2007 (during the guncam footage), I am chasing a damaged 109 low on the deck. The Ai tries to manoeuvre away but due to the damage it actually stalls into the deck....incredibly clever programming!

 

Here's the video showing the Ai in action, guncam should be where the video starts as this shows most of the Ai trying to get away, if not, skip to the 7m 20s mark,   9m 10s mark is the damaged Ai flat stall into the ground:

 

 

Edited by Mysticpuma
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10 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Fuel 70
  Weapons 1
  Belt _Gun03 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9
  Belt _Gun00 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 5 9 2 11 2 2 2 2
  Belt _Gun01 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 11 11 Residual 1 ResidueBelt 5
  Belt _Gun02 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 2 11 12 2 2 2 2
  Belt _Gun05 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 2 2 2 11
  Belt _Gun04 Gun.Browning303MkII MainBelt 2 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 10 5
  Skill 0.8 0.6 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.6 0.5
  Aging 5
  Serial0 005

Whilst not related to your problems, very odd belting selection you have here. Not even sure that two outer right wing guns are even loaded, plus from personal viewpoint lots of pretty ineffective ball(2) at least for AA role.

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12 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Have not seen any major differences thus far.

 

De facto CloD AI, specially in 1x1 scenery, is far away from have "the flavors of an fast-food dogfight" that we are used to in other games. 😜

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

Whilst not related to your problems, very odd belting selection you have here. Not even sure that two outer right wing guns are even loaded, plus from personal viewpoint lots of pretty ineffective ball(2) at least for AA role.

I am also puzzled by only six MG's showing up in the mis. code. All 8 are loaded in the Loadout screen. Loadings choice has quite a bit of AP and incendiary and a few "Observer" rounds but that is of least concern to me ATM. Major problem is with edited missions crashing frequently so I cannot readily test them to completion.

8 minutes ago, Sokol1 said:

 

De facto CloD AI, specially in 1x1 scenery, is far away from have "the flavors of an fast-food dogfight" that we are used to in other games. 😜

Yes, seems there is little flexibility provided by the FMB. FMB instructions to AI seem merely a "wish list". One thing I am noting is that "Pseudo" screen mode is useful for me in that when missions crash I can easily call up Task Manager to close the Blitz launcher. When crashing in "Full Screen" mode I am usually forced to sign out of Win10. If I do that I then have to restart Steam and TIR. BTW in some instances the Set Target circle you brought to my attention will not center over the target I select, but only to right or left of the intended target. Is there a way to place the circle exactly where I need it to be? Thanks again.

Edited by Dagwoodyt

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6 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

One thing I am noting is that "Pseudo" screen mode is useful for me in that when missions crash I can easily call up Task Manager to close the Blitz launcher. 

 

Curious is that I have a single mission with scripts, hundred of objects, AA, ships, vehicles, but just four planes, and I can play this over and over, even from inside FMB.

 

But this mission you set with just 2 planes and few waypoint's sometimes freeze and crash for desktop, when I am playing, but run OK if I leave for AI control.

 

I think the position of target circle don't matter since in mission code don't have position numbers, just the target.

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20 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Think this includes some suggested changes. May take a bit of time to assess if much difference in AI behavior. Have not seen any major differences thus far.

Ran this same mission, crashes my machine 2 times out of 3. Ran 10 of mine, most more complex or busier but no problems. Also once seemed to muck my TiR up, also never had happen except through external light sources in living room, but game crashed seconds later so it may not have had time to fix itself. and be red herring.

Something is very off/strange with it. I will try editting it some next few days see if I can determine what is odd.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

Whilst not related to your problems, very odd belting selection you have here. Not even sure that two outer right wing guns are even loaded, plus from personal viewpoint lots of pretty ineffective ball(2) at least for AA role.

Good point. I compared this to other MIS. files and those I looked at did not have those code lines for each belt. I deleted them and saved the mission under another name and it ran, but still crashed several times although seemed to run longer before crashing. At any rate the lines relating to the six(?) belts are not needed (on  MY install) and I have no idea how they got there :)

 

[PARTS]
  core.100
  bob.100
[MAIN]
  MAP Land$English_Channel_1940_Winter
  BattleArea 8500 8500 500000 500000 20000
  TIME 14.0000003390014
  WeatherIndex 0
  CloudsHeight 1000
  BreezeActivity 10
  ThermalActivity 10
  player BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.000
[GlobalWind_0]
  Power 3.000 0.000 0.000
  BottomBound 0.00
  TopBound 1500.00
  GustPower 0
  GustAngle 45
[splines]
[AirGroups]
  BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01
  BoB_LW_LG2_I.21
[BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01]
  Flight0  1
  Class Aircraft.SpitfireMkI_100oct
  Formation VIC3
  CallSign 26
  Fuel 70
  Weapons 1
  Skill 0.8 0.6 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.5 0.6 0.5
  Aging 5
  Serial0 005
[BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01_Way]
  NORMFLY 154290.06 58693.29 100.00 250.00
  NORMFLY 155919.42 65256.94 100.00 250.00
[BoB_LW_LG2_I.21]
  Flight0  1
  Class Aircraft.Bf-109E-1
  Formation FINGERFOUR
  CallSign 30
  Fuel 90
  Weapons 1 1
  Skill 1 0.63 1 1 0.53 1 1 0.53
[BoB_LW_LG2_I.21_Way]
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 155942.68 65351.74 100.00 200.00 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 1
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 151376.64 46923.37 500.00 569.10 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 0
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 177821.45 65818.86 2000.00 400.00 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 0
  AATTACK_FIGHTERS 162511.08 60005.30 1000.00 360.00 BoB_RAF_F_92Sqn_Early.01 0
  LANDING 157860.39 58498.22 0.00 220.00
[CustomChiefs]
[Stationary]
[Buildings]
[BuildingsLinks]

 

 

Edited by Dagwoodyt

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3 hours ago, 56RAF_Stickz said:

Ran this same mission, crashes my machine 2 times out of 3.

 

The only probable explanation for this I imagine is AI settings combination.

 

I think about the region of map as cause,  but remember play in the same spot without issues.

 

I change the map for summer and game crash still happening.

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59 minutes ago, FG28Artist said:

When does the crash happen? At Startup? Later?

mine seemed fairly random (but did only run initially 3 times), first was about 30seconds in when I was still trying to get eyes onto the bandit and another when it made a second or third pass on me, so maybe 2 or 3 mnutes in. But not at startup.

However late last night (actually early this morning) I did edit his load out and add the missing two gun belts. Then put it in FMB, and resaved it using one of my custom belting loadouts and it ran twice without crash. But only had time to try the twice.

 

6 hours ago, Sokol1 said:

I think about the region of map as cause,  but remember play in the same spot without issues.

no, similar to you I have missions in same area (with ships usually to engage) and have no issues normally. I did wonder if his waypoints went out of the designated area -- but I have never had to worry about that so it seems unlikely.

7 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Good point. I compared this to other MIS. files and those I looked at did not have those code lines for each belt. I deleted them and saved the mission under another name and it ran, but still crashed several times although seemed to run longer before crashing. At any rate the lines relating to the six(?) belts are not needed (on  MY install) and I have no idea how they got there

Yes they are not needed, although I believe the "weapons 1" line then just uses the default values - although whether these can be mucked up by user I do not know.

Your user.ini file in my documents. Will have default and custom loadouts for all planes you have flown. Can also set them via the RAFloadout manager utility (but only for spits and hurris). There is also the loadout manager that works for German as well, but it looks for the old "my documents\game MOD" directory which no longer exists. Although can fool it, make the missing directory as it used to be pre blitz days, move the user.ini into it, run utility to modify then move it back. Been half heartedly writing my own (had to do similar for writing a compiler project when studying for computer degree years back (many years back hah C++ was only just a thing and OOP was rocket science)) but with desert coming I shelved it any way.

The FMB has a setting for belting - you can actually see it in your FMB shots from Sunday in the group properties (for 109). I guess you have never made custom belting, so there is just the default available on the pull down and at some time you have been using the ingame adjustment for spit1_100oct and only saved for 6 sixs guns and left it as the default ("custom") name so overwrote it.

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@56RAF_Stickz

Again thanks for the tip on custom ammo belts in FMB. For this test mission I use the custom ammo belts I had set up in the MP menu. I would say I can run the mission to completion to landing maybe on one in three attempts. On last try I lost track of the AI after he made 3-4 attack passes and picked him up again during his landing attempt which he had to then abort. Of course he did his defensive dance and finally crashed. TIR is an absolute pain and limiting factor for flat screen work. After all this though AI behavior (109 & G.50 at least) still seems to be to climb away, make several diving attacks then go into defensive mode. Once in defensive mode the AI will not attack even when given an easy shot at me. I will continue to mod this mission to see if there is any way to get it to complete consistently. Any bets as to AI changes in Blitz 5.0?

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

On last try I lost track of the AI after he made 3-4 attack passes and picked him up again during his landing attempt which he had to then abort. Of course he did his defensive dance and finally crashed.

its possible he is out of ammo after several passes, but I know they were prone to going passive. One I flew late last night made 5 or 6 passes but didnt shoot on all, then I got sloppy and got hit. But particularly once the landing waypoint is engaged they slave to it (as does BoX) and appear to just defend.

So to an extent it is completing in that its flown the waypoints. But it has never fought to the death, I never had a complaint about the boom n zoom method, but do wonder what the criteria was for leaving and radius of waypoint action ie passes last whilst engaged with you/us so go to rtb mode.

So what do you expect extra/different to happen except a continous re-engage or it to dogfight?

5 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

TIR is an absolute pain and limiting factor for flat screen work

Never had any issue with it, works the same as any other flight sim with it (fpr me). In some ways a mouse was better but only had 4DoF, and required a 100% free hand but I could track a target better, particularly when looking through the canopy roof. Only difficult in my house with sunlight interfereing with its operation (then again living in Scotland this is seldom an issue).

 

5 hours ago, Dagwoodyt said:

Any bets as to AI changes in Blitz 5.0?

Sorry not gonna play that game before its even flyable to me.

Edited by 56RAF_Stickz
forgot to add the question I was asking

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Posted (edited)
On 8/2/2020 at 10:32 AM, Dagwoodyt said:

I put together a test mission I plan to use for Blitz 5.0. In Blitz 4.57.3 if I put 109 E-1 AI close to its' base and give it a 90% fuel load the AI will make several initial attack passes at me then  climb to altitude near 20k ft. If the AI does not have a shooting solution early on it may just climb away. The AI, after getting to altitude, then dives toward base. If I attempt to interdict the AI's descent toward its' base the AI will evade my fire but will not return fire or attempt to get to my six. 

 

Dagoodyt

 

I remember a thing, although AI 109 has more than one waypoint in the mission  with "AATACK FIGHTERS"order, he engage only in one, and (I suppose) when the timer of this waypoint task expire the following waipoint's is canceled remaining only the landing waypoint, so the are in "dumb mode".

 

You can see this when notice that BF 109 don't fight anymore, click on screen, select view plane, select Bf 109 and hit the key for (VIEW category) "Take Control of Select AI Aircraft", in Realism, all "Cannot Switch Plane" need be un-ticked, as well "Visual Aids enabled, for see plane icons and routes on map.

Will see that Bf 109 are linked to airfield and not the next waypoint in the sequence.

 

This change of task happens just after planes merge:

 

WP-1.jpg

WP-2.jpg
 

Then imagine that after "Attack fighters" timer expire, Bf 109 go for landing, and just maneuver if you close in their six.

 

Area a topic there or in ATAG about this bug.

 

So ... 😜

 

BTW - In one run of this mission, the 109 remove (LASER cut in the hinges) Spitfire rudder, what don't cause any aerodynamic effect.

 

8 hours ago, FG28Artist said:

When does the crash happen? At Startup? Later?

 

For me happens just after planes merge, a minute or so in the mission, game became "hiccup" and crash for desktop.

 

What is more or less when the next waypoint's AI - minus landing, are canceled.

Edited by Sokol1

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