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Why the Fw-190A3? What is the charm?


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So I finally got the Fw-190A3... and the fact that the nose is a bit shorter makes all the difference.

 

Conclusion:

- The elevator is lighter and more responsive

-  Stall onset is much smoother (it enters and exits spins like a dream).

- Control harmonisation is excellent

 

For some reason the roll rate is also higher

 

Initially it was unsettling and seemed like a bad gun-platform - and it is a bad gunner platform, but only in yaw. The more sensitive pitch and role actually makes it much easier to line up shots once one is used to it. So, yeah, it looks like an A5 with less features and ground attack potential - but it is a dream... the original Fw-190 dream!

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In the early days was not so much of a dream to fly . We are lucky we have a community and a dev team that is willing to change things with good data . The A3 is the best a;; round 190 .  

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The Fw-190 A-3 is a much better turn-fighter than the later 190s (barring the D, of course). It's more maneuverable in general (than later A-series), but turning is the most notable difference in my mind. You still won't consistently out-turn a Yak, but you can easily turn inside an La-5 (in career mode; I'm not talking about multiplayer). Like others have mentioned, I also fly routinely without the extra 20mm in the outer wings. They're totally unnecessary offensively, and the extra weight is never good for agility.

 

Here, I'll provide some graphic evidence of the A-3's capabilities (I'm the second plane from the left):

 

20200908151636_1.thumb.jpg.cdb7bb393cd754114e3ec7c00a7a8424.jpg

 

This sortie was a troop cover mission. I flew in circles for 20 minutes with no action. Got the 'mission complete' message. My flight went home. I stayed behind (because I know from experience that enemies spawn after the 'mission complete' message). A few minutes later, 2 Sturmoviks spawn nearby. I shoot them down. Moments later, 6 La-5s descend from altitude to attack me.

 

To my surprise (I only recently began my A-3 career), I find that after a few circuits, I can turn inside an La-5. Generally, I enter the turn at combat power, then after a few circuits, when I appear to be catching up to the La-5, I pull hard while applying emergency power. No shakes, no spins like a fatter Focke-Wulf would do. A tiny bit of wind buffeting noise, but nothing to be concerned over. In this fashion, I shoot down 4 La-5s. I'm only credited with 3, stupidly, because 1 crash lands without breaking up. The other 2 La-5s collided with each other while circling me.

 

So, yeah. That's what an A-3 can do, in career, on hard mode. Admittedly, I have a harder time with Yaks. But they're still not impossible to shoot down, even if you don't know any tricks besides turning, like me.

Edited by oc2209
Unintentional merging of my posts made one giant monster post. Deleted one post.
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@oc2209, I'm off topic a bit, but since you are completing a FW190A3 career, can you confirm something I have observed systematically ? (I tested it with five or six pretend careers) : Missions conducted by AI pilots (missions that you are not a part of) generate no kills at all. No ground kills... No air kills... But on those missions you fly, the pilots flying with you will get kills. This is the only plane that seems affected by this little bug in career mode. Btw, the A3 is my favorite plane. Fast, agile, with a lot of firepower. The extra 20mm in the outer wings will affect performance, but they deliver quite a punch against IL-2's. 

Edited by Cleo9
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6 hours ago, Cleo9 said:

 

@oc2209, I'm off topic a bit, but since you are completing a FW190A3 career, can you confirm something I have observed systematically ?

 

Sure, I'll keep an eye on it. I'm only about 5 sorties into the career, but now that you mention it, I don't recall seeing any kills made on AI sorties; so you might be on to something.

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54 minutes ago, JG4_dingsda said:

I flew one or two missions to check out whether it still runs and seems just fine. :)

Thank you! I cant test it right now so it is nice to know that there is some cool campaign to fly when i have time.

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12 hours ago, Mika_87 said:

Bought it on sale -85%. Very good plane. Now I need to find some scripted campaigns to fly.

There is also Juri's 'I./JG 51 over the Rzhev Salient', you might want to try. It is paying on the Moscow map.

Third campaign would be Jade Monkey's 'Butcher' campaign, but it looks like this one is not up to date. And you would need the Stalingrad map for this one.

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57 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

There is also Juri's 'I./JG 51 over the Rzhev Salient', you might want to try. It is paying on the Moscow map.

Third campaign would be Jade Monkey's 'Butcher' campaign, but it looks like this one is not up to date. And you would need the Stalingrad map for this one.

Thank you! I try find that Juri's campaign. I have all released maps so moscow is not a problem.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 7/21/2020 at 2:00 AM, Avimimus said:

So, a lot of people like this airplane... clearly!

 

But to the casual observer it is very similar to the Fw-190A5 - except it has a few nice skins and a few less load-out options. It also might be available a bit earlier (so weaker opponents to fight?)

 

So, tell me - why should I get this collector plane? Sell me on it!

 

It is the first Fw 190 in game, and Fw 190 is the most awesome fighter in WW2. Yeah, I am a fan.

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6 hours ago, nervenklau said:

This is what I found from a FW190 book. A3 with sand filter, 680km/h at altitude.

IMG-2275.jpg

Still doesn't explain the difference to the FW 190 A-5. The A-5 is slower for no reason. The same book states 680kph for the A-5 as well. (Page 176)
Fw 190 Volume 1 1938-1943 (Smith/Creek) 

Edited by DerSheriff
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The A3 has an almost perfect combination of speed and turning ability. Against the BoBP planes, in game, it fits in with the real life accounts of p47s and tempests having around the same turning radius as the Antons. However in game the A8 is so much worse, it seems like the two FMs are a lot further apart than the weight difference suggest should be the case.

 

I hope they can have a look, because my gut feeling is that the a8 in game is not turning as well as it should, has no hope against 47s, tempests and Mustangs unless it hits and runs with excess energy.

 

You can see from real gun cam footage the late Antons were very similar in turning ability as the p47

 

The A3 however, in game, seems to match with the gun cam better.

 

Perhaps the a8 FM should be closer to the a3's in terms of turning, and the engine of the A3 should be closer to the a8's at very high altitude >5.5km…?

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57 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

The A3 has an almost perfect combination of speed and turning ability. Against the BoBP planes, in game, it fits in with the real life accounts of p47s and tempests having around the same turning radius as the Antons. However in game the A8 is so much worse, it seems like the two FMs are a lot further apart than the weight difference suggest should be the case.

 

I hope they can have a look, because my gut feeling is that the a8 in game is not turning as well as it should, has no hope against 47s, tempests and Mustangs unless it hits and runs with excess energy.

 

You can see from real gun cam footage the late Antons were very similar in turning ability as the p47

 

The A3 however, in game, seems to match with the gun cam better.

 

Perhaps the a8 FM should be closer to the a3's in terms of turning, and the engine of the A3 should be closer to the a8's at very high altitude >5.5km…?

Between them are over 500kg. (Standard weight) I would expect quite a considerable difference

Edited by DerSheriff
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24 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:

Between them are over 500kg. (Standard weight) I would expect quite a considerable difference

But just going by feel, even a 10% fuel a8 feels like a slug compared to a full fuel A3, and that accounts for a lot of the weight difference?

 

It's only a feeling anyway, but they seem like chalk and cheese to me.

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10 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

But just going by feel, even a 10% fuel a8 feels like a slug compared to a full fuel A3, and that accounts for a lot of the weight difference?

 

It's only a feeling anyway, but they seem like chalk and cheese to me.


its really quite a bit of weight. If you just compare the behavior of F-4 to G-4 to G-6
They all have like 100kg more than the predecessor and the difference is really noticeable.

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24 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:


its really quite a bit of weight. If you just compare the behavior of F-4 to G-4 to G-6
They all have like 100kg more than the predecessor and the difference is really noticeable.

Pity there's not a 'weight watcher's edition' like the p47 😄

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Concerning speed disparages between the A3 and A5, the A5 should be faster on all altitudes due to the ability to close the gills on the engine cowling.

This should AFAIK be the only change affecting parasitic drag.

 

As for the weight, AFAIK this has only an effect on induced drag, which becomes less important the faster the aircraft goes.

The 71kg difference would then "only" make a difference in acceleration, climb speed, instantaneous as well as sustained turns.

Another factor affecting instantaneous turn is the CoG.

 

Whether these changes are realistically portrayed in the sim I wouldn´t know though. 

1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

But just going by feel, even a 10% fuel a8 feels like a slug compared to a full fuel A3, and that accounts for a lot of the weight difference?

 

A8 has a minimum weight of 3697 kg, the A3´s max weight is 4385 kg.

Would be cool if someone directly compared the two. 

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So that means we should fix A5 instead of A3.

On 10/8/2020 at 2:50 AM, DerSheriff said:

Still doesn't explain the difference to the FW 190 A-5. The A-5 is slower for no reason. The same book states 680kph for the A-5 as well. (Page 176)
Fw 190 Volume 1 1938-1943 (Smith/Creek) 

 

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On 9/9/2020 at 1:41 AM, oc2209 said:

The Fw-190 A-3 is a much better turn-fighter than the later 190s (barring the D, of course). It's more maneuverable in general (than later A-series), but turning is the most notable difference in my mind. You still won't consistently out-turn a Yak, but you can easily turn inside an La-5 (in career mode; I'm not talking about multiplayer). Like others have mentioned, I also fly routinely without the extra 20mm in the outer wings. They're totally unnecessary offensively, and the extra weight is never good for agility.

Turn fighting against really limited AI capabilities invites very bad habits with that plane. Also Fw190 AI wingman can't help much other than being bait and can only turn fight as they die left and right. As do player in MP as they spin circles on the ground left and right 🤣

 

Poor 190 pilots lose all the time against their own greed. "Almost in gun-sight, turn turn a little bit more, shit not enough lead. Damn almost stall again and why I can't get the enemy off my tail, my plane should be faster." 

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3 hours ago, nervenklau said:

So that means we should fix A5 instead of A3.

 


Also more sources should be used. This test here suggests 660kph for the A-3 which is much closer to the A-5 results:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a3-climb-speed-26-11-42.jpg
660kph here as well
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a3-sheet-26-11-42.jpg

For the A-5, 660kph:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/190a5-level-20-10-43.jpg

So since I trust orinal sources more than a book, I say 660kph is correct and the A-3 is too fast.

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Thank you for the data. Seems they are for 4 cannons version.

37 minutes ago, DerSheriff said:


Also more sources should be used. This test here suggests 660kph for the A-3 which is much closer to the A-5 results:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a3-climb-speed-26-11-42.jpg
660kph here as well
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190-a3-sheet-26-11-42.jpg

For the A-5, 660kph:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/190a5-level-20-10-43.jpg

So since I trust orinal sources more than a book, I say 660kph is correct and the A-3 is too fast.

 

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The A-5 yes, but I suspect that the A-3 is tested without the guns since the aircraft has only a weight of 3850kg. Apart of the guns he weight of the A-5 should be otherwise unchanged.
The weight difference shouldn't be much of a concern speedwise and the aerodynamic penalty is minimal since the guns are fully emplaced in the wing. (game stat sheet notes like 5kph of the top of my head)

All the sources I have found indicate a similar speed of roughly 660kph, and not 680

That said the test of the LW themselves state a error margin of 3% which would place the 680kph just above the topend of that margin.
 

Edited by DerSheriff
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On 10/7/2020 at 11:43 PM, nervenklau said:

This is what I found from a FW190 book. A3 with sand filter, 680km/h at altitude.

IMG-2275.jpg


This speed is not based on a sand filter. It is for an external air intake for the supercharger - no FW190 had a carburetor like the book caption said, instead they had direct fuel injection. 
 

Ground attack FW190’s did use sand filters when conditions demanded it. Externally they look similar to, but not exactly like the exterior air intakes. That speed test was done with a FW190 equipped with the external air intakes.

 

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On 8/5/2020 at 11:13 PM, mincer said:


I always had the same question. While it is understandable that Fw-190 gained weight to accommodate bombs, heavier armor and guns, Bf-109 was mostly intended for fighter role (correct me if I am wrong).

Spoiler

 

As the war progressed , the role was changing to a more defensive one for fighters in the LW, ie  stopping the bombers from destroying the resources. When you loose air superiority you have to pick your fights. Fighter armaments increased to take down bombers and for  you need bigger guns. (firepower). Also other things like safety come into play, the less experienced your pilots are (because as war progressed LW pilots were much more RAW recruits) the more you want them not to die during takeoff  and landing (things like larger wheels to improve ground handling). The early G series were not much different to the F4. The 109 had like many ww2 planes so many variants and sub variants during the war, its difficult to keep track.

 

You also need to understand the politics of war and common ideology of the time. Fighters are there to protect the bombers or shoot them down . Most combat as war progressed was not like the BOB conflict early war where Hitler was trying to gain air superiority to land ground forces in England.

 

That's my understanding, (that's a very rough overview).

 

The conditions of combat in most mplayer servers do not reflect ww2 as much as many like to believe. Gameplay for fun  takes priority over historic flying accuracy and conditions of engagement.

 

 

I hope they fix the A3 if its alt speed is wrong , but I don't think many fly at the altitude much in mplayer. In my experience most combat online is under 3km, very little is 6km and up. {I'd like them to improve the p40 as well and the M2 MG , the peak g force insta blackouts etc etc. I live in hope, but I'm still having fun.}

Edited by =RS=Stix_09
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I dont fly the A3, but I can tell you from the opposite:

 

A3 is faster, Has insane amount of deadly ammo, One small hit and your plane is out, Insane maneuverability with trim and flaps used, so the plane can decelerate immediatelly and hit whatever he want.

You cannot fly on headons with this plane. 

You cannot pass by the plane from the short distance it always drift in direction of you and hit your plane. You cannot follow the A3, it is always faster. 

Yes you can dive and hit the plane. BUT in this situation his wing team will kill you or you spend all your ammo and A3 continues in flying. When you decide to return home and turn your plane back. He turns as well with heavy damaged plane, and he is coming closer bcs he still have higher speed.

 

I dont think GERmans have better plane than A3 at this moment. Whatever Year of war.

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I love this fighter, I consider its way better and more capable overall (as a pure fighter and also ground pounding) than the 109 F4 or G2 (or even late models). Great maneuverability, guns, visibility, speed, etc.

 

However, I started a career the other day, stalingrad map, in a group that flies only the G2, moderate difficulty. I managed to shot down like >30 planes (bunch of fighters, 1 or 2 IL, don't remember, averaging like 3 enemy planes shot by mission) before finally being able to be transferred to that group that flies exclusively the A3 from pitomnik (second "part" of the career). I did like 4 fighter missions (and 1 ground pounding), in which I only managed to shot down 2 planes (not because of not being enemy planes present, but because I missed every shot and also couldn't get a firing position in many situations), only because they were easy preys. Then, a pair of yaks rekt me and my flight leader in a free hunt mission.

 

So my conclusion is: while the 190 (and specially the A3) is a great fighter (probably the best in-game currently, only after the D9), you need to be a good "pilot" to fly it well and use it so that it worth the pain. The 109 instead can be flown in a "dirtier" way by a not-so-good pilot and the results will be better (although I always die in my careers due to bad piloting practices).

On 9/8/2020 at 8:41 PM, oc2209 said:

I stayed behind (because I know from experience that enemies spawn after the 'mission complete' message).

Man, I hate this. I always do the same as well.

On 10/15/2020 at 2:30 AM, ZeroCrack01 said:

"Almost in gun-sight, turn turn a little bit more, shit not enough lead. Damn almost stall again and why I can't get the enemy off my tail, my plane should be faster."

Typical noob 190 pilot. Like me, for example :biggrin:

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On 10/15/2020 at 1:30 AM, ZeroCrack01 said:

Turn fighting against really limited AI capabilities invites very bad habits with that plane. Also Fw190 AI wingman can't help much other than being bait and can only turn fight as they die left and right. As do player in MP as they spin circles on the ground left and right 🤣

 

Poor 190 pilots lose all the time against their own greed. "Almost in gun-sight, turn turn a little bit more, shit not enough lead. Damn almost stall again and why I can't get the enemy off my tail, my plane should be faster." 

 

Man, you just described me to a T.  

One of my problems is playing single player, I care about my AI mates.  So I try to get enemies off of their tails, which make me match their maneuvers too much, which means I am flying the 190 like the AI ...

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28 minutes ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

Man, you just described me to a T.  

One of my problems is playing single player, I care about my AI mates.  So I try to get enemies off of their tails, which make me match their maneuvers too much, which means I am flying the 190 like the AI ...

Exactly my case. With the 109, I have no problems at all, even if it's a "worse" plane compared to the 190.

 

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