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earldaniel89

Tank Crews Balance

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Posted (edited)

Hello,

I am considering buying Tank Crews as an add-on for the IL-2 Great Battles I already own, but one thing is bugging me; how the current axis and allied line-ups compare to eachother. I am well experienced with WW2 tanks and their performance, I have also been playing War Thunder for over 6 years and am now transitioning over to IL-2, but I am not sure how the allied teams are supposed to compete with Tigers, Panthers and Ferdinands when all they have are early Russian 76mm guns which can only pen the sides reliably of the aforementioned tanks. I understand they are supposed to be contempory tanks, but realistically at that point, the majority of Panzers fielded were of the III and IV variety. Wouldn't a better line-up of allied vehicles be the SU-85M, T-34-57, IS-1 or KV-85, M4A3 (76) and SU-152??? (or something along those lines)

I know this one is final and pretty much completed, but for the next one, maybe a less one sided pack because the germans have both the firepower and armour advantage in this expansion.

xoxoxo

Edited by earldaniel89
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Tank Crew is aimed at representing the Battle of Kursk from July - Aug 1943.  The only tank in your list that participated in the Battle of Kursk was the Su-152 and that is in the game.  The rest all came after the Battle of Kursk had ended.  Try to remember the aim of a simulation is not balance, but to provide an historically accurate representation of actual events.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, earldaniel89 said:

I understand they are supposed to be contempory tanks, but realistically at that point, the majority of Panzers fielded were of the III and IV variety.

 

You are correct. Fortunately, mission designers can account for this by limiting the availability of the heavier German vehicles to historical levels. You will find that Tigers, Panthers, and Ferdinands do not appear nearly as frequently as Panzer IIIs and IVs.

 

33 minutes ago, earldaniel89 said:

Wouldn't a better line-up of allied vehicles be the SU-85M, T-34-57, IS-1 or KV-85, M4A3 (76) and SU-152??? (or something along those lines)

 

The problem is that most of these vehicles did not exist during the July - August Kursk events or only appeared in very small numbers. However, the SU-152 is included in Tank Crew.

Edited by Mitthrawnuruodo

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Indeed... part of what makes it interesting is the connection with history produced by simulating part of one real battle... and the resulting need to use tactics from that time.

  

30 minutes ago, earldaniel89 said:

I know this one is final and pretty much completed, but for the next one, maybe a less one sided pack because the germans have both the firepower and armour advantage in this expantion.

 

This raises an interesting question: Would an early war scenario be more balanced (i.e. short-barreled Pz.IV and StuG, Pz.III, Marder)? Or a late war scenario (Su-85, IS-1/IS-2)?

 

What about Normandy vs. Ardennes?

 

P.S. TF/Tobruk/Desert Wings may have playable tanks... but the allies would be largely limited to 40mm AP... so... also a bit of a pain.

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Early war would be odd and would depend on the question "how early" and "what scenario".  Russia mostly had BT types.  T34s and KVIs existed but numbers were limited compared to BTs.  The most common tank in the German inventory at that time was the PzKpfw III armed with the 50mm/L42 (shot barreled) gun. Balance would depend on what the game provided and how mission designers chose to use it.

 

Same is true of late war scenarios.  Ground warfare on the western front is IMHO much harder to balance.  We now that 1:1, all other things being equal, the German tanks were much better tank killers than the American tanks.  But Americans had numbers and logistics.  German logistics were broken, but that is not modeled in mission scenarios (maybe give the Panther 10% fuel :) ) .  On a tactical level the Germans could and often did win skirmishes, but in the end their tanks were being destroyed.  Often by Shermans, sometimes by airplanes, often by running out of gas.  So I'm not sure tank warfare in Europe is as amenable to gaming as the eastern front.

 

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6 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

This raises an interesting question: Would an early war scenario be more balanced (i.e. short-barreled Pz.IV and StuG, Pz.III, Marder)? Or a late war scenario (Su-85, IS-1/IS-2)?

 

Interesting question indeed. In a 1941 Eastern Front scenario, I think that the tank balance would shift decisively in favour of the Soviets. Although the numerous BT tanks would be largely ineffective, the KV-1 and T-34 would be almost impervious to the 37 mm, 50 mm, and low-velocity 75 mm guns of the German tanks. German vehicles would have no chance in these encounters; the 4,7 cm PaK on the tiny Panzerjäger I would be among the best they could offer.

 

In 1942 the balance would improve somewhat thanks to the longer 50 mm and 75 mm guns on the Panzers, plus the Marders and StuGs.

 

I think a 1944-1945 scenario would work very well. The T-34-85 would easily match the Panzer IVs and put up a reasonable fight against Tigers and Panthers. The IS tanks would finally counter the heavy German vehicles head-on. Only the Tiger II would have outstanding protection and long-range firepower.

 

Switching to a Normandy or Ardennes scenario, we'd see a repeat of the Kursk situation. The common 75 mm Allied tanks would be a good match for Panzer IVs and StuGs, but the big German cats would again lack an Allied equivalent. Fortunately the new 76 mm and 17-pounder would enhance the antitank capabilities of some Allied vehicles.

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19 minutes ago, Mitthrawnuruodo said:

Interesting question indeed. In a 1941 Eastern Front scenario, I think that the tank balance would shift decisively in favour of the Soviets. Although the numerous BT tanks would be largely ineffective, the KV-1 and T-34 would be almost impervious to the 37 mm, 50 mm, and low-velocity 75 mm guns of the German tanks. German vehicles would have no chance in these encounters; the 4,7 cm PaK on the tiny Panzerjäger I would be among the best they could offer.

 

I kind-of want this one actually... in the sense that it'd flip the situation people expect - with T-34 and KV-1 taking a role similar to that of the Tiger or Jadgpanther... being almost invulnerable, but also being very rare. I'd love to drive a BT tank (or T-60/T-70) and then get transferred to a KV-1... the Panzerjäger I would also be pretty crazy.

 

It'd also be interesting to have the early 50mm Pz.III being the most powerful Axis tank (although the short-barreled Pz.IV could also be pretty effective against a T-34 under the right conditions).

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1 minute ago, Avimimus said:

 

I I'd love to drive a BT tank (or T-60/T-70) .

 

Salutations,

 

   Even before the developers actually put together Tank Crew as a stand alone module for us, I was urging for the addition of player controlled T-70s and P38t tanks. I felt they could open up some interesting mission possibilities.

 

I was obviously disappointed that they weren't made so.  ☹️

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2 hours ago, Avimimus said:

This raises an interesting question: Would an early war scenario be more balanced (i.e. short-barreled Pz.IV and StuG, Pz.III, Marder)? Or a late war scenario (Su-85, IS-1/IS-2)?

 

What about Normandy vs. Ardennes?

 

P.S. TF/Tobruk/Desert Wings may have playable tanks... but the allies would be largely limited to 40mm AP... so... also a bit of a pain.

 

Spring Awakening 1945 setup:

Panther G late/T34-85

Tiger II H/IS-2

Jagdpanther/Su-100

Stug IV/M4A2 76mm

Hetzer/ISU-122

 

Bulge setup:

Pz IVJ/M4A3

Panther G early/M4A3E8 (Easy Eight)

Jagdpanzer IV-70/M18

Nashorn/M36

Tiger II P/M4A3E2 (Jumbo) + 76mm mod

 

Normandy setup:

Pz IVH/Cromwell IV

Panther A/M4A4 + 17 pounder mod (Firefly)

Marder IIIM/M10 + 17 pounder mod

Stug IIIG/M4A1(76)W

Tiger I E Late (Michael Wittmann tank)/Churchill VII

 

El Alamein setup:

PZ IVF1 + F2 mod/M4A1

PZ IIIL/Crusader III (6 pounder)

Marder III/Churchill III (Kingforce)

Semovente 75-18/M3 Grant

Carro Armato M14-41/M3 Stuart

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Only late war "USSR vs Germany" will have good balance. Prokhorovka was bad decision and if this project will not be rejected by 777 and 1CGS Western Europe could be chosen for attracting new players and money. 17-pounder is really good gun and I really like Firefly.

But regarding armour protection and guns - it is Eastern theater of operation only. 

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I choose (1) Normandy setup, and, (2) BoB setup.....

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Posted (edited)

 We have warthunder for balance. I love that they went for Kursk. It’s just such an interesting period and is balanced at least from an armies perspective. Both armies were strong and either could be defensive or offensive in this period. Not to mention the huge tank battles taking place in areas like prokhova. I think the most interesting tanks are all included as well. We got the pziii all the way to thr panther as well as the kv1 to t34, so early war to all but the very late war rare giants. I mean you would have missed some classic tanks if you went later.  I guess my MO is that I am interested less in dueling and more about making coop missions. So it does not matter to me as much that you might have to do blue on blue missions to get balance.

Edited by [KG]Destaex

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2 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

We have warthunder for balance

Balance? hahaha, a game that nerf the tiger so its a joke as it faces tanks it would never had seen or the tanks it could see has better pen than it should and then the whole russian bias and the system at play.... I love that tank crew goes full sim in this and dont hold back and simulates certain tank battles, this was the case at kursk so you cant play the game as warthunder...and if you try the multiplayer you will notice the russians win way more than the german side ;) Have excellent soviet tankers here that with their way more agile and fast t-34s will take out tiger/panther with ease in towns and forests.

Also most servers limits the heavy tanks or by giving one side more anti tank guns and locations on maps.

War isnt a fair game and thats the case in this game, just enjoy it for the tanks and play and have fun, dont think and obsesse with winning 100% of the time or one is in a world of pain :P

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That's my point. Balance creams historical accuracy and simulation every time. You see it in War thunder with tigers going up against modern era tanks. I am well aware of the claims to Russian bias in war thunder as well. But I don't see it because I don't play it

For the record I play War Thunder ships and nothing else from them.  I am also guilty of playing world of warships... both of these decisions are based on time and being able to play with friends in multiplayer games. I stopped at arcade tank mode which some friends wanted me to join in on. I wish war thunder ships battles were faster though as with respawns they go on forever. Sailing time is exhorbitant for a non sim game. I love though that they modelled the ballistics correctly. THat is that if you are moving your barrel affects your rounds trajectory left of right as you slow and speed up. So you end up instead of leading, lagging the target most of the time if you are moving faster than it. I wonder if the same applies to tanks?? Or are they not moving enough and firing at sufficient ranges for it to matter??

 

One of the things I love about tank crew is that you can get into the action right away while still having the realism. 

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11 hours ago, ww2fighter20 said:

Spring Awakening 1945 setup:

Panther G late/T34-85

Tiger II H/IS-2

Jagdpanther/Su-100

Stug IV/M4A2 76mm

Hetzer/ISU-122

I would change between themselves the SU-100 and the ISU-122. Jagdpanther heavy tank destroyer, the soviet counterpart will be ISU-122.

Jagdpanther/ISU-122

Hetzer/SU-100

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21 hours ago, earldaniel89 said:

Hello,

I am considering buying Tank Crews as an add-on for the IL-2 Great Battles I already own, but one thing is bugging me; how the current axis and allied line-ups compare to eachother. I am well experienced with WW2 tanks and their performance, I have also been playing War Thunder for over 6 years and am now transitioning over to IL-2, but I am not sure how the allied teams are supposed to compete with Tigers, Panthers and Ferdinands when all they have are early Russian 76mm guns which can only pen the sides reliably of the aforementioned tanks. I understand they are supposed to be contempory tanks, but realistically at that point, the majority of Panzers fielded were of the III and IV variety. Wouldn't a better line-up of allied vehicles be the SU-85M, T-34-57, IS-1 or KV-85, M4A3 (76) and SU-152??? (or something along those lines)

I know this one is final and pretty much completed, but for the next one, maybe a less one sided pack because the germans have both the firepower and armour advantage in this expansion.

xoxoxo

If you enjoy armored game play/simulation and are considering TC, then I would encourage you to try the two simple models available in the IL2 module you own if you haven't already done that. I am sure you won't be disappointed, and the full models add a lot to the experience.

 

If a concern about balance is what is holding you back, then I honestly don't think you have much to worry about. As others have mentioned, the dynamic of multi-player/single player game play is largely at the hands of the designer. In terms of the missions/content included with TC, you will find that you can easily be knocked out regardless of the vehicle you are driving. If your preference is Russian/allied vehicles, then expect to be knocked out a few times as you learn the strengths and weakness of each tank. Switching to the German vehicles won't change that reality. You will have to learn how to use each vehicle, but you can also adjust the level of difficulty as you learn.

 

Good luck with your decision. 

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19 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

I mean you would have missed some classic tanks if you went later.

Which existing in TC: cap types will be missed, except, maybe, Panzer III ausf L and M? T-34/76 fought in 44th as well as KV-1S. 

16 hours ago, [KG]Destaex said:

Balance creams historical accuracy and simulation every time.

So, if you want to play on Tiger and you came on Hungary map where are a lot of tanks of that type - this is very bad for accuracy and simulation. And if you came on Kursk map server where 4 available tanks were baseraped in the beginning of the match and you must leave or choose Panzer IV - this is good. Ok. 🤔 

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It's a shame that the lineup is complete, because there is too much emphasis on the 'super-tanks'. It would have been nice to see a BT7 or T26 to oppose the PzIII, and of course a StuG III on the German side.

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I like the line up. It's probably one of the best ever. But yes the early war Russian tanks that were much rarer, I would expect, by this time, are not included. Hopefully if Tank Crew is a success they can keep giving us tanks. Although I suspect because not many will know the earlier tanks or want to play battles that were famously one sided for the most part, that we will not see them for the eastern front. Unless of course the devs do the battle of france or something earlier.

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They were so openly assertive on the "no infantry" and my understanding is that this has been reevaluated and is in the works, so I wouldn't count these guys out on anything.  Uber tanks verses the practical workhorses on both sides of the line, was a bad decision in my opinion, but perhaps this can be corrected with some additional tanks in the future.  I wouldn't count some British tanks out for the Normandy map either....

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Anything will be welcome of course. There is no ww2 tank sim apart from this for multiplayer. So we better hope so. 

Looking at your avatar, you might like a Hellcat?

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Salutations,

 

The developers have a long history of continually adding to their games modules and striving to actually improve their product(s).

 

whisper... They have even been know to listen to us the players and in response make additions, improvements and changes based upon said input (to the best of their abilities). 😐

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Posted (edited)

My theory with public PvP Servers is, if super-tanks are available, even if limited, players strongly prefer them.

Not just because they are powerful, but they look cool and are super well known from history books, movies and games. Like the Panther and Tiger.

This is especially obvious if you have a low player count, you'll naturally get a few big cats versus whatever the other side has.

 

In the new future I'll try my hand on a coop TC event, where among other things all players will fight a pair of AI Tiger tanks from a advantage and with buildup to the fight. I expect much better results. I'm still building the mission, you'll hear from me announcing it later.

Edited by [N.O.G.F]Leon_Portier

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On 7/18/2020 at 11:11 AM, Thad said:

Salutations,

 

The developers have a long history of continually adding to their games modules and striving to actually improve their product(s).

 

whisper... They have even been know to listen to us the players and in response make additions, improvements and changes based upon said input (to the best of their abilities). 😐

That is really good to know.

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Posted (edited)

The tanks that are a must would be STUG III and T-34 85.  Both heavily produced and common during the later war.   STUGS were the most produced Germen tank from what I understand.  A more powerful Sherman should show up too I would hope.🤓

Edited by SMARTAZZ
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Posted (edited)
On 7/18/2020 at 10:56 AM, [KG]Destaex said:

Anything will be welcome of course. There is no ww2 tank sim apart from this for multiplayer. So we better hope so. 

Looking at your avatar, you might like a Hellcat?

My father was in the 629th Tank Destroyers and was in the M10 and then  went to the M36 with the newer 90mm towards the end of the war...

Edited by SCG_Neun
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Posted (edited)

I would really like a Tank Crew about the battles in the USSR in the summer of 1941.  For example, about one of the largest tank battles in Dubno-Lutsk-Brody.  great balance could be added.  here is the list:
Pz. 38t/Pz. 35t vs BT-5/7

Pz II (any modifications) vs Т-26 obr 1933/1939

Pz III vs T-28

Pz IV vs  T-34-76

Stug III vs KV-1

 

Still it would be possible to add armored vehicles to the Germans and to the Soviet troops, since at the initial period of the war in the USSR both sides had them in abundance, of various modifications.  but because of the production "capacity" of 1CGS Studios, I will highlight only 2 main modifications:

 

Sd.Kfz 222 vs BA-6.

 

Edited by =5GIAP=Eeafanas

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I actually think a scout unit simulation would also be amazing. Imagine a well modelled 222 or the russian 6 wheeler. Rushing through the lines to plot and identify enemy units and positions before rushing back through again. Dangerous work, reconnaissance is. I reckon these units were the real rock stars of the day.

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Give me STUG III. 😁 A tank add-on for with a Kharkov map would be amazing. They could reuse the map for several major battles in early but also late time battles. After 6k hours of war thunder I completely discarded it and have my peace enjoying il2 fly and tanksim. But do not expect a substitute for war thunder. "Balance" is quite a contradictory term in this simulator. At least imo

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14 часов назад, ZeroCrack01 сказал:

Give me STUG III. 😁 A tank add-on for with a Kharkov map would be amazing. They could reuse the map for several major battles in early but also late time battles. After 6k hours of war thunder I completely discarded it and have my peace enjoying il2 fly and tanksim. But do not expect a substitute for war thunder. "Balance" is quite a contradictory term in this simulator. At least imo

I generally think that making a balance in the SIMULATOR where historicity is more important is a stupid idea.  Personally, I see a very good period, namely the 1941 operation of Barbarossa.

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3 hours ago, =5GIAP=Eeafanas said:

I generally think that making a balance in the SIMULATOR where historicity is more important is a stupid idea.  Personally, I see a very good period, namely the 1941 operation of Barbarossa.

Oh yes, early tanks are very interesting.

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My understanding of balance in a game like WT is simply to make the game playable. But I would prefer to see the vehicles in Tank Crew modeled the way they were historically, and leave issues of balance to the mission designers. The mission designer can increase the number of Russian vs German tanks to balance it historically, or control which tanks face each other to balance game play similar to WT.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, LachenKrieg said:

My understanding of balance in a game like WT is simply to make the game playable. But I would prefer to see the vehicles in Tank Crew modeled the way they were historically, and leave issues of balance to the mission designers. The mission designer can increase the number of Russian vs German tanks to balance it historically, or control which tanks face each other to balance game play similar to WT.

Another way to do it is simply to give points for holding the enemy with a weaker force for a period of timioe. 

Also you can make the stronger force only win if they achieve much harder objectives. 

 

Heck for us simulation guys is it even about winning? I think perhaps more emphasis should be put on surviving rather than winning. Knowing when to get out of a tank via the floor hatch and perhaps being able to respawn from there in another tank.

 

 I think part of the reason I think I will like coop more than vs is because there is more immersion and less emphasis on individual competition. Too many multiplayer games are played in an artificial bubble that could be considered cage fighting rather than war fighting and realistic objective based missions.

 

would be cool to have a server up yhat ran a war 24hrs a day that all could contribute to against ai and if you happen to run into people then great. A persistent universe if you will.

Edited by [KG]Destaex
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I will just say: military life or war isnt fair and it will be brutal and thats what I like in sims: no hand holding and if you sit in a panzer III with the 37mm gun and a kv1 shows up: it will be uneven and there is the challenge, if you manage to beat it: superb and you are good and lucky. Warthunder nerfs tanks to fit and make up stuff like panther 2 having a 88 mm gun.... or silly battleratings making a tiger worthless and killable even to t-34s frontally making it unrealistic, maybe fair but it removes the fun for me, both as t-34 tanker and as a tiger tanker.

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Exactly. Add to this that you did not learn anything from war thunder because their was no appreciation for the way it was or how to adapt tactics. 

It's also a problem in sports. You never get any adaptive tactics or novel ideas because you have created ww1 stale mates before you even start. It's gonna be a slogging match from the beginning.

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On 7/11/2020 at 6:51 PM, earldaniel89 said:

Hello,

I am considering buying Tank Crews as an add-on for the IL-2 Great Battles I already own, but one thing is bugging me; how the current axis and allied line-ups compare to eachother. I am well experienced with WW2 tanks and their performance, I have also been playing War Thunder for over 6 years and am now transitioning over to IL-2, but I am not sure how the allied teams are supposed to compete with Tigers, Panthers and Ferdinands when all they have are early Russian 76mm guns which can only pen the sides reliably of the aforementioned tanks. I understand they are supposed to be contempory tanks, but realistically at that point, the majority of Panzers fielded were of the III and IV variety. Wouldn't a better line-up of allied vehicles be the SU-85M, T-34-57, IS-1 or KV-85, M4A3 (76) and SU-152??? (or something along those lines)

I know this one is final and pretty much completed, but for the next one, maybe a less one sided pack because the germans have both the firepower and armour advantage in this expansion.

xoxoxo

 

TC I bought it more or less in support of the whole IL2 affair and Jason's complaints of not having enough funds to find specialists.

 

Never knew tanks could be fun from a gaming point of view; chasing Nazi trains with a sherman as example.

The graphics of Prokhorovka are great, alas the area a bit small, but luckily you van use the (too few still?) tanks on other maps too, albeit the scenery is less of a looker.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, =5GIAP=Eeafanas said:

I generally think that making a balance in the SIMULATOR where historicity is more important is a stupid idea.  Personally, I see a very good period, namely the 1941 operation of Barbarossa.

If we are talking about offline campaigns, then I agree with you. There should be no balance. But if we are talking about online (especially dogfight servers), then the situation is completely different. And here the forces of the parties should be as balanced as possible. Now the "Germans" have an overwhelming advantage and it is very difficult to play for the "Reds". Although it develops their tactical prowess and ability to survive. Unfortunately, this game, according to the developers themselves, is focused primarily on offline, so the problems of online are not given enough attention. I know you really want guided anti-aircraft guns :). But it would be preferable if for the current project instead of anti-aircraft guns, first of all, they made KV-85 / SU-85 and, for example, Stug / Marder. This would somewhat equalize the possibilities of the parties.

********************************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Исходный текст (original text)

Если речь идёт об оффлайн кампаниях, то я с тобой соглашусь. Не должно быть никакого баланса. Но если мы говорим про онлайн (особенно догфайт серверы), тут ситуация совершенно другая. И здесь силы сторон должны быть по возможности сбалансированы. Сейчас "немцы" имеют подавляющее преимущество и играть за "красных" очень тяжело. Хотя это развивает их тактическое мастерство и умение выживать. К сожалению эта игра по заявлению самих разработчиков ориентирована в первую очередь на оффлайн, поэтому проблемам онлайна не уделяется достаточно внимания. Я знаю ты очень хочешь появления управляемых зениток. Но было бы предпочтительнее, если бы для текущего проекта вместо зениток в первую очередь сделали КВ-85/СУ-85 и, например, Штуг/Мардер. Это несколько уравняло бы возможности сторон.

Edited by DeNoZavr

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Posted (edited)

When I define balance.....I mean trying to simulate the game historically as possible....not on even footing.  Let's face it, for those that say the Tiger is just to tough......the Germans lost...right?

 

Unlike air combat missions, balanced ground combat missions cannot be auto generated, nor crafted without careful use of the limited ground terrain features currently available within Tank Crew.  Facing off against 8 Tiger tanks in an open steppe with say 2800 meters of visual view is never going to be balanced.  Well, I shouldn't say never..because place a few IL2's in the air loaded for bear and well.....it's a bad time for the Tiger.  Throw in a katyusha rocket attack and even that Tiger is going to be very vulnerable.  

 

You have to select a map with some ground features that will allow some hidden alternatives to an abundant supply of Soviet AT positions.  Some farm houses to break up the landscape perhaps, or a small town here and there, and use the ability to trigger your AT guns suddenly coming into position as the enemy approaches, say 300 meters.  This simulates at least to some extent the Soviet camouflage and concealment skills that many Germans documented on the Eastern Front.   Also, time of day for the mission is important, because even though historically many of these offensives began very early in the morning the lighting within this game just shines a spotlight on combat equipment that should in reality be hidden somewhat.  So I usually start my missions at 8AM or so.  

 

For the Battle of Kursk it is well known that the Soviets let the Germans advance offensively into their well fortified positions and just chewed them up with artillery, AT, ground attack and tanks.  Gain some ground at the cost of losing tanks, men and other equipment they couldn't afford to lose.  Missions should also have a bounty of Soviet tanks and equipment. What the Soviets could not achieve one on one, they could overcome in sheer numbers of equipment they could sacrifice on the battlefield.

 

So even though the Tiger is so darn tough, it can easily be knocked out in this game by one well placed shot from a sis-2 if it is not so lucky.  That, and the AI, AT very rarely misses it's target.  I guess what I'm saying is that balance can be achieved but it takes a lot of other elements other than just tanks.  You can't look at this game as just tanks against tanks, because that's not what it is at all.  The air component, the AT, artillery..rockets all come into play to shape the historic Eastern Front.

 

 

I include this little video of my death....from a combination of rocket attack and a sis-2 well positioned.  It is most certainly a knockout Tiger with all crew dead, instantly.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YWdXtNJdeI

 

 

Edited by SCG_Neun
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4 hours ago, SCG_Neun said:

When I define balance.....I mean trying to simulate the game historically as possible....not on even footing.  Let's face it, for those that say the Tiger is just to tough......the Germans lost...right?

 

Unlike air combat missions, balanced ground combat missions cannot be auto generated, nor crafted without careful use of the limited ground terrain features currently available within Tank Crew.  Facing off against 8 Tiger tanks in an open steppe with say 2800 meters of visual view is never going to be balanced.  Well, I shouldn't say never..because place a few IL2's in the air loaded for bear and well.....it's a bad time for the Tiger.  Throw in a katyusha rocket attack and even that Tiger is going to be very vulnerable.  

 

You have to select a map with some ground features that will allow some hidden alternatives to an abundant supply of Soviet AT positions.  Some farm houses to break up the landscape perhaps, or a small town here and there, and use the ability to trigger your AT guns suddenly coming into position as the enemy approaches, say 300 meters.  This simulates at least to some extent the Soviet camouflage and concealment skills that many Germans documented on the Eastern Front.   Also, time of day for the mission is important, because even though historically many of these offensives began very early in the morning the lighting within this game just shines a spotlight on combat equipment that should in reality be hidden somewhat.  So I usually start my missions at 8AM or so.  

 

For the Battle of Kursk it is well known that the Soviets let the Germans advance offensively into their well fortified positions and just chewed them up with artillery, AT, ground attack and tanks.  Gain some ground at the cost of losing tanks, men and other equipment they couldn't afford to lose.  Missions should also have a bounty of Soviet tanks and equipment. What the Soviets could not achieve one on one, they could overcome in sheer numbers of equipment they could sacrifice on the battlefield.

 

So even though the Tiger is so darn tough, it can easily be knocked out in this game by one well placed shot from a sis-2 if it is not so lucky.  That, and the AI, AT very rarely misses it's target.  I guess what I'm saying is that balance can be achieved but it takes a lot of other elements other than just tanks.  You can't look at this game as just tanks against tanks, because that's not what it is at all.  The air component, the AT, artillery..rockets all come into play to shape the historic Eastern Front.

 

 

I include this little video of my death....from a combination of rocket attack and a sis-2 well positioned.  It is most certainly a knockout Tiger with all crew dead, instantly.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YWdXtNJdeI

 

 

Great post, well said. For the vast majority here, I am guessing a big part of what makes TC enjoyable is the ability to recreate/simulate historical battles and, or variations to them. Balancing the sim so that it comes down to who shoots first would defeat that aim. I would prefer that the tanks in-game be modeled as they were historically, and let the mission designer create the desired balance by brings all the needed elements of the mission together as you said above. Having said that, I think TC could also use an area that could attract the more casual gaming crowd. Here too, balance for the sake of balanced game play could easily be made. Then we would have the best of both worlds.

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OK

So, as far as Prokhorovka goes then, Red stopped Blue in the region who then took up defensive positions.  Red then threw themselves at Blue wiping themselves out with very little effect on Blue.  Then, due to circumstances off map, Blue withdraws and Red is victorious.

 

What I haven't been able to find on the game map are the Russian tank traps. 

 

The last few paragraphs in this article which give the account of a Russian battlefield photographer are very interesting:  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48963295

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