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Damage model still needs serious attention

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I think using RoF as a benchmark is causing some of the issues here.

Despite the FM's theoretically being the same bar the Camel, none of the planes fly like the RoF counterparts.

The winners I'd say are the Camel and DVIIf, the rest are slightly worse performance-wise in some regard.

DVa's and Bristols don't roll quite as well as they did, Dr1 doesn't twitch quite as 'loosely', Spad doesn't dive quite as well, SE5 doesn't seem to hold energy as well.

I suppose the DVII and Pfalz are about as crappy.

 

I can only think the game engine itself is causing the difference, it feels like the 'atmosphere' is a bit thicker in the newer game engine.

And since it's newer, I'm prepared to accept that it's probably rendering a more realistic rendition of how these crates flew.

But obviously there's still a bit of tweaking to be done.

 

S!

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 In RoF it’s too slow to fight Spads

So was the real one back then.

 

26 minutes ago, BraveSirRobin said:

can’t turn well enough to Camels.

? There is no way it could turn like the Camel.

 

The only thing it had going for itself in 1918 was that it was easy to fly, remotely fast in a dive (faster than the Camel) and had effective guns. 

 

5 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

The winners I'd say are the Camel and DVIIf, the rest are slightly worse performance-wise in some regard.

Thank god. In RoF planes fly as there was no induced drag. Take the Breguet and marvel at outturning most fighters. The Camel got his wings clipped because of reasons and the DVIIf is a great aircraft.

 

There are some quirks in FC FM, but it is far above anything that simulates those old planes.

Edited by ZachariasX

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Ummmm... how about the Dva's papier-mâché wings for a start?

 

There's nothing new to say or debate here that hasn't already been said dozens of times elsewhere in this forum. At this point it's such a waste of time to engage anyone about it, which is probably the goal for someone who doesn't play this game. 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, US93_Talbot said:

There's nothing new to say or debate here that hasn't already been said dozens of times elsewhere in this forum. At this point it's such a waste of time to engage anyone about it

 


And yet, here you are...

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Posted (edited)

The Dv is one of the most beautiful planes in the war. Historically it was supposedly outclassed in the last year of the war and MvR thought it was a step back from earlier variants. I defo agree that in sim it needs a bigger engine variant to remain competitive. That being said some academics don’t think the turn radius on the Dva was great, and possibly close to the SE5a, suggesting that climbing and diving suited her better. I’ve had more luck fighting the 1PL Camels by avoiding flat turns.

 

Historically the wing strength was dubious in a dive, but she feels in game that a single bullet materially affects G force. A lot of my Dva kills are wing sheds. I can see why some of the Albi jocks stick to their own lines; at least then they have the option of bailing out.

 

If we had the upgraded engine and stronger wings she’d be a much better match for the Spad and Camel. Have you flown her much?

Edited by US93_Rummell

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1 minute ago, US93_Rummell said:

 Have you flown her much?


I probably have over 2000 MP hours in the Alb in RoF.  It’s a slow pig.

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55 minutes ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

I think using RoF as a benchmark is causing some of the issues here.

Despite the FM's theoretically being the same bar the Camel, none of the planes fly like the RoF counterparts.

The winners I'd say are the Camel and DVIIf, the rest are slightly worse performance-wise in some regard.

DVa's and Bristols don't roll quite as well as they did, Dr1 doesn't twitch quite as 'loosely', Spad doesn't dive quite as well, SE5 doesn't seem to hold energy as well.

I suppose the DVII and Pfalz are about as crappy.

 

I can only think the game engine itself is causing the difference, it feels like the 'atmosphere' is a bit thicker in the newer game engine.

And since it's newer, I'm prepared to accept that it's probably rendering a more realistic rendition of how these crates flew.

But obviously there's still a bit of tweaking to be done.

 

S!

You do know most if not all of us are happy with the FM's. It's the DM's we are complaining about. 1 shot taking out the wings on most of the planes or 1 burst taking out all of the controls. Totally under stand someone who fights ai wishes for it to stay like that just to make it more challenging Just because the ai are way too easy to fight, Hell the 20's have a practice mission with 5 waves of 16 ai at a time in a span of 30 mins. We usually finish it in 25 minutes with 3 of us fighting the ai.    

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On 7/31/2020 at 9:22 PM, Zooropa_Fly said:

Zoo Wings rarely shows pilots on the server list, when in fact there are.

 

Do you know why Zoo? Is it something the devs can acknowledge and help with? Whoops LOL sorry no go bro ....  for a second there I thought I was in WW2Jasonworld. Silly old me. 🙃

 

 

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Posted (edited)

In RoF you could use your roll rate in the Alb to outfly some camels, but it seems a lot more difficult to do so now.  Like someone said above, the atmosphere seems thicker than it was in RoF.

Edited by US63_SpadLivesMatter

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25 minutes ago, US63_SpadLivesMatter said:

In RoF you could use your roll rate in the Alb to outfly some camels, but it seems a lot more difficult to do so now.  Like someone said above, the atmosphere seems thicker than it was in RoF.

You can alter the air pressure in the atmosphere in the Mission Editor. I don't think that is the difference to RoF.

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1 hour ago, J99_Sizzlorr said:

You can alter the air pressure in the atmosphere in the Mission Editor. I don't think that is the difference to RoF.

 

I mean on an engine-based level.  It is felt more across the board.

 

Like comparing BoS at release, where it felt like flying in a vacuum, to now, where you can feel the air through the aircraft response.

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7 hours ago, US93_Rummell said:

Mr Bidu is fantastic with the Dr1 which is tanked now. Ask the same of someone who flies both sides and takes the Dva (me) and you’ll have a different perspective.

 

I was about to thank you at "fantastic" but then I noticed you were talking about somebody else... ;) just kidding of course. Respect for your flying the DVa. I find myself never wanting to. It is not only the DM. It's also 1918.

J2_Bidu (Jasta 2)
No
favorite coalition: No
favorite aircraft: S.E.5a
 

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44 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

Respect for your flying the DVa. 

 
 

 

Lol.  He flies the SE and Spad online.  He probably has less than 10 hours of Alby time online.

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Wow now I know how to take down a CL2, hit the fuselage to rip its wings off lol, Yup nothing wrong with this game.  

How far did the parachute go before you put holes in it lol?

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, BraveSirRobin said:

 

Lol.  He flies the SE and Spad online.  He probably has less than 10 hours of Alby time online.

I was flying the Dr1 before the DM change, then the Dva for about a week. After getting into a lot of very tough scrapes with the 1PL Camels (and sometimes getting them :-p) with my wings falling off EVERY time I got shot down I largely gave up. Starting learning the SE then Spad which I’m still trying to master with the help of Talbot and others. Which ww1 plane are you mastering online.. ooh right. Lol
 

Mr Bidu’s point about 1918 is an fair one. She was outclassed in 1918, but that adds to the challenge and satisfaction if you do nail a well flown Camel. I’ll happily hop back in if you want to team up and experience paper wings with me.

 

The best chaps to ask about Dva experience in MP will probably be the J5 crew. Daedalus and others have stuck by her week after week, to their credit.

Edited by US93_Rummell

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Wow, with your one week of Albatros experience, I'm surprised you haven't changed your name to US93_AlbatrosExperten.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

Wow, with your one week of Albatros experience, I'm surprised you haven't changed your name to US93_AlbatrosExperten.

What’s the prerequisite number of hours? More than BsR’s none presumably. My hours are split between FlugPark and a private dogfight training server. Probably about 1-2h a week flying either the Dva or Dviif on dogfight practice. That enough for you? I also never said the Dva was my best bird. That’s why I’ve suggested speaking to the J5  guys who put in serious Albi time or seeing how they respond to the recent DM poll. Daedalus has been up in her loads recently. Good chap!
 

SeaSerpent, do you fly much MP? I can’t see you on the J5 parser for the last two months under that name. I’d be happy to wing with you or sod about on a private dogfight server. I think you’re that IceAge dude who got a very impressive streak back in RoF in the Dviif?

Edited by US93_Rummell

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6 hours ago, US93_Rummell said:

Which ww1 plane are you mastering online.. ooh right. Lol
 


Here are a few of the profiles that I used on Wargrounds.  How about you tell me which aircraft you think I mastered.  K/D ratio is probably the best indicator.


http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/89988/
 

http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/80204/

 

http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/66104/

 

http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/13969/

 

http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/7291/

 

http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/20490/

 

http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/20366/

 

http://stats.newwingstraining.org/pilot/8990/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, US93_Rummell said:

 

SeaSerpent, do you fly much MP? I can’t see you on the J5 parser for the last two months under that name. I’d be happy to wing with you or sod about on a private dogfight server. I think you’re that IceAge dude who got a very impressive streak back in RoF in the Dviif?

 

I believe most of Ice Age kills from that streak were in the Alb, Se5 and 7F.

Edited by J5_Klugermann

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Posted (edited)

I think people may have forgetten how easy it was to crack your wings off in RoF, even without damage, but especially so after damage.  It was pretty bad.  When damaged, it was always wise policy to rtb, because you could never have confidence in the plane again, even if it looked minor.

 

RoF and FC are different in some ways, but I think the similarities are enough that experience gained in the former is relavent to the latter.   I understand, Rummel, why you might go down the path of "I've never seen you in MP Flying Circus, so you can't possibly know what you're talking about", but it isn't so simple.

 

Edited by SeaSerpent
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Well, I must say that the damage model in rise of flight feels a lot better.

I hope that the devs will fix it, or make it up to par with the RoF damage model.

 

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7 hours ago, SeaSerpent said:

I think people may have forgetten how easy it was to crack your wings off in RoF, even without damage, but especially so after damage.  It was pretty bad.  When damaged, it was always wise policy to rtb, because you could never have confidence in the plane again, even if it looked minor.

 

 

 

I would actually go back and test this in RoF problem is no G meter, I guess you could do it based on airspeed. But watch the video that just got posted with the german 2 seater, RoF was never close to that bad and you've shot down enough 2 seaters to know that.

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I think a lot of you guys need a different hobby. I have no idea what most of you do in the real world but to spend literally hours of your lives chewing the cud over something so broken, that's been broken for so long (invisible planes, DM from the 90s etc) truly beggars belief. Just my personal opinion of course, some think a handful of bullets invariably severing control lines and crumpling wings (if the plane can be seen) is legit.
 

 

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3 hours ago, Zooropa_Fly said:

You're still here commenting.

I check in occasionally to see if any miracles have occurred. Once in a blue moon I put on my VR and fire up the WW2 and waste a few Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Lightings (very frightening, boom boom). I think they should ditch this FC now and devote everything to the WW2 stuff, particularly the TC as that needs a lot of work. The WW2 air stuff is already very good.

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There is no point in continuing the DM discussion. Everything that can be said, has been said, about it. Que sera sera. You know, there is an old Russian proverb that, loosely translated, says "if you protest too much the KGB will fry your eggs with rusty electrodes and you will enjoy it, nyet?" Wise words. 

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16 hours ago, J3Hetzer said:

I check in occasionally to see if any miracles have occurred. Once in a blue moon I put on my VR and fire up the WW2 and waste a few Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Lightings (very frightening, boom boom). I think they should ditch this FC now and devote everything to the WW2 stuff, particularly the TC as that needs a lot of work. The WW2 air stuff is already very good.

BSR alternate account spotted.

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22 minutes ago, Tycoon said:

BSR alternate account spotted.

At least Hetzer does relies the DM is screwed and hopes they do fix it, just he'd rather them work on il2. I much prefer they work on FC. Far better game by a long shot. 

Plus it's the only up to date ww1 sim we have, There's a few ww2 sims out there and once MS has everything worked out in their sim I wouldn't be surprised they build a ww2 sim then maybe a more modern sim. Jet fighters. 

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54 minutes ago, NO.20_W_M_Thomson said:

. I much prefer they work on FC. Far better game by a long shot. 

 

I gotta be honest I don't see FC as a better game than il 2 at this point, It just feels like an overpriced cashgrab with a half hearted effort put in. I would actually say if not doing FC would have given us more ww2 stuff then why not, people might still be playing ROF,  however I seriously doubt the effort put into FC took much away from il 2 development. 

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1 hour ago, Tycoon said:

I gotta be honest I don't see FC as a better game than il 2 at this point, It just feels like an overpriced cashgrab with a half hearted effort put in. I would actually say if not doing FC would have given us more ww2 stuff then why not, people might still be playing ROF,  however I seriously doubt the effort put into FC took much away from il 2 development. 

Only reason il2 might be a bit better in my eyes anyway is because the DM in FC are messed up. If they wanted it to be a cash grab that's fine by me but fix it and they'll make more money. 

As it stands their not gonna make any more money with it. 

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6 hours ago, ST_Catchov said:

There is no point in continuing the DM discussion. Everything that can be said, has been said, about it. Que sera sera. You know, there is an old Russian proverb that, loosely translated, says "if you protest too much you will be traced and isolated by the WHO, they'll fry your immune system with a rusty needle containing monkley brains and baby fetal tissue - and you will enjoy it, nyet?" Wise words. 

 

Updated for you.

 

S!

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Posted (edited)
On 8/3/2020 at 3:00 AM, Tycoon said:

I would actually go back and test this in RoF problem is no G meter, I guess you could do it based on airspeed. But watch the video that just got posted with the german 2 seater, RoF was never close to that bad and you've shot down enough 2 seaters to know that.

 

The ROF manual has a performance chart in the 'useful information' page. It indicates the corner-speed for each aircraft. That is, the maximum airspeed at which you can pull maximum elevator without the (undamaged) wings falling off. Might be useful for comparing single-seaters without bomb loadouts. The reason that corner-speed is relative to airspeed rather than directly to 'g' is because the lift-vector rises relative to airspeed regardless of flight attitude.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Rail

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