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71st_AH_Hooves

.50 cal damage, or lack there of

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1 hour ago, ACG_Smokejumper said:

I've cut a lot of wings off 109s with the current .50s.

 

Yes, there is a reason "aim at wingtips" is a meme.

 

Its only place that has only one important and big hitbox to destroy, and that is a spar. Aileron is not able to stop or absorb most of fatal damage, so detaching wing tips with 50. cals is a legit way to kill 109. 

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50 minutes ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

 P-51 dont spawn because of the 'way it is configured right now'....

 

 

Is it the campaign that's configured to not spawn them or is it that, at least in the P-51's case the damn thing is modelled so unstable that auto-level can barely handle it - much less AI?

 

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Fixing the ammo belt issues on 202 and 109's is really really low hanging fruit, why it is not fixed in a hotfix? 

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its probably low priority on "to do" things, maybe next G lock update gets it.

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HAHA, if you replace all American 50 cals with HE rounds, even the Breda HE rounds, they will be PHOTON CANNONS OF DOOT! 

 

The HE, to put it mildly, is very effective to reduce aerodynamic performance of the plane... 

one small hit from German MG's HE on p-51's tail usually is enough to make it not fly straight. 

Edited by Cpt_Siddy
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thats whyt happend when you buff HE for no reason... but this sounds like glass tail problem here so"fix" is same as for 109 glass tail... make p-51 undestructable and vola

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6 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Is it the campaign that's configured to not spawn them or is it that, at least in the P-51's case the damn thing is modelled so unstable that auto-level can barely handle it - much less AI?

 

 

Hmmm, I have a P-51 career going and apart from the puny .50 and the coolant that oveeheats VERY quickly, I like how the plane feels. Avoid taking off with max load fuel. More often than not 50% will be enough. The Mustang was known as being tricky to fly when loaded with fuel. 

 

Oh and yes, it does become unflyable as soon as the tail is damaged though.

 

The P-51 and the P-38 will never spawn if you fly german. Its totally unrealistic and makes the career extremely redundant, and its been the case since the game was released. Either the devs have known it from the start and didnt fix it, or they just dont know it at all or have learn about it lately and still have to fix the issue. At any rate, its totally unnacceptable. Lukeff lately told me 'they dont spawn because of the way the game is configured'. Ok? FIX IT. At least show that you care a little bit damn it.

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In the  p51 it is very hard to find the right balance between wing chainsaw and pew pew peanuts. The only sure thing is the big amount of ammo.
My recent personnal experience is rather mixed. On one side I was able to make pilot kills at 500 m, on the other side being unable to kill rapidly and decisevely a plane being right on his tail in convergence range.

So my advice for the moment is to try to  aim at the fuselage: pilot and engine, not on the wings. You can open fire at bigger range and shoot longer trying to squeeze a lucky hit.

I have read  historical evidence about p51 being particularly deadly with their armour piercing rounds, no visual damage on the plane but the pilot is killed.

Edited by JG27_Kornezov

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12 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

 

Hmmm, I have a P-51 career going and apart from the puny .50 and the coolant that oveeheats VERY quickly, I like how the plane feels. Avoid taking off with max load fuel. More often than not 50% will be enough. The Mustang was known as being tricky to fly when loaded with fuel. 

 

Oh and yes, it does become unflyable as soon as the tail is damaged though.

 

The P-51 and the P-38 will never spawn if you fly german. Its totally unrealistic and makes the career extremely redundant, and its been the case since the game was released. Either the devs have known it from the start and didnt fix it, or they just dont know it at all or have learn about it lately and still have to fix the issue. At any rate, its totally unnacceptable. Lukeff lately told me 'they dont spawn because of the way the game is configured'. Ok? FIX IT. At least show that you care a little bit damn it.

 

Yes, I know about the P-51 fuel load requirements.  I was wondering if the "game was configured" to prevent the P-51 from spawning so the AI doesn't have a spaz trying to keep it under control.   

I could only imagine that the P-38 might not historically belong in certain sectors of the Rheinland theater or certain weeks/months of the campaign - or certain German units available to the campaign never encountered any.  That's only a wild guess though as I have not invoked the powers of "research" to back that statement.

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9 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

Yes, I know about the P-51 fuel load requirements.  I was wondering if the "game was configured" to prevent the P-51 from spawning so the AI doesn't have a spaz trying to keep it under control.   

I could only imagine that the P-38 might not historically belong in certain sectors of the Rheinland theater or certain weeks/months of the campaign - or certain German units available to the campaign never encountered any.  That's only a wild guess though as I have not invoked the powers of "research" to back that statement.

 

My wingmen when I fly p-51 are not doing worse than in any other plane. The AI isnt the reason why it doesnt spawn. I have no clue what they mean by 'configuration problem'. Its certainely not a type of missions available related problem because there's a lot of intercept bombers scrambles (A-20s or B-25s) when flying Dora/262 kommando Nowotny so it would be logical to have a Mustang escort as your enemy but instead its Tempests Tempests Tempests which doesnt make sense. I myself do a lot of escort bombers missions when flying the mustang. I really dont understand why they wont spawn when flying german and why it isnt fixed yet after a whole year and 9 updates. 

 

As for the P-38, I'm not sure how widely it was used in Bodenplatte in late 44/45, Im pretty sure it was still used to perform recon missions at least. And you can yourself have a P-38 career in Bodenplatte (I flew P-38 before switching to Mustang in early 45) so it must be historically accurate? So they should at least sporadically spawn when flying german?

Edited by I./JG52_Woutwocampe

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Related problem: AI does not break off the attack after suffering serious damage (smoke, fuel&coolant leak, unstable flight behaviour due to wing/control surface damage) but instead continues to attack you at all cost even at the cost of imminent demise.

 

Combine that with the insufficient damage modelling of the .50 and you end up having to do attack run after attack on already crippled foes just to finish them off, because this is the only way to make sure that they do not keep attacking you.

 

If the AI would, like a normal human being, fly home after their plane has obviously suffered critical damage and only has a few minutes of flight time remaining, the damage issue would not be so stark...

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21 minutes ago, airacobrafan said:

Related problem: AI does not break off the attack after suffering serious damage (smoke, fuel&coolant leak, unstable flight behaviour due to wing/control surface damage) but instead continues to attack you at all cost even at the cost of imminent demise.

 

Combine that with the insufficient damage modelling of the .50 and you end up having to do attack run after attack on already crippled foes just to finish them off, because this is the only way to make sure that they do not keep attacking you.

 

If the AI would, like a normal human being, fly home after their plane has obviously suffered critical damage and only has a few minutes of flight time remaining, the damage issue would not be so stark...

Yeah, totally same in MP where player can stay in fight if he plays 109 even though hes leaking everything. Wings, tail and engine are damaged. He'll have almost same controls of plane and player in P-51? P-47? Good luck if you wont snipe pilot in turn as you currently cant kill pilot from dead 6o'clock or if 109 pilot wont ditch it from super high AoA trying to abuse broken 109 FM. Penetrated water cooling should result in engine failure extremely fast as water in open circuit starts to boil extremely quickly. 

For example, this is monster BS, no fire even though i made hits to fuel tank, bullets flew in and above fuel tank, yet pilot is still ok (hes having only 10mm effective armor glass here). Water leaks from both wing radiators, bullets going through tail controls and wounded pilot. B109 still maneuvers like being hit with only few 12.7HE round from UB, probably something like 2-4 hits from UB would cause this. Yet i made 126 hits. that equals into 21-31 20MM AP bullets in weight on target. IIRC, each tracer is 6th bullet in belt so that means 5 bullets impacting between each tracer impact, its almost guaranteed to land 2-3 bullets close enough to get through armor plating of fuel tank. Yet BF109 died due to stall while trying to abuse AOA on 109s broken FM.

 

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42 minutes ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Yeah, totally same in MP where player can stay in fight if he plays 109 even though hes leaking everything. Wings, tail and engine are damaged. He'll have almost same controls of plane and player in P-51? P-47? Good luck if you wont snipe pilot in turn as you currently cant kill pilot from dead 6o'clock or if 109 pilot wont ditch it from super high AoA trying to abuse broken 109 FM. Penetrated water cooling should result in engine failure extremely fast as water in open circuit starts to boil extremely quickly. 

For example, this is monster BS, no fire even though i made hits to fuel tank, bullets flew in and above fuel tank, yet pilot is still ok (hes having only 10mm effective armor glass here). Water leaks from both wing radiators, bullets going through tail controls and wounded pilot. B109 still maneuvers like being hit with only few 12.7HE round from UB, probably something like 2-4 hits from UB would cause this. Yet i made 126 hits. that equals into 21-31 20MM AP bullets in weight on target. IIRC, each tracer is 6th bullet in belt so that means 5 bullets impacting between each tracer impact, its almost guaranteed to land 2-3 bullets close enough to get through armor plating of fuel tank. Yet BF109 died due to stall while trying to abuse AOA on 109s broken FM.

 

 

Laughed at the music 😄 Maybe, you know, Germans were aces because they had bf 109 😄 There must be also a reason why it was the most manufactured plane after IL-2, you know, if it was bad they would had not manufactured it 😄

 

But seriously, is there something lacking in damage modelling when compared to CoD or original IL-2? I haven't played much this BoX series yet but it seems I only take damage which wounds the pilot or the engine, making the engine cease eventually.

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53 minutes ago, =DMD=Honza said:

Yeah, totally same in MP where player can stay in fight if he plays 109 even though hes leaking everything. Wings, tail and engine are damaged. He'll have almost same controls of plane and player in P-51? P-47? Good luck if you wont snipe pilot in turn as you currently cant kill pilot from dead 6o'clock or if 109 pilot wont ditch it from super high AoA trying to abuse broken 109 FM. Penetrated water cooling should result in engine failure extremely fast as water in open circuit starts to boil extremely quickly. 

For example, this is monster BS, no fire even though i made hits to fuel tank, bullets flew in and above fuel tank, yet pilot is still ok (hes having only 10mm effective armor glass here). Water leaks from both wing radiators, bullets going through tail controls and wounded pilot. B109 still maneuvers like being hit with only few 12.7HE round from UB, probably something like 2-4 hits from UB would cause this. Yet i made 126 hits. that equals into 21-31 20MM AP bullets in weight on target. IIRC, each tracer is 6th bullet in belt so that means 5 bullets impacting between each tracer impact, its almost guaranteed to land 2-3 bullets close enough to get through armor plating of fuel tank. Yet BF109 died due to stall while trying to abuse AOA on 109s broken FM.

 

meanwhile 2x13mm guns do wonders on 51 tail:

 

But hey only 109 gets quick fix to tail 😄

Edited by CountZero
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2 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

Laughed at the music 😄 Maybe, you know, Germans were aces because they had bf 109 😄 There must be also a reason why it was the most manufactured plane after IL-2, you know, if it was bad they would had not manufactured it 😄

 

But seriously, is there something lacking in damage modelling when compared to CoD or original IL-2? I haven't played much this BoX series yet but it seems I only take damage which wounds the pilot or the engine, making the engine cease eventually.

The reason of numbers is simple, They were built for how long, 10 years? In mid war, 109s were extremely underperforming compared to allied fighters. Good example is D-Day. 150octane 51s, P38s, P47s, spitfirte mk IXs and griffons against mainly BF109G6 with or without MW-50 and 190A8s. The problem currently is partialy disabled tail ddmg model of 109 which soaks up all damage and obviously wont let pass bullets through it to cockpit or fuel tank. Next thing is, if you take free cam and go into 109 tail, its hollow and MW-50 tank is missing which is huge fire bomb. Combine that with lacking damage from .50s and lacking basically all aero damage, youll get absolutely useless weapons and titanium made 109 that have broken FM, tail made from steel and unkillable pilot from 6oclock. 

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1 minute ago, CountZero said:

meanwhile 2x13mm guns do wonders on 51 tail:

 

But hey only 109 gets quick fix to tail 😄

yeah, this is massive joke. Whole hmgs equiped with HEs are total jokes. BF109 is meme.. its not even joke anymore. Fun is that i flew sortie in 109 where i flew in straight line and i just took damage and flew away. This is best defense as P51 simply cant kill you in 90% of times from that position and its better to take damage and fly away. 

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The Mustang becomes totally unflyable after taking some damage to the tail section. Unrecoverable nose dive. Most planes are hard to control after taking damage to some degree to the tail but for the Mustang, its pathetic, you take a few HE rounds to your tail and you better hope you have enough time to bail out.

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19 hours ago, =DMD=Honza said:

 

 

 

I am honestly surprised he did not do some crazy arse stunt and killed you.  As you can tell by the ocasional negative G stick jerking, there is ace-in-making sitting in the cocpit. 

Ive seen plenty 109's doing exactly this and doing cobra and hitting your tail. 

 

But in all seriousness, this is just Netcode McLearn2Aim situation, man, its your fault for not hitting the wing tips. You know you had plenty of opportunities to aim for them. 

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Even if it is just netcode.

 

 It'd be lovely if they could find a work around to compensate.

 

18 hours ago, I./JG52_Woutwocampe said:

The Mustang becomes totally unflyable after taking some damage to the tail section. Unrecoverable nose dive. Most planes are hard to control after taking damage to some degree to the tail but for the Mustang, its pathetic, you take a few HE rounds to your tail and you better hope you have enough time to bail out.

Things that cause 120kmh speed loss. 12x50kg bombs and their racks NO

P38 speed brakes NO.

Losing 109 wheel well covers. (Which are of a larger area than most of 20mm hole I've seen btw.) NO

1x 20mm hit YES.

It's like the devs decided that the typical 50 cal hit is a neat 50 cal hole, and a typical 20mm hit is that one cherry-picked picture where the shell has caused every single panel of the wing to flower petal out. The one that is trotted out by wehraboos every time minegeschoss effectiveness is discussed.

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We also want recoil in 50's A/C's but first fix the other more game killler stuff please. Even that a bit of data for the recoil

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Tatata_Time said:

We also want recoil in 50's A/C's but first fix the other more game killler stuff please. Even that a bit of data for the recoil

 

 

 

Damn cool stuff, I would say looks like remarkably stable platform, especially when it is flying and the momentum is countering like even recoil forces on both wings.

 

Would also not like to be in a plane being peppered by those 50. cals roflmao 😄

Edited by messsucher

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4 hours ago, Cpt_Siddy said:

But in all seriousness, this is just Netcode McLearn2Aim situation, man, its your fault for not hitting the wing tips. You know you had plenty of opportunities to aim for them. 

 

Same durability can be observed even offline. Feel free to test for yourself. :)

 

The .50s are peashooters vs. what we get with other weapons in-game now. The whole system needs adjusting.

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1 hour ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Yes they did. In fact pilots first firing the 8 .303s of the hurricane remarked how the recoil was felt. 
 

Anyway, I'm not saying 50 cals are superior to 20mm for a2a combat, the 20mm is a superior choice, but it's about proportionality, and representing that slight difference in effectiveness in the sim. 

At the Moment the 20mm (of all countries) are massively more effective than the 50 cal.

The gap in capability shouldn't be so wide.

 

 

Yeah.

 

But I can't really say anything. I have a feeling that things are too easy to shoot down in BoX. I shot things down in my first missions and I had like 8 years break of IL-2. I have a strong feeling it was harder in CoD and original IL-2. I have been shot down once, but ow I don't really even care of CPU planes. They are not a threat, like they were in IL-2.

 

BoX and Original IL-2 are a bit like apples and oranges. But what is realistic? I seriously think it was unrealistic for me to shoot things down right away in BoX. Just saying, not complaining, these days must be happy of what can get.

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36 minutes ago, messsucher said:

 

I seriously think it was unrealistic for me to shoot things down right away in BoX. Just saying, not complaining, these days must be happy of what can get.

Yeah I'm with you on that, but in isolation that's true, but comparing HE and AP side by side the AP is sooooooo much less 'good' it's a wonder why any rounds were not totally HE.

In fact germany stopped using HE 131s by mid 44

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38 minutes ago, messsucher said:

But I can't really say anything. I have a feeling that things are too easy to shoot down in BoX. I shot things down in my first missions and I had like 8 years break of IL-2. I have a strong feeling it was harder in CoD and original IL-2. I have been shot down once, but ow I don't really even care of CPU planes. They are not a threat, like they were in IL-2.

 

Same impression, and I have been flying BOX from almost day 1.

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4 minutes ago, 71st_AH_Barnacles said:

Yeah I'm with you on that, but in isolation that's true, but comparing HE and AP side by side the AP is sooooooo much less 'good' it's a wonder why any rounds were not totally HE.

In fact germany stopped using HE 131s by mid 44

12.7 or 13 HE of any nation is so mutch better then american AP, i try them in mod just replaced american AP with russian 12.7HE.

So its not oh 0.50 is so bad compared to 20mm or 30mm , or they need to kill tigers and so on ... like some would like to distort this.

AP amo of same caliber is nothing compared to what HE ammo of that same calibar is able to do to airplanes, and if this is representation of reality why would anyone use anything els then HE in ww2.

 

Here in game only ammo 131 fire is HE, so so mutch for ralistic represantation if they didnt use HE on it since mid 44, when it comes to ammo and engines this game is basic at best. It worked untill 4.005 but then they had to mess up DMs and now you have mess here and especialy in FC since then.

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2 hours ago, CountZero said:

 

Here in game only ammo 131 fire is HE, so so mutch for ralistic represantation if they didnt use HE on it since mid 44, when it comes to ammo and engines this game is basic at best. It worked untill 4.005 but then they had to mess up DMs and now you have mess here and especialy in FC since then.

Exactly. G-14, K4 and D9s should use only AP ammo until API ammo comes into game.

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On 9/23/2020 at 6:19 PM, CountZero said:

thats whyt happend when you buff HE for no reason... but this sounds like glass tail problem here so"fix" is same as for 109 glass tail... make p-51 undestructable and vola

 

 

Your posts are all exaggeration and lies.

 

Mustangs have never had a"glass" tail. No aircraft has had you tumbling end over end with two horizontal stabs gone like the 109s did. I fly both sides and all the fighters. You lie and exaggerate so often I can literally discard all your opinions as trash.

 

If I was a developer I'd ignore anything you say. You catch more flies with honey mate.

On 9/18/2020 at 9:42 AM, [DBS]TH0R said:

 

Biased much?

 

Facts:

  • .50 cals are missing API rounds
  • 109 tail section DM is indestructible (WIP)
  • same lack of effectiveness reproduced offline where net code is not an issue

 

Therefore it is reasonable to expect changes that will and should, make .50 cals more lethal and effective in the near future.

 

 

Bullet point No1. How is it you think API will help if there is nothing modeled to burn? I already get fuel tank fires on 109s with the current AP. I don't get fuel system fires, oil fires nor do we cause damage to guns, ammo, landing gear hydraulics etc etc.

 

The .50 as lethal if you hit the hitboxes for critical parts or the pilot. The problem is there is a lot of other critical parts your bullets should be hitting but there is nothing there but a calculation on how many hits for a surface to fall off.

On 9/22/2020 at 9:51 PM, Cpt_Siddy said:

 

 

Take a note on a ground strafing, how dispersed the fire is. Even if it is out of convergence, the dispersion is still more like shotgun and less like our two intersecting beams we got now. Our problems with our current iteration of 50 cals are not singular issue, but a compound of myriad things, all working in consort to make USAAF pilots game experience somewhat frustrating. Especially if you have much flight time on VVS or Axis planes and you compare your experiences with them. 

The hispanos are only saving grace west front allied have right now. 

 

PS: don't cross the streams :^) 

 

 

Agreed Siddy. There is so much more than just upping the .50 damage output.

On 9/22/2020 at 2:51 AM, CountZero said:

From combatbox server topic:

 

https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/log/913976/?tour=26

 

Pure example how after 4.005 AP is good just to warn enemy he should check his 6. On top you get pure HE ammo to pk that same guy LOL and it was perfect bounce, just noob mistake of using american airplane in this game insted anything els lol

If this is what WW2 guns can do and this is how powerfull HE ammo was compared to AP why in the world anyone used anything els then HE ammo. 

Even before 4.005 HE ammo was so good, but after it its just comical what they did to widen devide betwen AP and HE, and its only two ammo types to model in game, not dozens or more, and its this mess lol

 

 

 

Another craptastic post. You can literally see the .50s flash over both wings because the Mustang pilot fired too close and DID NOT OFFSET AIM. He put the pipper on the fuslage and fired right over the wings. Had he offset his aim he would have had 3x.50s firing right up the fuselage probably killing the pilot.

 

This is an example of bad gunnery not an example to prove your point.

 

Do you struggle with the concept of wing mounted gunnery?

 

You aim at a point out in front of you at your convergence give or take 20 yards tops. If you fire too far or too close most bullets miss sailing harmlessly over the wings unless you offset your aim. A lot of pilots set their convergence to 400M or other crazy distances. If you set it so far but like to fire close like your example you are going to miss, a lot.

Edited by ACG_Smokejumper
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On 9/25/2020 at 7:54 AM, =DMD=Honza said:

Yeah, totally same in MP where player can stay in fight if he plays 109 even though hes leaking everything. Wings, tail and engine are damaged. He'll have almost same controls of plane and player in P-51? P-47? Good luck if you wont snipe pilot in turn as you currently cant kill pilot from dead 6o'clock or if 109 pilot wont ditch it from super high AoA trying to abuse broken 109 FM. Penetrated water cooling should result in engine failure extremely fast as water in open circuit starts to boil extremely quickly. 

For example, this is monster BS, no fire even though i made hits to fuel tank, bullets flew in and above fuel tank, yet pilot is still ok (hes having only 10mm effective armor glass here). Water leaks from both wing radiators, bullets going through tail controls and wounded pilot. B109 still maneuvers like being hit with only few 12.7HE round from UB, probably something like 2-4 hits from UB would cause this. Yet i made 126 hits. that equals into 21-31 20MM AP bullets in weight on target. IIRC, each tracer is 6th bullet in belt so that means 5 bullets impacting between each tracer impact, its almost guaranteed to land 2-3 bullets close enough to get through armor plating of fuel tank. Yet BF109 died due to stall while trying to abuse AOA on 109s broken FM.

 

 

 

Convergence settings? Looks like you forgot to offset aim for wing guns and a lot of the bullets struck areas where there there is nothing to damage. You even blew off his landing gear covers. That should probably have smashed hydraulics and have the K4 dangling gear making him easy meat for you.

 

It's DM way more than the .50.s

 

There should variables on setting a fuel tank on fire but I have no clue if it's modeled. A full tank is less prone to burst into flames over a more empty one. Again no clue if that is modeled.

 

A common theme to the videos as evidence is piss poor gunnery and a lot of bullets flying over wings or into wings where critical damage should be delivered but nothing happened because there is nothing modeled to damage.

 

I've been bombing a lot but I fly Mustangs and don't seem to have the same lvl of frustration.

 

https://combatbox.net/en/pilot/571/ACG_Smokejumper/?tour=26

 

 

https://combatbox.net/en/sortie/log/902174/?tour=26

 

In this sortie I got ground strafe kills and air kills. Why is a field artillery piece easier to kill than an aircraft? All of a sudden .50s don't suck.

 

Probably has a different DM.

Edited by ACG_Smokejumper
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Yes your right, my apologies for missunderstanding the game, ill learn to aim if i wont to play with P-51 online, i dont see any problems exept maybe ones you raised in your posts, but its no biggy.

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8 minutes ago, CountZero said:

Yes your right, my apologies for missunderstanding the game, ill learn to aim if i wont to play with P-51 online, i dont see any problems exept maybe ones you raised in your posts, but its no biggy.

 

There are a lot of problems and if we are open and honest about them we can bring them to developer attention in a civilized manner and hopefully get the repairs we need done.

Yelling and screaming just closes dialogue. Exaggeration just hurts our case.

 

You and I can surely agree that we just want the best game possible. I don't like the lack of depth in DM making my .50s less effective any more than you do.

 

I think with a fully immersive DM the fights will be even more fun. Maybe even longer with a more varied way of getting shot down other than fire, dead or missing wing.

 

Anyway, thanks for the bantz was fun until we annoyed admin into deleting our fun flame war. Have a great day man and see you up there!

Edited by ACG_Smokejumper
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On 9/26/2020 at 10:41 PM, ACG_Smokejumper said:

 

 

Convergence settings? Looks like you forgot to offset aim for wing guns and a lot of the bullets struck areas where there there is nothing to damage. You even blew off his landing gear covers. That should probably have smashed hydraulics and have the K4 dangling gear making him easy meat for you.

 

 

 

I have been reading reports from p-47 and in many of the cases in which the said the enemy plane exploded, they mentioned getting strikes "all over".

126hits of 0.5 is the equivalent of (being very conservative) of a minimum of 20 hits of 20mm. According to Lw and US Navy is would be like 36 hits of 20mm.

When you hit 100+ times with 12.5 ammo, convergence is completely irrelevant. At lest it was in real life.

If the DM is simple and is part of the problem then they should work a "patch" until they can provide the correct simulation.

 

Edited by HR_Zunzun
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On 9/25/2020 at 11:54 AM, =DMD=Honza said:

Yeah, totally same in MP where player can stay in fight if he plays 109 even though hes leaking everything. Wings, tail and engine are damaged. He'll have almost same controls of plane and player in P-51? P-47? Good luck if you wont snipe pilot in turn as you currently cant kill pilot from dead 6o'clock or if 109 pilot wont ditch it from super high AoA trying to abuse broken 109 FM. Penetrated water cooling should result in engine failure extremely fast as water in open circuit starts to boil extremely quickly. 

For example, this is monster BS, no fire even though i made hits to fuel tank, bullets flew in and above fuel tank, yet pilot is still ok (hes having only 10mm effective armor glass here). Water leaks from both wing radiators, bullets going through tail controls and wounded pilot. B109 still maneuvers like being hit with only few 12.7HE round from UB, probably something like 2-4 hits from UB would cause this. Yet i made 126 hits. that equals into 21-31 20MM AP bullets in weight on target. IIRC, each tracer is 6th bullet in belt so that means 5 bullets impacting between each tracer impact, its almost guaranteed to land 2-3 bullets close enough to get through armor plating of fuel tank. Yet BF109 died due to stall while trying to abuse AOA on 109s broken FM.

 

just for comparison

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Propaganda videos are not a reliable source because of obvious reasons. The reason being that clips are selected to give the viewer impression of superior power. In other words propaganda videos tell what can happen at best with results of aerial gunnery RNG. They tell nothing what happened on average.

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That is true, however this video shows both cases in which they get hit by a "perfect" burst and also cases like the 190 hit with some bullets here and there and still flying (only the canopy flew off, maybe due to a hit or the pilot preparing to bail)

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11 minutes ago, alpino said:

That is true, however this video shows both cases in which they get hit by a "perfect" burst and also cases like the 190 hit with some bullets here and there and still flying (only the canopy flew off, maybe due to a hit or the pilot preparing to bail)

 

There are many variables in that. What was the condition of said aircraft? How was the structural fatigue in the plane? How well it was built in the first place? What was the quality of metal? What kind of maneuvers it did before the shooting?

 

I though agree on that perfect shots on close range can be devastating.

1 hour ago, SAS_Storebror said:

I hate to say but the fact that the "P-51 tail damage" thread was moved tothe "technical issues & bug reports" subforum and a fix got announced, in return tells me that the cal .50s are not even considered a bug by the devs yet.

The worst of the worst coming true?

It's not a bug, it's a feature?

Aim harder?

 

:drink2:

Mike

 

We don't know yet. There is not enough evidence to say that something is clearly wrong.

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These are probably better sources if you fancy a lot of reading:

 

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/p-47/p-47-encounter-reports.html

 

Of course these are subjective but they all paint a similar picture so it's safe to draw some conclusions from them. Bare in mind they are expected to be honest in the classified reports to allow analysts to understand weapon effectiveness. 

 

Fundamentally we are missing quite a few factors that mean 50s aren't as effective as they should be. I'm not sure what the devs have in mind to fix this (hopefully API and the fuelling system gives them a bit more punch), but judging by some of the performance issues there are in certain areas, I'm reluctant to think that a complex system modelling of the DM is on the horizon. The 109s wings are filled with components and systems, which meant that your rounds were unlikely to just travel straight through. If that was the case a single round is unlikely to cause much aero damage, it would take a decent number of hits for that to effect under those circumstances. What mostly happened was something vital and more solid was hit and this would rupture, rip off or even explode and you would have the effects you see in the gun cam footage. The fact that that a .50 AP round would happily go straight through the tail and into the pilot unless it hit something hefty (and I would assume vital) is something that also needs to be taken into account. 

 

Something simple to add would be damage to the slats and the systems that operate them. This would massively hamper the LW planes low speed performance and would make the annoying low speed reversal after 50+ hits a lot less viable. 

 

The frustrating part is no-one is looking for 50s to be OP. They are at a disadvantage compared to centre mounted cannons and always should be. I've had plenty of fights where I've dropped <15 round into a plane and seen them go up in flames or get a pk. The problem lies in the other fights where you put 50 rounds into the tail, wing mounts or cooling system and see the plane fly with little to no disadvantage. BnZ without a massive energy overhead in the US planes is a risky game because you can absolutely clobber someone and still see them be combat effective. 

 

 

Edited by Cass
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As others have posted, the general problem seems to be more related to the DM than the .50s effectiveness.

From the guncam video posted it is clear that when explosions occur it is because something got hit. Fw-190 wing ammo gets hit, wing explodes violently and suddenly. MW-50 or fuel tank in the Fw-190 and Bf 109 gets hit, it explodes violently and so on (but remember upper and lower explosion limits in the tanks - they don‘t always explode or burn necessarily). 
Before the explosions happen you can see the rounds chewing off the skin and hammering the structures. The less spectacular guncam footage usually has the German planes damaged to a level they end up ditching or crashing, simply with no huge visible damage or fireballs.
 

It would be great to have a more detailed system damage model in this game, more akin of what CloD has.
The way I see it structural damage is already there, heritage of RoF wooden planes.


On a more general note:

 

In BoS the hit and damage effects for cannons (which I use) are IMHO overdone, so you get the impression the plane is about to go down leaking from even the wingtips with multiple streams of dark and light smoke / fluids coming off, but continues flying and fighting. Hitting the target also seems relatively easy, with most rounds hitting the same spot with those huge gray smoke puffs coming out. As if the aircraft were perfectly stable fun platforms (no recoil, almost no dispersion).

 

And being on the receiving end of .50 cals and others in a 109, usually one well placed burst is enough to cripple the plane beyond even trying to fight back. Of course the 4x 20 mm from a Tempest will usually do more damage than the .50 cals.

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