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WB_jokkr

The issue with VR is not the magnification

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9 hours ago, Hextopia said:

I just wanted to step in and say I've been flying IL-2 off and on for a few years in VR, and It's always taken a backseat for me (and many others) specifically because of how many glaring issues there are in VR that the 3DMIGOTO mod fixed. (ASW prop artifacts, obscene sun glare that washes out the display if the sun is anywhere in your FOV, sun glare coming through the canopy frame because it's only detected for occlusion on one eye but not the other, artificial head movement constraints putting a few inches of invisible forcefield around the cockpit glass that you can't approach, terrible and ineffective zoom with no options to customize/change it to make it more useful, etc.)

 

Having those issues fixed by MIGOTO actually made IL-2 fun to fly in (with the exception of the ridiculously tight head constraints.  Makes you want to tear your hair out when you can't look behind yourself in a few fighters like the -190's since you're almost completely prevented from moving your head sideways around the seat, even though the same restriction doesn't feel like it exists when flying with trackir)

 

As it stands, there's always DCS for VR flight.  Even though it's not really the same type of flight sim, they do take VR user experience seriously and make it a point to improve performance and respond to VR user feedback in a timely manner.  It's been how many years of the same issues for IL-2?  And the only thing that's been addressed was one half-step forward with 2 steps backward.

 

They have fixed for the most part both prop artifacts from ASW and now the Zoom level.

They also have improved VR performance by quite a bit since they first started supporting it in 2017.

I never cared for the head constraints myself, but being SP guy I just don't have that option enabled.

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Posted (edited)

I'm super happy with the VR support in Il2, but tbh I don't fly on the MP servers with the strict rule sets (so I can just put my head outside of the plane if I feel like it, also just really cool to do). Mostly because I adore the 4K cockpit mod (super important for VR!) and you need to fly with mods on for that. BUT regarding the looking back thing, I fly on my office chair, and I find that swiveling around makes it quite easy to look 180 degrees back.

 

Indeed still the fact that your head seems to be the size of two water melons is unfortunate, but it's not so bad that it becomes unflyable. Perhaps making our virtual heads the size of 1 water melon could make it into the next patch :)

 

Cheers,

Benjamin

Edited by blue_max
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, [CPT]Crunch said:

As I recall you went full out trying to eliminate the viewing system now relegated as the enhanced view setting. 

Alternate Visibility? I don’t think it’s a very good feature. Furthermore the idea of having two visibility modes isn’t feasible for multiplayer. 
 

Everyone is free to have an opinion. I may disagree but I don’t tell anyone they can’t post on the topic.

Edited by SharpeXB
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Please let migoto mod back again. The VR zoom in the sim is hardly useful to id (at least in a Oddissey+, cannot speak for other headsets).

It takes ages to long to properly id somehting, by then, you probably got an enemy on you.

I don't feel like playing much this way, it feels like I am a shortsighted pilot...

 

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Posted (edited)

I hooked up my Lenavo headset to try out the new zoom features and I found I'm just as bad Iding planes in vr as I am on my triple screens :)

I don't fly vr, I get sick in 10 minutes of it, never could get over it.

Edited by exlax
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On 5/29/2020 at 10:45 PM, JG51_jokkr said:

VR makes you feel like your flying, not playing a game. Its great fun, doing a takeoff, a landing, doing formation flying with a wingman and other aviation activities that are in my opinion greatly superior to using my monitor.  The headsets really immerse me in the feeling of aviating.

 

Exacty that.

I enjoy IL-2 just by the sense of flying, even without shooting a single bullet. But of course, throwing some bullets from time to time is part of the mission.

Maybe is a cultural thing. My 13-yr son can not enjoy a game if it is not an online game with many players and some friends.

 

I am just a SP guy. I tried once MP just to know what it is. I was quickly shutted down.

Perhaps in my deeper me I am very competitive and will not want to measure me against other real people. Because I will most likely loose.

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1 hour ago, SCG_Jordi said:

Please let migoto mod back again. The VR zoom in the sim is hardly useful to id (at least in a Oddissey+, cannot speak for other headsets).

It takes ages to long to properly id somehting, by then, you probably got an enemy on you.

I don't feel like playing much this way, it feels like I am a shortsighted pilot...

 

 

Is that due to how it is projecting the sim in the Odyssey? If so maybe perhaps the Devs can address it a little further, I think Pimax is having issues with the new zoom also. I personally

find the new zoom level to be very good in my Rift S, and as I fly SP only I will probably start using it some whereas I did not so much with the original zoom.

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So Sharp, where in Texas?

 

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3 hours ago, JG51_jokkr said:

So Sharp, where in Texas?

 

Dallas 👍

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17 hours ago, dburne said:

 

Is that due to how it is projecting the sim in the Odyssey? If so maybe perhaps the Devs can address it a little further, I think Pimax is having issues with the new zoom also. I personally

find the new zoom level to be very good in my Rift S, and as I fly SP only I will probably start using it some whereas I did not so much with the original zoom.

I think is due to the resolution of the Odyssey+. With the new headsets with higher pixels per eye, the in-game zoom might be just fine. 

 

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I have been playing IL-2 exclusively on VR with DK2, CV1, Oculus Rift S and now Valve Index. I play MP only on servers like Wings of Liberty and Combat Box. Was clocking more hours more recently during CV-19. I must say that (i) developers have improved the VR experience substantially over the years (objective fact) and (ii) while there are some limitations in VR I feel that I can „keep up“ with my VR on MP servers against most players. For sure since quality of Oculus Rift S generation of devices. Now I have been using the mod obviously, but even now after the patch I do feel that I can be competitive and am competitive in my online flights. I mean spotting is challenging also on 2D monitor and Id‘ing is not always about only seeing the plane but is a much wider topic of adding up position, direction of flight, properties / acceleration of the „dot“ to properly identify who is who. Yes, it is now harder to Id the planes without the mod as you have much less „zoom“. Does that mean that I will stop playing MP because I am now „handicapped“? Absolutely no. Did I chase couple of friendlies and almost shoot one by mistake? Yes, but now you just need to be more sure before opening fire and friendly fire has been occurring in RL often enough, e.g. P40 mistaken for 109, Fw for La-5 etc. The change to my online performance after the patch is within the range of fluctuation I have on different days due to my flying skills, tactical ability and gunnery etc. We should not forget also the advantages VR brings in general of both having better spatial comprehension (much better gunnery!) and just the awesome feeling of actually being in a warbird. Plus it will be come only better: As the developers have demonstrated and proven over the years the VR experience in IL-2 substantially improves over time. This is an objective fact, demonstrated as recently as the new VR zoom rolled out on a very expedite timeline by the developers. So I urge everybody to continue to be optimistic, play the game, provide constructive feedback on the forums and support the team by buying planes and expansions. 

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2D is a game, VR is flying.  And if you think spotting in VR is unrealistic, look up the statistics on friendly fire during WW2 - IMO any zoom is unrealistic!

 

Kirk

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13 hours ago, SCG_Jordi said:

I think is due to the resolution of the Odyssey+. With the new headsets with higher pixels per eye, the in-game zoom might be just fine. 

 

Samsung has a wider variance of alignment issues hardware wise in it's HMD's, it was bad enough to call for a customizable alignment app in that other un-named sim.  It allowed software values to shift the image in both vertical and horizontal, and to shift the values independently per eye to correct the issue.  Eventually the app was opened for everyone's use, the problem was just much more noticeable in the Odyssey's even though at the time they were the highest res available.     

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On 5/29/2020 at 10:45 PM, JG51_jokkr said:

VR makes you feel like your flying, not playing a game

Very true, this is the essence of vr.

Why should I "play a game" by using a monitor+trackir,  instead or fly a plane as real as it can be in a pc....so I say realism first.

I am not a very competitive online player but I don't care. I'm not going to take a step backward and play a flight sim on monitor just to take a step forward on the online ranking list or create some fancy yt video about what a great pilot I am -no offense. Be honest, every time I defeat an opponent online I wonder I could make it. 

Anyway, I enjoy every moment of tis game in vr, even we have all disadvantages. I hope devs will fix them soon.

 

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3 minutes ago, airsheep_VR said:

Very true, this is the essence of vr.

Why should I "play a game" by using a monitor+trackir,  instead or fly a plane as real as it can be in a pc....so I say realism first.

I am not a very competitive online player but I don't care. I'm not going to take a step backward and play a flight sim on monitor just to take a step forward on the online ranking list or create some fancy yt video about what a great pilot I am -no offense. Be honest, every time I defeat an opponent online I wonder I could make it. 

Anyway, I enjoy every moment of tis game in vr, even we have all disadvantages. I hope devs will fix them soon.

 

 

The main disadvantage of VR is still what it originally was, the resolution. Devs can't do much about that, but  as technology moves along albeit at a slow pace it is getting better.

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Posted (edited)

Have you noticed times when the."seeing"  Is great and other times its just awful.

 

 And while more resolution would be great it's not likely in our future. The reverb I have in unlikely to be beaten any time soon. 
 

But when the sun is just right, the seeing is dramatically better. Tells me the potential is already here.
 

Developers we need help. Would you buy your coder a reverb and let him optimize game settings to improve our baked in settings. If we could tweak like a monitir, we could do it ourself. But we can't so could you help. The aggressive and over the top contrast killing glare would be my first choice. Screen glare is impossible, and far worse that what occurs with a monitor. A monitor can be adjusted to minimize. A VR headset can not.
 

Maybe a separate graphics logic tree would make sense for 2d and VR.

 

I love this game and you have potentially the very best flight Sim on the market, period. The  fact that it is historical combat is just the frosting.

 

Honestly, this thread and a few others have pointed the way to a great experience for VR users. Who ever figures this out will suck in all the new VR Sim types coming up. VR is going from early adopter to mainstream status as we speak. And a must have for driving and flying sim players.
 

Jokkr

 

Add on

 

There are major developments coming that will reduce the load on the gpu and will dramatically broaden  the marketplace. Eye  tracking and foviated rendering are just around the corners. This will help resolution (yea) but not impact color, saturation, and contrast. Why I emplore you to get a leg up on the technology.

Edited by JG51_jokkr
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"Eye  tracking and foviated rendering are just around the corners".

 

I just wish they would hurry up and decide which corner it is.  I've been waiting four years for "it's just around the corner", I'm starting to sound like my children, on a long car journey "Are we nearly there yet ?"

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2 hours ago, HagarTheHorrible said:

"Eye  tracking and foviated rendering are just around the corners".

 

I just wish they would hurry up and decide which corner it is.  I've been waiting four years for "it's just around the corner", I'm starting to sound like my children, on a long car journey "Are we nearly there yet ?"

 

I think at one time it was "nearly there" on Oculus end. Sadly Oculus seems to have taken a different path now.

Hopefully others will pick up that ball and run with it. Or else the tech is just not there yet, at least at a cost to be feasible.

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Its available on latest gen pimax. It's been in development for years but the industry knows to broaden marketplace, it's a must do. It's to a degree a convergence of faster cheaper cpus and better technology.

 

 

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On 5/28/2020 at 9:52 PM, SharpeXB said:

That remains to be seen. Currently VR adoption in flight sims has held at about 11-12% for the last two years and isn’t growing (according to the Navigraph survey)
If VR proves to be a handicap then that’s going to doom it in gaming. 
In the meantime...
Giving VR players more ability = OK

Taking away abilities from other players (the majority) to “level the field” = Not OK

 

 

 

LOL

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15 hours ago, JG51_jokkr said:

Its available on latest gen pimax. It's been in development for years but the industry knows to broaden marketplace, it's a must do. It's to a degree a convergence of faster cheaper cpus and better technology.

 

 

 

It is? Folks are using that now? How is it working?

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It’s just now being introduced with new gen. But note it’s an option not standard.

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Meh, eyetracking and foviated rendering will only matter while we're hardware limited. 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, VR-DriftaholiC said:

Meh, eyetracking and foviated rendering will only matter while we're hardware limited. 

You may be right. By the time foveated rendering tech is developed, graphics cards will be able to crank out such high resolutions that it won’t be necessary. I think the challenge with FR isn’t the eye tracking itself, that exists in some HMDs already, it’s used to track customer behavior. But you’d need such a fast refresh rate in the displays to avoid seeing blur or ghosting as you twitch your eyes around. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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On 6/9/2020 at 11:15 AM, JG51_jokkr said:

It’s just now being introduced with new gen. But note it’s an option not standard.

 

On 6/9/2020 at 10:54 AM, dburne said:

It is? Folks are using that now? How is it working?

 

Pimax' eye tracking module is still at the design phase. I'd guess 6-9 months at an absolute minimum for them to ship any. The fixed foveated rendering (FFR) on Pimax is currently buggy and crashes after 20 minutes of use, from the last report I'd read, and you need FFR to work if you want to do DFR. So no, I would not say dynamic foveated rendering is here and working, at least not in a mainstream headset. StarVR ($3200 and up, fitted and tuned to each user individually) has dynamic foveated rendering, but only in specific software titles.

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Posted (edited)

Its coming. Pico announced too. But it's not ready for prime time, that I get. My point is, its being developed and perfected.

 

We are hardware limited. We all desire a Pimax 8k for $300. We need a computer that will drive it at 90 gps for that liquid experience.

 

That VR headset would be near universal for flight Sims and driving Sims.

 

Maybe the next gen CPU/GPU will get close on pure power. I kinda doubt it. But my point is at the end of the year there will be very few PCs on the planet capable of running this hypothetical headset. Maybe 0.1% if sales are great. That's a fair number of people but what % are gamers, what % like Sims, and what % play IL2.

 

To make the VR headset a viable product it needs the broad installed base of PCs sold in the past few years. Oh, and only the highest end PCs can play.

 

So unit cost is too high because unit volume is too low 

 

The product development designs are still in transition so nothing is near standardized. Again raises unit cost...

 

As this all coalesces, an acceptable solution will be had. It will not be hardware based. The solution to moving this quickly is a broad base of playable PCS and many if them are already out there  playing games. The only path is making these PCS more capable. That is likely foviated rendering. Or a new compression scheme with hardware in headset. Not out there 

 

Anyway, we chip at the problem. But when a solution is broadly distributed, bang, almost overnight it all changes.

 

I do think we're close. 

 

Jokkr

 

 

 

Edited by JG51_jokkr

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