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4.006 Is MSAA anti aliasing broken ?


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Hi folks,

 

I'm having a lot of issues with shimmering and stair step jaggies since the new update. I tried the new FXAA too and it's the same. Is it my system, is it my settings or is it the game ?

 

Samsung 40' Full HD 1080p

MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4gb

Ryzen 2600

16gb Ram

Nvidia settings set to APPLICATION CONTROLLED for AA

 

I had a perfect set up before 4.006: No need for Reshade or anything. Just 4xAA and gamma 0.9. Anisotropic Filtering OFF helped a bit too in NCP. I was able to spot at a good distance and the image quality was good.

 

Now I have the following issues:

1. Anti Aliasing only works on certain parts of the image. Some items look really bad with jaggies. (109 artificial horizon is awful)

2. Looking around the airfield on the ground there is constant shimmering and aliasing (especially runway edges and airfield perimeters)

3. Spotting has got worse at a distance but close contacts are easier to spot and ID

4. Contacts flying close to clouds are way too easy to spot from above due to flickering.

5. At altitude, the ground textures are too blurry and the definition keeps changing. Turning NCP Anisotropic Filtering back on helped a bit with this.

6. FXAA is too flickery. MSAA is a cleaner image where it works but it misses many areas.

7. Sharpen helps a bit but makes my game look pig ugly so it stays off.

 

I have in game screen shots but the images look better here than in real life. If you click on them you get a better idea, but it's still not as bad as what I see.

 

It's great that the Devs keep striving for improvements, but in my case, 4.006 is a step backwards.

 

Any help or ideas are appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Prey

 

PLEASE VIEW SCREENSHOTS IN FULL SIZE TO SEE THE JAGGIES ON THE DIAGONAL LINES.

 

airfield.jpg

artificial horizon.jpg

cloud spotting.jpg

settings.jpg

Edited by PreyStalker
Added screenshots
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The deferd engine introduced again shimmering which was fixed some years ago. This is new engine so I would wait  for new filter versions like blurred option for  horizon. Same with strange visual outline of planes against clouds and road shimmer in tank map to enumerate some. With new engine those issues should be able to fix now, that how I understand the change because what other purposes this big change would have - new canopy reflection only  ? Be patient ;)

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I had a lot of shimmering until I turned the landscape filter to blurry. I now run all settings maxed, no supersampling on the Rift S, 4xMXAA, blurry landscape filter, and sharpen on, and it looks great. Still some shimmer, but that combo seems to be the best, until if and when the shimmering is addressed more directly. 

Edited by Eclipse4349
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I get a bit of shimmer with FXAA on the Stalingrad map. On the Bodenplatte map, playing on the same settings, I didn't seem to get any.

I always run with the blurry landscape filter though. Even before the patch, without a filter I would get a bit of shimmer.

 

Distant Landscape Detail may change things too.

With FXAA I find the spotting is much better though there is a bit of flicker with distant contacts that doesn't look as good. However it's worth it to be able to see better.

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5 hours ago, 1PL-Husar-1Esk said:

The deferd engine introduced again shimmering which was fixed some years ago. This is new engine so I would wait  for new filter versions like blurred option for  horizon. Same with strange visual outline of planes against clouds and road shimmer in tank map to enumerate some. With new engine those issues should be able to fix now, that how I understand the change because what other purposes this big change would have - new canopy reflection only  ? Be patient ;)

 

I really hope there are further tweaks and improvements in the pipeline because right now, I wish I could have 4.005 graphics back.

 

It seems like some people are really happy with the changes and others, like myself, feel visibility and image quality has reduced. I guess it depends if you use TV/monitor, 1080p, 1440p, 4k, VR. So many people to please !

 

If a One Size Fits All approach is difficult, would it be possible, I wonder, to choose  between deferred shading or the previous graphics version in a launcher menu prior to game load ? 

 

Just thinking out loud

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After trying different combinations of AA settings, I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can have the same spotting and visibility as before is to completely turn off AA in game. The difference is night and day for spotting distant contacts.

 

It's a pitty because before 4.006 + 4.007 I could see distant contacts well and the sim looked good in general. Now it's a case of one being sacrificed for the other. 

 

The issues in the OP started with 4.006 and still continue now in 4.007.

 

Is it the deferred shading that causes this or has there been another change to the AA in game ?

 

(GTX 970 1080p 40'TV)

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4 hours ago, PreyStalker said:

After trying different combinations of AA settings, I've come to the conclusion that the only way I can have the same spotting and visibility as before is to completely turn off AA in game. The difference is night and day for spotting distant contacts.

 

It's a pitty because before 4.006 + 4.007 I could see distant contacts well and the sim looked good in general. Now it's a case of one being sacrificed for the other. 

 

The issues in the OP started with 4.006 and still continue now in 4.007.

 

Is it the deferred shading that causes this or has there been another change to the AA in game ?

 

(GTX 970 1080p 40'TV)

 

This is the same conclusion I have - I turned off AA in the game, but selected FXAA in NVCP plus enhanced the antialiasing mode.  Spotting is much, much better

and yes, the game looks still very good - no jaggies or whatever you might think. Resolution is 1920 x 1080 and capped to 60 FPS, as my monitor runs on 60 Hz.

 

And I've got the same lame GTX 970.

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18 hours ago, -=-THERION said:

 

This is the same conclusion I have - I turned off AA in the game, but selected FXAA in NVCP plus enhanced the antialiasing mode.  Spotting is much, much better

and yes, the game looks still very good - no jaggies or whatever you might think. Resolution is 1920 x 1080 and capped to 60 FPS, as my monitor runs on 60 Hz.

 

And I've got the same lame GTX 970.

 

Thank you Therion,

 

I tried this last night and it seems to be a good compromise between spotting and visual quality. 

 

Turning off all AA is still best for spotting at the moment, but your suggestion works quite well too and better than the in game options.

 

 

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/25/2020 at 6:39 AM, PreyStalker said:

Hi folks,

 

I'm having a lot of issues with shimmering and stair step jaggies since the new update. I tried the new FXAA too and it's the same. Is it my system, is it my settings or is it the game ?

 

Samsung 40' Full HD 1080p

MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4gb

Ryzen 2600

16gb Ram

Nvidia settings set to APPLICATION CONTROLLED for AA

 

I had a perfect set up before 4.006: No need for Reshade or anything. Just 4xAA and gamma 0.9. Anisotropic Filtering OFF helped a bit too in NCP. I was able to spot at a good distance and the image quality was good.

 

Now I have the following issues:

1. Anti Aliasing only works on certain parts of the image. Some items look really bad with jaggies. (109 artificial horizon is awful)

2. Looking around the airfield on the ground there is constant shimmering and aliasing (especially runway edges and airfield perimeters)

3. Spotting has got worse at a distance but close contacts are easier to spot and ID

4. Contacts flying close to clouds are way too easy to spot from above due to flickering.

5. At altitude, the ground textures are too blurry and the definition keeps changing. Turning NCP Anisotropic Filtering back on helped a bit with this.

6. FXAA is too flickery. MSAA is a cleaner image where it works but it misses many areas.

7. Sharpen helps a bit but makes my game look pig ugly so it stays off.

 

I have in game screen shots but the images look better here than in real life. If you click on them you get a better idea, but it's still not as bad as what I see.

 

It's great that the Devs keep striving for improvements, but in my case, 4.006 is a step backwards.

 

Any help or ideas are appreciated

 

Thanks

 

Prey

 

PLEASE VIEW SCREENSHOTS IN FULL SIZE TO SEE THE JAGGIES ON THE DIAGONAL LINES.

 

airfield.jpg

artificial horizon.jpg

cloud spotting.jpg

settings.jpg

I’m having the same problem with MSAA in 4.008b. Some objects are anti-aliased well; however, diagonal lines and some parts of the aircraft still have significant jaggies. I noticed that sometimes the jaggies kind of disappear when the scene is slightly in motion but then come back when the image is still. Motion also causes a bit of shimmering. I’ve tried every combination of nVidia control panel setting and in-game anti-alias setting with MSAA to no avail. 

 

[Edit: I tried setting defaults in the nVidia control panel, and this seems to help the shimmering a bit. However, the anti-aliasing issue on some textures remains a problem.]

Edited by =SqSq=SignorMagnifico
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The 4.008 update has improved the MSAA a little, I think. I noticed that runway edges and the terrain around you at the airfield have less jaggies and less shimmering. Some edges still get missed here and there, but it is an improvement over 4.006 and 4.007.

 

Contacts in clouds are so much better now too. That's a major step forward for the BOX series and the first time ever we've had decent looking planes in clouds.

 

From the few sorties I've flown so far, even spotting has been improved slightly too. It's still insanely difficult to spot low distant planes, but spotting contacts in the sky seems a bit easier since 4.008. 

 

I must admit, my initial reaction to 4.006 was "WTF have they done ?" 4.007 didn't change that opinion, but I'm relieved that 4.008 is moving in the right direction again as far as the visuals go. 

 

Well done Devs !

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I made some comparison images of anti-aliasing settings in-game to see what works the best. From what I can tell, enhancing or overriding AA via the NVidia Control Panel doesn't change the anti-aliasing generated by the game. NVidia FXAA does work, but it looks like there is more of a blur filter applied than what we have with in-game FXAA. MFAA might be doing something, but it's hard to see. Anyone have other observations? Taken on 4.008b today with in-game resolution of 2560x1440.

 

 

AAComparison.jpg

AAComparison2.jpg

Edited by =SqSq=SignorMagnifico
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@=SqSq=SignorMagnifico Nice work with the image comparison !

 

Are you able to do the same with an image of distant contacts ?

 

For me, getting AA right means the sim looks good without making contacts hard to spot. Usually, the more AA you apply, the fainter the distant contacts become, especially when they are just a distant dot.

 

It would be interesting to have a side by side comparison of distant contacts like you have done with the plane.

 

Thanks.

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23 hours ago, PreyStalker said:

@=SqSq=SignorMagnifico Nice work with the image comparison !

 

Are you able to do the same with an image of distant contacts ?

 

For me, getting AA right means the sim looks good without making contacts hard to spot. Usually, the more AA you apply, the fainter the distant contacts become, especially when they are just a distant dot.

 

It would be interesting to have a side by side comparison of distant contacts like you have done with the plane.

 

Thanks.

I’ll see what I can do this weekend. Seems like a good idea.

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Go and look at youtube videos of il-2 Box two years ago and your see good clear graphics good id of contacts up close 10km , this new installment is a step backwards . 

I am completely struggling with these new graphic updates . 

Dog Fighting has turned in to a click bait affair .

No one can see anything happening until someone pulls the trigger ``then a swarm of flys dive down from nowhere to attack . 

Its a beacon to everyone once that trigger is pulled . !!!

Graphics look nice sat in the cockpit but then look out side and its a blurry landscape hard to spot any moving targets . 

Whats happened to the nice graphics we had with Good id of targets and semi decent visibility up to 10km . 

Its looks like AA isn't working or its broken now since 4.6  . 

I was flying nealy in 4k and still have jaggs and shimmering landscape on horizons with lots of jaggs . 

Will this get fixed because a new map is coming and im on the fence now . 

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8 minutes ago, KoN_ said:

I was flying nealy in 4k and still have jaggs and shimmering landscape on horizons with lots of jaggs . 

Will this get fixed because a new map is coming and im on the fence now . 

 

I agree: there is more jaggies now on the horizon than before.

Also, according to a recent patch they "improved ground quality" on some maps. However, I also noticed that my framerate now takes a nosedive whenever I fly near the ground, even on "low density" maps like Stalingrad.

I hope they will be able to fix those 2 major graphical problems, with limited resources they have.

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Okay, so due to popular demand, I made an image comparison of different anti-aliasing effects on aircraft spotting. All images were taken in-game with 2560x1440 resolution on game version 4.008c. I don't use any reshade settings since those were banned from a few multiplayer servers. Gamma is .8. No, I don't typically fly with labels on. The labels are on for testing and consistency purposes. 

 

First set with no wing visible is fully zoomed in. The second set is fully zoomed out.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/umd9n1la877fao8/SpottingComparison.jpg?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kuiprdt5wbhnzgn/SpottingComparison2.jpg?dl=0

 

 

 

SpottingComparison2.jpg

Edited by =SqSq=SignorMagnifico
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11 hours ago, =SqSq=SignorMagnifico said:

Okay, so due to popular demand, I made an image comparison of different anti-aliasing effects on aircraft spotting. All images were taken in-game with 2560x1440 resolution on game version 4.008c. I don't use any reshade settings since those were banned from a few multiplayer servers. Gamma is .8. No, I don't typically fly with labels on. The labels are on for testing and consistency purposes. 

 

First set with no wing visible is fully zoomed in. The second set is fully zoomed out.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/umd9n1la877fao8/SpottingComparison.jpg?dl=0

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kuiprdt5wbhnzgn/SpottingComparison2.jpg?dl=0

 

 

 

SpottingComparison2.jpg

What do you think ? 

i find in game FXAA better . the shimmer has been cleaned up on the horizon and ground . 

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Nice work again !

 

The top left contact at 8.25 km is a good example of how AA can impact a distant contact. With MSAA it's visible whereas FXAA makes it practically invisible. That ties in with my own testing.

 

More alarming are the 3 contacts on the right that are against the ground. Can anyone see one ?

 

That's still the hardest thing about spotting in BOX

 

Thanks for the images.

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Going to take some photos later . 

I fly in FXAA @ x 2  as i find this stops the jaggy edges . 

Will test in MSAA

Them contacts on the right are only at 6km and its nearly impossible to spot . 😢

Edited by KoN_
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Many friends of mine and squadron mates, including myself own the Nvidia 1060 and we all have problems.

 

I can confirm what the threadopener says: the shared pictures here look better than the ingame graphic (probably cause of the 0 movement in pictures of course).

If you start on an AF and you look to the horizon, you will see a lot of little zick-zack lines in the medium to far distance. Up in the air the far distance looks like a mud fest somehow.

 

We tried a lot of different settings but with no satisfactoring result so far.

We hope that some fixes will come soon, because right now its not only ugly - but also difficult to spot. 4.005 was maybe not perfect but in my honest opinion the best deal graphics wise.

 

Any shared ideas here are more than welcome

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In  the early days we used superspares sampling x 2 or x 4 but that was years ago to get nice crips graphics , you need nvidia profiler to do that ,  google it . this did clear up the jaggs on the horizon and make things look nice , im with AMD now i might try super sample .  

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1 hour ago, KoN_ said:

In  the early days we used superspares sampling x 2 or x 4 but that was years ago to get nice crips graphics , you need nvidia profiler to do that ,  google it . this did clear up the jaggs on the horizon and make things look nice , im with AMD now i might try super sample .  

As my testing results show, due to deferred shading and DX11, driver level anti-aliasing does not work. The only anti-aliasing methods that work are the in-game ones or post-processing like Reshade or NVidia FXAA.

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The extern Reshade program is a third party programm, so it will not work anymore?

I used it too until 4.005, but after 4.006 the game did not started anymore, so I kicked it out and have the here told problems.

 

So, what to do?

Waiting ages til the developers will fix that thing?

 

I am not a graphic whore, but in this our game - its killing me...and not only me

Edited by KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82
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11 minutes ago, KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82 said:

The extern Reshade program is a third party programm, so it will not work anymore?

I used it too until 4.005, but after 4.006 the game did not started anymore, so I kicked it out and have the here told problems.

 

So, what to do?

Waiting ages til the developers will fix that thing?

 

I am not a graphic whore, but in this our game - its killing me...and not only me

Reshade still works, but only on multiplayer servers where it is allowed and in single player. For now, the best anti-aliasing combination appears to be MSAA. You could also try rendering the game at higher resolutions, which should look better than using anti-aliasing. I'm planning to do this when the NVidia Ampere card comes out and use DSR to render at a higher resolution. For now, the developers are responsible for the anti-aliasing implementation.

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55 minutes ago, =SqSq=SignorMagnifico said:

Reshade still works, but only on multiplayer servers where it is allowed and in single player. For now, the best anti-aliasing combination appears to be MSAA. You could also try rendering the game at higher resolutions, which should look better than using anti-aliasing. I'm planning to do this when the NVidia Ampere card comes out and use DSR to render at a higher resolution. For now, the developers are responsible for the anti-aliasing implementation.

I used DSR to put a 1080p display to a 1440p resolution to stress test my GPU on the higher resolution... the downsampling definitely impacted spotting negatively. Even large contacts like bombers disappeared or were rendered a lot smaller. 

On a native 1440p display now I don't notice the jagginess nearly as much as I did at 1080p, so resolution helps. And on a large screen spotting at the higher resolution is as good or better in some situation. But the horizon jaggies are still there a little.

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Im turning it all off and going for the in game approach .

Reshade color only .

high settings and MSAA x 4 . 

See how we do in multiplayer . Figured out if you fire your guns for more than three seconds your have someone on your six maybe even two in a few seconds . Friend or foe . 

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Intersting thread. I have the same problems as Kalle and the others here. I first thought it was another AMD issue but obviously all cards types are affected by it to some degree.  Fingers crossed that they fix it. Since the switch to deffered shading there are some ongoing graphic issues that they need to take care off.

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On 7/23/2020 at 3:59 PM, KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82 said:

I tried so many different options:

MSAA with high res, without, with high AA, without high AA, with sharpen landscapes, without...

...also FXAA - I tried a lot of options.

 

I have found the "best"...or lets say the at least worst solution...and it is still ugly and unacceptable

 

 

I have the same problems since 4.006 or so. At first I only noticed the AA not woring properly on medium to long distance on contacts, but shortly after I was getting all the rough edges and bad AA on the terrain as well. Especially noticeable on rivers and roads.

As you said, I've been trying changing everything from in-game AA to nvidia inspector to adjusting DSR and force a higher definition. Changes are barely noticeable for me.
I am hoping it will be addressed in the near future. It's a bit annoying to look at a shimmering horizon when we've been used to a good clean image.

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This was my biggest fear when I heard deferred shading was being introduced having gone through the pain in DCS.

I have spent many hours tinkering with AA settings, which is not helped by most, if not all in NVCP having no effect at all.

 

The thing is though, despite the post change negative impact on performance and aliasing, the new image in DCS looked absolutely stunning, and even more so if you could afford shadows on, but with IL-2 I honestly cannot see a single positive benefit for the change. This used to be a beautiful looking game/ sim to fly in, but not any more.

 

I'm currently spending more time in XP11 post Vulkan introduction and the graphics are crystal clear and atmospherics are just stunning.  

If anyone can enlighten me for the reason for the change it would be interesting to know, but either way I hope they get it back to at least what it was before.

Edited by Nake350
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Me with the same "problem".
2 friends recommended that I disable the "sharpness" option in the game.
  It somewhat improves the "vibrations" of rivers, roads and horizon, but it is not perfect, since it only "hides", apart from the fact that the cabins and the environment without the "sharpness" filter look very ugly, without definition and somewhat blurred (There is a Mod where booth sharpness is improved apart from readings on clocks and dials, but most servers do not accept Mods.)

I hope they correct it and leave it as it was before the introduction of deferred shading.
greetings to all

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From this comment it looks like it is still being worked on and devs are actively following feedback:

As far as deferred rendering goes, at least one of the objectives was to offload significant amounts of processing from the CPU to the GPU, which for most people increases performance because most rigs have more headroom in the GPU than the CPU, especially on the VR side of things. The other was to help with visibility issues, and I do feel it has helped there.

A lot of people found 4.005 improved visibility and then post patches reduced it again. I'm not sure I've found this to be the case, if I had to go with my gut I would say that 4.005 improved spotting quite a bit and subsequent patches are still better than prior to 4.005 but maybe not so good in certain situations. Others noted a more dramatic reduction. 

I think that the AMD issues forced some work-arounds for the deferred rendering to make it function properly on AMD hardware, and I think this has led to the issues with AA and reduced contact spotting after 4.005. IIRC According to the devs it's a confirmed driver issue with AMD cards as they originally implemented it as per the specs, but AMD didn't have a fix so they had to do it themselves in the engine.

At least we know that work is continuing. It might be one step forward two steps back every once in a while but they're not ignoring it, hopefully the new rendering will pay the dividends the devs originally wanted.

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4 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

The other was to help with visibility issues, and I do feel it has helped there.

Just wondering what is the reasoning/ science is behind this? My experience is deferred shading makes details, sharpness, aliasing and performance worse, which exactly the opposite needed for spotting distant aircraft. It's especially worse in VR.

 

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18 minutes ago, Nake350 said:

Just wondering what is the reasoning/ science is behind this? My experience is deferred shading makes details, sharpness, aliasing and performance worse, which exactly the opposite needed for spotting distant aircraft. It's especially worse in VR.

 

I'm just going off what the DD's said around the time, where Han mentioned that the deferred rendering should not only make the reflections and shading more realistic, but should help with the problem of planes blending against the ground...which I have found to be the case myself, though it is not perfect. I don't know enough about the rendering tech to speculate. I suspect that deferred shading lets you show more subtle effects of shading and lighting which should help differentiate objects moving against a background.

At co-alt spotting is pretty good I find, I can spot planes at my alt at a fair distance, planes render fairly clearly there. Against the ground I can spot them better than before, but its not an order of magnitude improvement. It's really, strangely, spotting contacts above me that is most frustrating, there is a tendency for the planes to blend in with the deeper blue sky, in a way that they don't with the 'whiter' background nearer the horizon.

This is one of those things that doesn't seem to be comparable from person to person - some VR guys say spotting got better, others it got worse. Some people on screens got better, others got worse. Some guys got worse VR performance, some guys got better VR performance. People say spotting got better/worse just between hotfixes that, at least according to patch notes, didn't tweak the rendering tech at all. So how much of this are we drawing on very short amounts of time in-game for conclusions is a question. My biggest problem is I often go for a week or two without playing, and then I wonder - did the patch improve things, or are my eyes just less tired? Did the patch make things worse, or am I just out of practice? 

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@developers

@-DED-Rapidus

The pilot "I Fly Central" made an awesome song about his favourite plane :)

Beside his creativity and this really nice idea, I think he has the same issues as we do.

Check out the complete video for the artistic aspect, and than because our issues on 01:50 and especially on 02:17 - check out the horizon, thats exactly how it looks for us

 

 

 

Edited by KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82
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