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Bf-109 x P-51 Limit

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109 starts the whole fight in a lower energy state.  At the last pass of the P-51, I can clearly see the 109 accelerating while climbing by simply pushing the throttle.  This is in spite of the 109 being obviously slower than the attacking P-51.   If the situation was reversed, the P-51 wouldn't be able to even complete that final loop - much less accelerate in a climb.   That's some good flight model there (sarc).

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Good video is interesting saw the acceleration and the power to climb of the 109, is out of all rules of engineering.

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1 minute ago, 666GIAP_Necathor said:

Good video is interesting saw the acceleration and the power to climb of the 109, is out of all rules of engineering.

 

I did think about it more.  I want to say that the very tiny micro-stutters we see at the start of the last climb before the 109 wins are because of server tick-rate catching up and not the model, but, I doubt it.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, 666GIAP_Necathor said:

Good video is interesting saw the acceleration and the power to climb of the 109, is out of all rules of engineering.

 

I think you're being deceived by perspective. The initial state of the 109 is unknown, he could just have come out of a 700km/h dive, and you couldn't tell. Furthermore, if you watch carefully at 1.29, the kinetic energy states of both planes are almost equal, they are both stalling, but the Mustang has potential energy on his side. When the kill takes place, the perceived altitude difference between the two is the same as before (when the kinetic energy was equal), it's just that the 109 got a valid solution this time.

 

It could also be that the 109 pilot is handling his bird with higher efficiency, meaning less slip, ball centered, less aileron roll, lower AoA in turns etc.

 

As Chuck Yeager put it, (most times) it's the man, not the machine.

Edited by Raven109
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1 hour ago, Raven109 said:

 

I think you're being deceived by perspective. The initial state of the 109 is unknown, he could just have come out of a 700km/h dive, and you couldn't tell. Furthermore, if you watch carefully at 1.29, the kinetic energy states of both planes are almost equal, they are both stalling, but the Mustang has potential energy on his side. When the kill takes place, the perceived altitude difference between the two is the same as before (when the kinetic energy was equal), it's just that the 109 got a valid solution this time.

 

It could also be that the 109 pilot is handling his bird with higher efficiency, meaning less slip, ball centered, less aileron roll, lower AoA in turns etc.

 

As Chuck Yeager put it, (most times) it's the man, not the machine.

 

Mmmm Hmmm.....  Do tell more.  :rolleyes:

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1 minute ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

Mmmm Hmmm.....  Do tell more.  :rolleyes:

 

Actually, why don't you tell more? I already said enough to explain the situation. Saying that the 109 is OP without providing any evidence is just like saying that the earth is flat because you looked out the window and it seems flat from your window.

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What kind of 109 was it?  I can have a closer look at the video, but it was fun to watch.  Thank you.

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9 minutes ago, Raven109 said:

 

Actually, why don't you tell more? I already said enough to explain the situation. Saying that the 109 is OP without providing any evidence is just like saying that the earth is flat because you looked out the window and it seems flat from your window.

 

Well, if the 109 was coming out of a 700kph dive like that - as you suggest - even if he had extra engine power to apply, he shouldn't be accelerating in the climb as obviously as he does.  Granted, he couldn't make the same altitude as the P-51, but he had all the stability he needed at the top to make his shot.  

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Posted (edited)

I only said 700km/h to suggest that the initial state of the defender is unknown, just to underline that an observer cannot tell which plane is better just by looking at this video, since it lacks context. I could've said 650km/h or 499.35km/h, and you cannot prove me wrong.

 

Anyway, let's just ignore the initial state. Let's consider the kinetic state at 1.29, where both planes <<seem>> to be close to a stalling speed, and thus seem to have an equal kinetic state. They both dive, the Mustang is accelerating faster in the dive, misses the shot and then starts climbing. A few seconds later, the Mustang seems to be in an accelerated stall at 1.49, an thus losing more speed (you can see a wing drop).

 

But let's just ignore that wing drop (which would be enough of a reason for the 109 to close the distance) and instead just watch the video and you'll see, that what seems to be a 109 catching up is actually just an illusion, they are just flying away from the camera at a different angles, which makes it look like it's catching up.

 

Bottom line, the video cannot be used to determine aircraft performance. All it can be used for is to say that an unknown 109 model shot down a Mustang after reversing the situation.

 

To simplify: the maneuvers are not performed in the plane of the camera, so accelerations, distances are not what they seem to be.

Edited by Raven109
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1:43 to 1:55  I can see the 109 clearly accelerating in a 45+ degree climb.  What the P-51 is doing is irrelevant.  

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I reallythought the P-51 was the winner as the rocket like behaviour of the 109 having slats that gives more critical AoA control, making her difficult to stall. Teoman, I agree great angles although labels could be turned quickly on and off at the start to know who is who at the start and to practice long range VID.

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I'm with Raven on this one. There is not enough information to really make any type of determination about energy states. The camera angle on the 109's final climb could easily make it appear to to accelerate in a way it actually isn't. Lastly, the Mustang driver appears to be pulling really hard at the top of the loops and is off screen for some other maneuvers. If the 109 driver is being really efficient he may have rope-a-doped the other pilot and leveled or reversed the overall E states. There just isn't any data to make an trully informed opinion without TacView or at least camera angle closer to the fight.

 

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10 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

1:43 to 1:55  I can see the 109 clearly accelerating in a 45+ degree climb.  What the P-51 is doing is irrelevant.  

 

So what is the conclusion? That the 109 driver is a cheater or that the 109 is unrealistically overpowered or that the Mustang is underpowered? I cant accelerate in any 109 when going vertical and i cant see such thing happend here? To me it seems like the 109 driver did a good job surviving the first two passes and managing his energy better and then climb a bit faster then his opponent in the vertical. The Mustang was slower in the vertical or lost his speed faster so the 109 had more speed but surely didnt accelerate at this stage. 

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6 hours ago, Blutaar said:

 

So what is the conclusion? That the 109 driver is a cheater or that the 109 is unrealistically overpowered or that the Mustang is underpowered? I cant accelerate in any 109 when going vertical and i cant see such thing happend here? To me it seems like the 109 driver did a good job surviving the first two passes and managing his energy better and then climb a bit faster then his opponent in the vertical. The Mustang was slower in the vertical or lost his speed faster so the 109 had more speed but surely didnt accelerate at this stage. 

 

Well, I'm pretty sure that propeller-driven airplanes that can even temporarily accelerate in the vertical are called "helicopters".  (Loose exception given for those experimental VTOL "tiny wing, huge prop" designs both sides worked on.)

 

Whether the P-51 is underpowered (BTW, it is) is irrelevant for the purposes of this argument. 

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What you saw was a better tactic defeating an inferior tactic.

 

The Mustang made a decision to vertical prop hang within gun range of a 109. Gets away with it once, does not get away with it twice.

 

 

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Once again, what the P-51 is doing, or even the combat, is irrelevant. 

What I see is a 109 that can still pull off a burst of acceleration just before and still, during 45+ degree climb.  

 

Now, what I'm seeing is lufties trying to divert the point in order to defend their helicopter.  

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Helicoptering in video games is a pretty silly thing, but even IRL the BF109 was basically a roller skate strapped to an engine. Pulling up in front of one in a larger and heavier multirole fighter like the Mustang was just a bad idea...instead of putting the hammer down and disappearing after taking his two bites at the apple the Mustang pilot stayed close, got slow and paid for it. This video could just as easily have been a FW190 vs. a Yak.

 

What I'd like to know is what was the Mustang's plan had he not gotten shot down? Diving on the 109 from there would have effectively been committing to a knife fight on the deck.

 

 

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On 5/24/2020 at 10:50 PM, CUJO_1970 said:

 

The Mustang made a decision to vertical prop hang within gun range of a 109. Gets away with it once, does not get away with it twice.

 

Plus he spent all his energy-advantage, trying to square the corners and pulling lead on the 109, when he should have gone lag and take the E-advantage with him.

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Posted (edited)

Me:  The 109 can be seen accelerating at a climb angle that it shouldn't be able to accelerate at.

 

Everybody else:  But, what about the P-51 pilot's bad tactics?   

 

Classic whataboutism at its best.  

Edited by 69th_Mobile_BBQ

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At your given time stamp the P-51 is pulling a much tighter turn opposite to the 109 and therefore probably losing more energy - no wonder the 109 catches up with the 51.

 

Not sure if you mean "109 accelerating in a climb" by that.

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1 hour ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Me:  The 109 can be seen accelerating at a climb angle that it shouldn't be able to accelerate at.

 

Everybody else:  But, what about the P-51 pilot's bad tactics?   

 

Classic whataboutism at its best.  

 

The choice that the P-51 made to yank the stick to his dick bled off his airspeed. He decelerated faster than the 109 did, which is why the 109 accelerated in a relative sense and the P-51 got rekt. (I'm an all-nations guy who is partial to the US, if that matters).

 

Take any 109 you like in QMB and see for yourself if it will increase airspeed in a vertical climb.

 

Spoiler

It won't.

 

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1 hour ago, MattS said:

 

The choice that the P-51 made to yank the stick to his dick bled off his airspeed. He decelerated faster than the 109 did, which is why the 109 accelerated in a relative sense and the P-51 got rekt. (I'm an all-nations guy who is partial to the US, if that matters).

 

Take any 109 you like in QMB and see for yourself if it will increase airspeed in a vertical climb.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

It won't.

 

 

I was using the ground and the clouds as reference not the P-51.  

I'm not disputing the P-51 pilot's tactics.  

If you remove the P-51 and the combat, which BTW are both irrelevant to the 109 accelerating in the climb, the fact remains the 109 accelerated in the climb.  

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Someone should do a coffin dance version of this video. Or of Mobile BBQ powers of observation.

 

514736399_coffindance.thumb.jpg.8db63f4b68a63efa0ccbd660f28666aa.jpg

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Posted (edited)

For me the initial state of the analysis is the situation when the 109 stalls for the first time 0:40. For me it is obvious that the p51 failed to take advantage. Poor timing and average reversal techniques of the p51. He has to train more that. Not only he did not anticipate but he was 8 seconds late on the reversal, and during that time the 109 was accelerating and building energy. The second time he was late too, and at the third time the energy differential was not just enough to escape in the vertical. Some do not understand that planes build energy not by only climbing but by accelerating too. WW2 planes do not have  t/w ratio above 1 to build mechanical energy (total energy) just by keeping the nose up. If you are close to stall speed climbing does not add total energy by much it just transforms kinetic to potential. If the other plane accelerates it is more efficient that hanging in the air. If you are at the top you can stay there to gain positional advantage at no energy cost, or you need the reversal as fast as possible. Hanging in the air does just that you hang and do not build energy. So the best technique is to anticipate the nose drop of the plane below and reverse faster and before him. In that way not only you have a shot at a hanging plane below but you build energy advantage.

He had the 109 on the plate, instead he had not only to overshoot but turning right into the 109 guns.
The thing the p51 did right was to jink in the vertical.
The better pilot gains advantage not by turning harder or tighter but by having a better timing. All he needs is just several seconds of hesitation.

Edited by JG27_Kornezov
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That's all well and good, but WHAT ABOUT that P-51? 

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On 5/25/2020 at 8:36 AM, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

Once again, what the P-51 is doing, or even the combat, is irrelevant. 

What I see is a 109 that can still pull off a burst of acceleration just before and still, during 45+ degree climb.  

 

Now, what I'm seeing is lufties trying to divert the point in order to defend their helicopter.  

 

The sudden acceleration is not due to the  physics of acceleration of the 109 in the game but it is due to the network and internet and ping situation update.

When there are players in different continents this is what happens.

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17 hours ago, JG27_Kornezov said:

 

The sudden acceleration is not due to the  physics of acceleration of the 109 in the game but it is due to the network and internet and ping situation update.

When there are players in different continents this is what happens.

 

I never meant to detract the piloting skills shown.  I also do agree that the P-51 did push too far and lost his advantage.  The 109 did appear to accelerate when it shouldn't have been able to.  If it really is a ping thing, then I'll let it go.  

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Only thing that happened in this video is a P-51 got spanked because he overshot his bandit and flew in front of his guns, repeatedly.  The 109, regardless of version, cannot accelerate in a 45 degree climb.  Any appearance of this is either due to camera angle (as the 109 is flying towards the camera at the start of the climb) or errors in perception.
 

P-51 pilot needs to use their energy better and not overcommit to a ruined shot.  I knew on the second dive starting the 3rd pass the p-51 did not have the separation or energy advantage to do anything but commit to a turn fight.  Either way, pressing the fight after that was practically suicide.  

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