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How on earth do you fly these things?

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Tried one of the new campaigns in a DR I.  With throttle at about 60% was having to pitch the stick far forward to maintain level flight.  Copped then that reducing throttle would bring the nose down which it did.  Then got into fight with Camels.  Turning is like riding a drunken monkey.  It swings up and down, much worse to the left.  I find it so hard to keep control.  Rudder seems more important than in WWII AC.  Those in the know please enlighten me.

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Dr1 and camel both clime and need stick holding about half way forward to maintain level flight, both are like dancing with a lady, a very unforgiving one, but you got to lead with your foot  start applying rudder before turn.

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The rotary world.... :)   How much stick forwards you need for level flight depends on your altitude. It gets a lot easier above about 3,000m  Go high enough and you will not need any.

Unfortunately if you play MP most fights take place very low down.

 

These things have strong rudders and rather weak ailerons, so to turn, start by banking the machine with the rudder, as GFC says.  Use the ailerons to get the precise bank you want, and the rudder to control where the nose is pointing.  Turning left the nose tends to rise so you use left rudder to stop that or you will stall out of the turn. Turning right, be careful not to let the nose drop or you risk being sucked into a spiral dive. So again left rudder to keep the nose up.  It becomes quite natural after a while, if you have rudder pedals.  If you do not... much harder.

 

Do not believe most of the crap you read on the internet about these planes. They were hard to learn to fly for a variety of reasons, but average pilots would handle them just fine after some practice. Assuming they lived that long....  

 

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It is not hard. But the controls you own certainly make a difference. Do you have pedals?

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Posted (edited)

How you handle the rudder is more important in the WW1 planes generally, and especially those with only the "flying" rudder (that is, planes without a stationary, vertical stabilizer). When you're learning to fly the plane, carefully mind that you are flying straight and not sliding diagonally along - the plane will try to do that if you don't counter with the rudder. You'll learn to basically be "on the controls" all the time and proactively managing the plane's attitude and directional control. Remember that Jacobs described the Dr.1 as being "unstable" and Mikael Carlson, who flies a rotary-powered replica Dr.1 concurred that the Dr.1 is a very unstable aircraft. Carlson has noted that you need to fly a Dr.1 "proactively" - that you cannot simply react to what the plane is doing. You actively need to be on the rudder as well as the stick to manage your pitch and direction. The instability of an airplane like Dr.1 eventually can be made an advantage as the plane can perform "snap" moves and slides that other aircraft cannot match. One man's liability, another's weapon.

 

The even earlier stuff might feature both all-flying rudder and the "balanced"/"Morane" elevator - where you have neither a fixed vertical nor a fixed horizontal stabilizer. Cecil Lewis noted the difficulties with the "balanced" Morane elevator system.

 

The stuff from the WW1 era came out of a time when modern control systems and balancing of aircraft was just beginning. The aircraft of 1917-18 were way ahead of those that were present in August 1914, but they were also still quite primitive and eccentric compared to aircraft of the 1940s.

Edited by Krispy_Duck
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I agree the DR1 is a nightmare to fly, the gyro effect is well over the top, and if you use a warthog stick it becomes a arm wrestling match trying to keep it level, with 50-60% forward stick pressure.

 

If you came from ROF it's a slap in the face compared to that DR1 FM, while the Camel has no such vices despite it being rotary as well.

 

I flew the DR1 in ROF for many years and had great success in it, but I wont fly the FC version it just at the moment takes up space in the game.

 

The devs really need to look at the DR1 FM, it is I would imagine the least used plane in the whole of FC and you very rarely come across a human player using it, yes I know some use it but as I said very few are willing to put up with it's vices, after all it's supposed to be fun after work, not an extra workload resulting in loads of frustrating stick wrestling. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, ST_Nooney said:

I agree the DR1 is a nightmare to fly, the gyro effect is well over the top, and if you use a warthog stick it becomes a arm wrestling match trying to keep it level, with 50-60% forward stick pressure.

 

If you came from ROF it's a slap in the face compared to that DR1 FM, while the Camel has no such vices despite it being rotary as well.

 

I flew the DR1 in ROF for many years and had great success in it, but I wont fly the FC version it just at the moment takes up space in the game.

 

The devs really need to look at the DR1 FM, it is I would imagine the least used plane in the whole of FC and you very rarely come across a human player using it, yes I know some use it but as I said very few are willing to put up with it's vices, after all it's supposed to be fun after work, not an extra workload resulting in loads of frustrating stick wrestling. 

 

 

I just can't relate to the difficulties described here. I wonder if there is anything different in my setup. I have a Warthog, and pedals. I'm a sedentary, muscle-weak 48 year-old, but could push the Warthog the whole day... I guess many peopke in ROF used response curves. I never did. Try flying the ROF SE5a with no curves, or elevator trim for that matter...

 

Maybe it's because I started flying in ROF, in zan N11, with a bad joystick, in rainy and windy scenarios. :)

 

But true, I still often ground loop the DR1 on landings. :)

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17 hours ago, Bemused said:

Tried one of the new campaigns in a DR I.  With throttle at about 60% was having to pitch the stick far forward to maintain level flight.  Copped then that reducing throttle would bring the nose down which it did.  Then got into fight with Camels.  Turning is like riding a drunken monkey.  It swings up and down, much worse to the left.  I find it so hard to keep control.  Rudder seems more important than in WWII AC.  Those in the know please enlighten me.

 

Well described.  I went through all that myself.  Got frustrated and quit three times.  But I couldn't let it go.  So I flew a lot of QM taking it up really high and experimented until it made basic sense; and then fine-tuned my technique for target-relative flight.  Now that I have a feeling for the rotary-specific control inputs (and subsequently, those of the Camel which I also could not master) the plane is an absolute joy to fly and a great blade to bring to a knife fight.

 

Don't give up.  Just keep flying it; you'll figure it out.  It's worth doing.  Good luck.

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Its a women's plane. You have to tell it to turn right If you want to turn left and never get distracted when she Talks to you. 😉

 

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On 5/23/2020 at 9:09 PM, J2_Oelmann said:

Its a women's plane. 

 

 

But it takes a man to tame her. A man with good hair. A man with soft hands and a hard head. A man with an intense dislike of those pansies in D7's. A man with a big ruler …. because rotaries rule.

 

Now I'm a Camel kind of chap who rarely flies the dark side so my interest was piqued by the OP's inquiry. Having not flown the Dr1 before (I'm serious), I jumped into the campaign and hopped into the Dr1, set the sights and took off in the first mission. Bagged 3 Camels and 2 Biffs and finished the mission with a successful landing. Yeah I know … they're bots but still ….

 

So my first impression is that I found her pretty good to fly. A bit easier than the Camel actually. Spins are not terrifying and seem to auto correct unlike the Camel which can be a nefarious bloody wench of a thing. Use of rudder is similar to the Camel. And her wings don't fall off easily. She can take some punishment. Landing tail up on low revs with a bit of blipping and letting her settle worked well. Better than my Camel landings but it may have been beginners luck? The downside is that middle wing obscuring your view.

 

I have to add that I use the MSFFB2 twist stick. No pedals. FFB does helps relieve the forward stick pressure and can give you warning signs of stalls etc so that of course is an advantage. 

 

But you can use SHFT+A "auto level" if your hands get tired. Between engagements of course.

 

I think I'll test her out on some of the MP servers.

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On 5/27/2020 at 5:20 PM, catchov said:

 

I have to add that I use the MSFFB2 twist stick. No pedals. FFB does helps relieve the forward stick pressure and can give you warning signs of stalls etc so that of course is an advantage. 

 

Do get some pedals if you can. It makes a difference. Or at least try them out somewhere to see how it feels like.

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1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

Do get some pedals if you can. It makes a difference. Or at least try them out somewhere to see how it feels like.

 

You're right Bidu I really should. Helps with Camel spins does it? I wish I wasn't so cheap and lazy. I need to pull my finger out.

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15 minutes ago, catchov said:

 

You're right Bidu I really should. Helps with Camel spins does it? I wish I wasn't so cheap and lazy. I need to pull my finger out.

Well, the twist stick isn't so bad - the problem is that it's difficult not to inadvertently add in a bit of rudder or aileron when you're inputting the other control.  As well as making control more precise (when you get the hang of them - may take a while), pedals do add to the immersion.  You just have to weigh up the cost vs "quality of life" improvement, and decent ones are expensive.  Mine are "entry level"  (CH Pro) and they cost around £100.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, catchov said:

 

You're right Bidu I really should. Helps with Camel spins does it? I wish I wasn't so cheap and lazy. I need to pull my finger out.

 

You're welcome.

 

I see you're having a rough childhood. That is sad. But don't worry - it will build character.

Edited by J2_Bidu
To throw my Zen buddhism overboard.

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Start with the Albatros. Best plane to start with. Easy to master and fly.
Also map your radiator controls so you don't burn your engine.

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8 hours ago, =CfC=FatherTed said:

Well, the twist stick isn't so bad - the problem is that it's difficult not to inadvertently add in a bit of rudder or aileron when you're inputting the other control.  As well as making control more precise (when you get the hang of them - may take a while), pedals do add to the immersion.  You just have to weigh up the cost vs "quality of life" improvement, and decent ones are expensive.  Mine are "entry level"  (CH Pro) and they cost around £100.

 

Thanks Father. Valuable advice. I should inform you however I have sinned you know. Just a little bit. Am I still eligible? 

 

43 minutes ago, J2_Bidu said:

 

You're welcome.

 

I see you're having a rough childhood. That is sad. But don't worry - it will build character.

 

Lol I have no answer to that except to say, yeah, ditch the Zen man. ;)

 

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I quite enjoyed the Dr.1 and easily finished the campaign in a couple of days.  It takes a lot of attention no doubt, but with good rudder pedals and a stick extension (VKB Gunfighter Pro) you can get some serious maneuverability out of this plane.  I'm usually a below-average dogfighter, but 22 camels and 3 two-seaters fell to my guns in this campaign alone.  😵

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14 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

I quite enjoyed the Dr.1 and easily finished the campaign in a couple of days.  It takes a lot of attention no doubt, but with good rudder pedals and a stick extension (VKB Gunfighter Pro) you can get some serious maneuverability out of this plane.  I'm usually a below-average dogfighter, but 22 camels and 3 two-seaters fell to my guns in this campaign alone.  😵


It has one flaw though: Drag. You can't escape anything. So if you're in a fight, you must stay in the fight until it ends. 
That's the only reason Adam and Spitfire don't fly the Dr.1 ( ;) hehehheheh)

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Thanks lads. Can handle it much better now and shot down 3 in the first mission.  I still find it hard to keep sights on the target though - it just wants to "swim" left and right a little.

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If you're using head tracking, I recommend a small deadzone in the center of your axes.

This helps you keep 'looking down the barrel'.


S!

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On 6/1/2020 at 8:22 AM, 127Tom said:


It has one flaw though: Drag. You can't escape anything. So if you're in a fight, you must stay in the fight until it ends. 
That's the only reason Adam and Spitfire don't fly the Dr.1 ( ;) hehehheheh)


Agreed, the drag is a huge disadvantage.  You won't outrun anything in this Fokker!  

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On 5/29/2020 at 12:26 AM, catchov said:

You're right Bidu I really should. Helps with Camel spins does it?

 

No - they're not involved.

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5 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:
  On 5/29/2020 at 9:26 AM, catchov said:

You're right Bidu I really should. Helps with Camel spins does it?

 

5 hours ago, Cynic_Al said:

 

No - they're not involved.

 

Okay good. So extrapolating a bit further,  just tell me Al (no-one else, I want an advantage see. Understand.;)) what is the secret, the method if you will, of disengaging oneself from a Camel's brutal RH and LH spins? I have a particular method which works sometimes but more than often not? And sometimes doing nothing works? What gives here? Spins kill me in the Camel more than anything else. Yes even weak wings. 

 

Please help. It's got so bad I've resorted to flying the Dr1. :sorry:

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1 hour ago, catchov said:

 

 

Okay good. So extrapolating a bit further,  just tell me Al (no-one else, I want an advantage see. Understand.;)) what is the secret, the method if you will, of disengaging oneself from a Camel's brutal RH and LH spins? I have a particular method which works sometimes but more than often not? And sometimes doing nothing works? What gives here? Spins kill me in the Camel more than anything else. Yes even weak wings. 

 

 

To get one issue out of the way, unlike RoF the FC Camel self-recovers from right-hand spins, which I consider to be more correct.  To recover the RoF Camel from a right-hand spin, just push forward and right. No rudder, no throttle reduction.

To recover either Camel from a left spin, hold the stick back and left for about a second then jab it forwards. No rudder, no throttle reduction.  No time to do a video now, but it really is that simple.

 

 

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On 6/2/2020 at 11:48 PM, Zooropa_Fly said:

If you're using head tracking, I recommend a small deadzone in the center of your axes.

This helps you keep 'looking down the barrel'.


S!

 

Good tip Zoo. I've always just used the default profile. But flying against humans demands every shot counts. So I set a deadzone. Is good. Is better. 

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On 6/2/2020 at 2:48 PM, Zooropa_Fly said:

If you're using head tracking, I recommend a small deadzone in the center of your axes.

This helps you keep 'looking down the barrel'.


S!

Yes this is an excellent tip. I decided to give it a try today and I'm kind of kicking myself now I hadn't thought of it or learned of it earlier, working a treat so far!

Thanks for sharing.

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Makes centering your view a whole lot easier too - no need to disable Tracking.

 

S!

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On 5/23/2020 at 2:57 AM, Bemused said:

Tried one of the new campaigns in a DR I.  With throttle at about 60% was having to pitch the stick far forward to maintain level flight.  Copped then that reducing throttle would bring the nose down which it did.  Then got into fight with Camels.  Turning is like riding a drunken monkey.  It swings up and down, much worse to the left.  I find it so hard to keep control.  Rudder seems more important than in WWII AC.  Those in the know please enlighten me.

 

If it's anything like Rise of Flight, the Dr1 is not a beginner aircraft, Dr1 and Camel are two of the most dangerous (to their own pilots) airplanes in the game. Takes a long time to master them.

 

If you want to jump straight into a campaign, try Pfalz or Albatros and Pat Wilson Campaign Generator they are very nice to fly.

If you really enjoy the challenge though stick with the Fokker Dr1 and Camel in QMB fighting loads of enemies, turn on unlimited ammo and invulnerability. Skill comes from time in furballs not from time flying straight. 40+ hours of dogfighting with mindfulness of how you use the rudder will make them into weapons for you.

 

Didn't see anyone mention it but make sure you master the use of the blip switch, there's other posts with more detail on this.

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Posted (edited)

The Dr.1 went from being a nemesis to one of my favorite aircraft, both to fly in and to fly against 😄

And I say that having mostly played against it back pre-Nerf in RoF. and mostly in it post-Nerf.

 

It does one thing and does it well: tight turning dogfights. But you're too slow to catch anything and too slow to run away, so really your ability to dogfight is entirely dependent on your opponent's willingness to indulge you.

 

While I've loved the Camel since I was young, I still haven't ever gotten quite to the same level of enjoyment with it that I have with the Dr.1. I do like it more in Flying Circus, though; I think it's more approachable than before.

 

Reducing fuel loads to something less than 50% is a good bet, especially for dogfight / fast food environments, and is almost mandatory for the Camel (it's not quite as bad in FC as it was in RoF).

 

Oh, and one last thing: rudder is tremendously important in WWI planes. A few years back I "splurged" on some MFG Crosswinds pedals, and they're the single best investment I've made in terms of my flight simming experience. Good rudder control is absolutely vital for getting the most out of these crates.

Edited by DakkaDakkaDakka

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On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2020 at 5:57 PM, Bemused said:

Tried one of the new campaigns in a DR I.  With throttle at about 60% was having to pitch the stick far forward to maintain level flight.  Copped then that reducing throttle would bring the nose down which it did.  Then got into fight with Camels.  Turning is like riding a drunken monkey.  It swings up and down, much worse to the left.  I find it so hard to keep control.  Rudder seems more important than in WWII AC.  Those in the know please enlighten me.

Just like the real thing! You wouldn't want the sim to portray it any differently would you?

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Posted (edited)
On 5/22/2020 at 8:06 PM, J2_Bidu said:

It is not hard. But the controls you own certainly make a difference. Do you have pedals?

 

I tried the 1600m (?) Thrustmaster throttle with the big flappers set up for rudder, worked fine.

I now modded my warhthog throttle set with a new axis control button: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx29Fbb2Rqc

 

No need for pedals i think.

 

Edited by jollyjack

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Posted (edited)

DR1 is by far my favorite Flying Circus craft. I might be swayed if they ever add an Albatros D.III

 

Part of the joy of it is the difficulty of getting in tune with it. That said, once you do, it is almost unbeatable 1v1 ... except by the very best Camel pilots.

 

I find that with both it and the Camel, you really need to let the plane do the flying and you just talk gently to her to coax her where you want to go. The camel actually hits back much harder if you overstep her boundaries. 

Edited by SCG_Wulfe
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