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Posted (edited)

You know, before a version, you do not see any 50KM additional content. Due to certain official functions ..., leading to the distant white body occurs, I think this be considered cheating sources.
Since the 2D user function better than VR, and our lack of proper VR Zoom in no time at official

Edited by =GW=a7610783
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On 5/23/2020 at 12:45 PM, =GW=a7610783 said:

要知道令人難以相信置信的服務,在某個版本之前,您看不到50KM另外的任何內容。由於約會了某種功能...(官方本地),我認為這被認為是作弊的來源。

 

由於2D用戶功能比VR更好,而且我們在官方

Underworked下缺乏正確的VR縮放

Strongly agree.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2020 at 8:45 PM, =GW=a7610783 said:

要知道令人難以相信置信的服務,在某個版本之前,您看不到50KM另外的任何內容。由於約會了某種功能...(官方本地),我認為這被認為是作弊的來源。

 

由於2D用戶功能比VR更好,而且我們在官方

Underworked下缺乏正確的VR縮放

 

Why not try to use Google translator and write it down in English? 

Edited by Dutch2
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1 hour ago, Dutch2 said:

 

Why not try to use Google translator and write it down in English? 

His message: "

Be aware of the incredible services that you can't see anything else in 50KM before a certain version.Because dating had some kind of function...(Official local), I think this is considered a source of cheating.

Since 2D users function better than VR, and we are in the official

Lack of proper VR scaling under Underworked"

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3 hours ago, Dutch2 said:

 

為什麼不嘗試使用Google翻譯器並用英語寫下來呢? 

this is google......XD...

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What is the ASW .... And how to 'pull it off' ??? 

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6 hours ago, =GW=a7610783 said:

this is google......XD...

 

At least you can try, think 80% of the non English speaking members here, me included, has difficulties in writing down English, but with the help of web-translators, spell checkers and I’m sure the Chinese have much better translation-engines, because Google is indeed not that good, you will eventually see progress in the English language. I assume you are Chinese, if not the blame is to Google autodetect.  

Now be prepared some here do make jokes about wrong writings, but what the hell who cares, let them have the joke, its only internet. 🍌

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Posted (edited)

 I'm Taiwanese

my english is not good

but I'm still trying to express my personal opinions and views

No offense, this is just a syntax error caused by translation errors

Edited by =GW=a7610783
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2 hours ago, =GW=a7610783 said:

我是台灣人。

我英文不太好。

但我仍在嘗試表達我的個人觀點和看法。

沒有冒犯,這只是由翻譯錯誤引起的語法錯誤

 

Great! Why don't you write your text in the translator program then copy and paste the English version here on the forums? Your opinion will reach more people that way.

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13 hours ago, Gordon200 said:

His message: "

Be aware of the incredible services that you can't see anything else in 50KM before a certain version.Because dating had some kind of function...(Official local), I think this is considered a source of cheating.

Since 2D users function better than VR, and we are in the official

Lack of proper VR scaling under Underworked"

Google translate the having makes the one having a confusing.

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4 hours ago, =GW=a7610783 said:

我是台灣人。

我英文不太好。

但我仍在嘗試表達我的個人觀點和看法。

沒有冒犯,這只是由翻譯錯誤引起的語法錯誤

Taiwan #1

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Posted (edited)

oh....i'm sorry....

I copy not right...XD

If I try to edit he automatically jump back to Chinese ...

This error is unlikely to translate smoothly to watch I translated the English translation corrections directly on the site, leading all changed back to my native language

1 hour ago, HunDread said:

 

大!您為什麼不在翻譯程序中編寫文本,然後將英文版複製並粘貼到論壇上?您的意見將以這種方式吸引更多人。

I'm sorry 

Is my error

Edited by =GW=a7610783

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So still very much confused around the new settings. 

 

Maybe as questions:

  1. We already had AA technology before in the engine, after the update now it got replaced by a choice of FXAA or MSAA. So what did we have before? MSAA? Some secret 1C AA?
  2. Both FXAA and MSAA can be toggled between 0, 2 and 4 under anti-aliasing slider. Does this result in 4xFXAA or 2xMSAA? So 0 in anti-aliasing means no FXAA or MSAA at all? 
  3. For VR you can the also adjust SS as before. So combining FXAA/MSAA and SS is doubling on the effect? E.g 4xFXAA and SS at 100% is equal to 0xFXAA and SS at 140% could be equal in terms of performance and image quality and spotting? [obviously making numbers up as I guess 4xAA and 140% SS are not equivalent]

 

So the choice is now along the three axis of [MSAA/FXAA], [0-2-4], [SS ratio] to optimize for quality / performance / spotting? 

 

Thanks! 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mephisto said:

Maybe as questions:

  1. We already had AA technology before in the engine, after the update now it got replaced by a choice of FXAA or MSAA. So what did we have before? MSAA? Some secret 1C AA?
  2. Both FXAA and MSAA can be toggled between 0, 2 and 4 under anti-aliasing slider. Does this result in 4xFXAA or 2xMSAA? So 0 in anti-aliasing means no FXAA or MSAA at all? 
  3. For VR you can the also adjust SS as before. So combining FXAA/MSAA and SS is doubling on the effect? E.g 4xFXAA and SS at 100% is equal to 0xFXAA and SS at 140% could be equal in terms of performance and image quality and spotting? [obviously making numbers up as I guess 4xAA and 140% SS are not equivalent]

 

So the choice is now along the three axis of [MSAA/FXAA], [0-2-4], [SS ratio] to optimize for quality / performance / spotting?

 

  1. Don't know what the previous "AA" was. It wasn't labeled as anything specific. But since it's gone now, it kinda doesn't matter. It was different though.
  2. 0 is no antialiasing, 2 is 2x, 4 is 4x, and that's FXAA or MSAA depending on what you selected. Total options are no AA, 2x FXAA, 4x FXAA, 2x MSAA, 4x MSAA.
  3. VR does supersampling, which is a brute-force antialiasing technique. FXAA and MSAA do clever things with the scene and shaders to detect pixels that might be aliased (jagged lines) and then do extra work to smooth just those pixels. Supersampling is dumb. It just renders the entire scene at more than 100% pixels, then squashes it back down to the size it needs for the headset. This removes jagged edges too, but it's really expensive as you're rendering way more total pixels before the squash. Combining FXAA/MSAA plus supersample does not "double" the effect, but it certainly increases smoothing. Because all three (FXAA, MSAA, supersampling) work differently they all give different types of smoothing at different performance hits. We cannot say (without measuring) how the levels compare in terms of performance and image quality.

The choice is now FXAA or MSAA or none, at either 2x or 4x, plus some amount of super sampling. Supersampling in particular is directly at odds with spotting. If you want the best spotting, use zero supersampling (SteamVR 100%, pixel density 1.0) and 2x or 4x MSAA.

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Thank you. Very helpful.

 

Now in terms of spotting the questions remains what is the better technology (FXAA vs. MSAA). On this one it seems that MSAA is leading judging by various posts on the forum?

 

On image quality: If one starts at 100% SS in the second step you go for increase in SS while balancing performance / spotting vs. image quality. 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Mephisto said:

Now in terms of spotting the questions remains what is the better technology (FXAA vs. MSAA). On this one it seems that MSAA is leading judging by various posts on the forum?

 

On image quality: If one starts at 100% SS in the second step you go for increase in SS while balancing performance / spotting vs. image quality.

 

Two people who I trust, since their credentials are "knows lots about VR and is actually a competent fighter pilot", are Talon and Fenris. Both of them say that MSAA is better for spotting. If performance is not an issue, 4x MSAA is better for spotting.

 

But performance is also important in a dog fight. Talon is using 4x FXAA and 1.1 supersample as a compromise so that he can still have 80FPS on his hardware in most situations.

 

Fenris' thread always contains his latest thinking on best settings for spotting. He does extensive testing with his squad mates. Sometimes people who know what they're talking about* disagree with him, but it's 100% a good place to start.

 

 

If someone claims to know about VR but also seems to think 40 FPS is 'fine', or gives pronouncements on performance without actual benchmark numbers, well, they don't know what they're talking about and the entire rest of their advice should be ignored. There are unfortunately several individuals in the VR community who have questionable knowledge but pass themselves off as being the ultimate authority on things VR. I guess that's the same as getting financial advice on Reddit -- buyer beware.

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2 hours ago, Alonzo said:

Don't know what the previous "AA" was. It wasn't labeled as anything specific

 

I did some experiments with our previous AA in monitor and also SS in VR:

I think our previous AA was the basic AA technique to blur a bit everything, including edges.

 

It was also testing the visual of SS with the Rift:

https://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/30771-how-much-ss-is-desirable-image-quality-samples/

 

It would be good to produce a similar matrix in monitor to compare MSAA and FXAA with a fixed image from a recorded track. Both for spotting and identification objects. So in VR it would produce similar effects.

 

Then we have the third variable, the SS in VR. That value is very dependent of every device since every device uses a different internal supersampling ratio. And as said, the SS is conceived to get visual gain in details and as a side effect you also get softer edges, so less FXAA or MSAA might be needed.

 

I have still not experimented with the current MSAA or FXAA, but best way is to get the same image and compare.

The gif posted by Talon could be good if they can be provided as native images in a fixed non animated image, in a matrix as above. This forum rescales images and the result is not realistic.

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That's a good idea as well. For me, I've had two scenarios to check which seemed always most important to me: One was to see a contact coming from higher, then flick on HUD/ID via shortcut immediately to check distance once spotted. And the other was when a contact is moving below over the forest. They are both important tactical scenarios.

 

The first scenario was usually difficult if Gamma was too high, and got worse results the higher the Supersampling went. It shouldn't, but that was the result. The second was less ceteris paribus, but we got to find out some truths: It got more difficult the less static the background was (fuzzy landscape and extended forest range on Ultra settings were negatives), the lower the framerate was (a steadily moving object was easier to track and detect), and the less an aircraft blended into likewise colors with pre-4.006 Anti-Aliasing (a dark plane would be "swallowed" by the equally dark forest).

 

In general, it might be that too many people underestimate the effect a low framerate has on their spotting ability, for example when running on 60Hz - that may explain some difficulties. They're searching for an artifact against a steady landscape. The less this artifact is pronounced to be an independently moving object, but more of a flicker or feature of the landscape, the more it is ignored by perception. Perception rests only very shortly at some point. Good lenses are also important, the tinier the sweetspot, the harder it may become. These are things that are hard to put into tests though.

 

Btw, I must mention that I haven't tested post-4.006 enough yet to be fully satisfied with the accuracy of my impressions. The sample must be larger, and if chili could get some through-the-lens shots that would be fantastic as well. I will have more time for that during the latter part of the week too.

 

 

 

And I fully agree with Alonzo too. Someone who posts "40fps is fine for me" and spams everywhere how good his performance is still with 5000x3000p, without actually doing any real testing, and then snapping arrogantly at others, mentioning "a zoom is not needed people just need to upgrade their systems", while never having flown in a competitive environment, is hard to listen to. Like bad music put three times through autotune. Makes our ears bleed and lose faith in humanity. 😒

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17 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

For me, I've had two scenarios to check which seemed always most important to me: One was to see a contact coming from higher, then flick on HUD/ID via shortcut immediately to check distance once spotted. And the other was when a contact is moving below over the forest. They are both important tactical scenarios.

 

The first scenario was usually difficult if Gamma was too high, and got worse results the higher the Supersampling went. It shouldn't, but that was the result. The second was less ceteris paribus, but we got to find out some truths: It got more difficult the less static the background was (fuzzy landscape and extended forest range on Ultra settings were negatives), the lower the framerate was (a steadily moving object was easier to track and detect), and the less an aircraft blended into likewise colors with pre-4.006 Anti-Aliasing (a dark plane would be "swallowed" by the equally dark forest).

 

In general, it might be that too many people underestimate the effect a low framerate has on their spotting ability, for example when running on 60Hz - that may explain some difficulties. They're searching for an artifact against a steady landscape. The less this artifact is pronounced to be an independently moving object, but more of a flicker or feature of the landscape, the more it is ignored by perception. Perception rests only very shortly at some point. Good lenses are also important, the tinier the sweetspot, the harder it may become. These are things that are hard to put into tests though.

 

This is really interesting data. It does seem to coincide with where the guys in our squadron ended up -- 4xFXAA + 1.1 pixel density. This is for Rift S / 8700K / GTX 1080, a fairly standard combination several people bought ~18 months ago. Technically 4xFXAA is less good than MSAA for spotting, but FXAA is able to give them 80 FPS on the 1080, MSAA cannot. So the reliable framerate may make up for the slightly less good contact contrast.

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That is exactly right. The difference in pure spotting range or being able to differentiate objects from forests with FXAA to no AA might be so minor, that the picture quality gained may even be more important to the eye. It's so important to hold a steady framerate too. Eyes, sense of balance, and thus attention (which we need) also get tired by fuzzy pictures, or fluctuating or low framerate.

 

The latter was actually something Oculus and HTC reps (was it even Palmer?) mentioned at fairs when the first headsets hit the market - you'd need a steady 90Hz, or people will get sick, tired and exhausted. It's a reason why I'm looking forward to my 8KX with mixed feelings. 75Hz, at best 80Hz. I felt comfortable in the Rift S at 80Hz. I hope that will be fine as well.

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1 minute ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That is exactly right. The difference in pure spotting range or being able to differentiate objects from forests with FXAA to no AA might be so minor, that the picture quality gained may even be more important to the eye. It's so important to hold a steady framerate too. Eyes, sense of balance, and thus attention (which we need) also get tired by fuzzy pictures, or fluctuating or low framerate.

 

The latter was actually something Oculus and HTC reps (was it even Palmer?) mentioned at fairs when the first headsets hit the market - you'd need a steady 90Hz, or people will get sick, tired and exhausted. It's a reason why I'm looking forward to my 8KX with mixed feelings. 75Hz, at best 80Hz. I felt comfortable in the Rift S at 80Hz. I hope that will be fine as well.

 

I used Quest with Link some just to see how it was, it did not really bother me and it is a 72 Hz headset.

I would probably not want to go any lower though.

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5 hours ago, Alonzo said:

The choice is now FXAA or MSAA or none

We only have two options, MSAA or FXAA , dont see an option for none.

Or that is on Nvidia panel?

 

image.thumb.png.3504aefaae4d71f46dc693dd89958dbf.png

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

We only have two options, MSAA or FXAA , dont see an option for none.

Or that is on Nvidia panel?

 

image.thumb.png.3504aefaae4d71f46dc693dd89958dbf.png

Set antialiasing level to 0?

Edited by E69_Qpassa_VR
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2 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said:

We only have two options, MSAA or FXAA , dont see an option for none.

Or that is on Nvidia panel?

 

image.thumb.png.3504aefaae4d71f46dc693dd89958dbf.png

 

Move the slider for the level to the left for off.

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Just now, dburne said:

 

Move the slider for the level to the left for off.

Ok thanks.

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I was having a horrible time spotting against the ground, the trick of 100% SS helped a lot (in a way unfortunate because we are forced to turn down graphics quality even if the PC has enough HP to run it) I was running at 112% before, that small amount helped.

 

Shadows at ultra also helps for spotting.

Using MSAA 4x

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1 hour ago, SCG_motoadve said:

I was having a horrible time spotting against the ground, the trick of 100% SS helped a lot (in a way unfortunate because we are forced to turn down graphics quality even if the PC has enough HP to run it) I was running at 112% before, that small amount helped.

 

Shadows at ultra also helps for spotting.

Using MSAA 4x

That was my experience before the patch, also. It is still true now - supersampling makes the relatively few pixels we have to spot harder to spot. 

 

No supersampling, 4xMSAA, sharpen, and the blurry landscape filter look great and I've been able to spot and I'd better than before.  

 

Thanks to everyone who has been doing all this testing and reporting!

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I am adjusted to AA off nowadays in VR. In that other sim it was a necessity because of performance to turn it off. If you fly 4 weeks consequently without AA you stop noticing the flimmering. When I turn on AA accidently I am shocked by the blurry image and knock it off asap. 🙂

 

(Still locking forward to use supersampling with a 3080 in the future.)

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Did some testing last night. The best combination for spotting so far was actually Steam VR SS at 100% and 4x MSAA, other settings as per Fenris's cfg in the pinned thread. Delivers a good balance between image quality and performance on my system. I was actually surprised how good the image quality was with MSAA, despite "only" SS at 100%. Cons visibility is very good as compared to pre-patch, obviously could be subjective. But on multiple occasions I either would see a con rather far away at a distance I never had spotting before or I would arrive at a target with a much better SA as I could see and map all cons without usual "o shit" moments when cons start showing up unexpectedly at mid-distances. It seems MSAA (or maybe just change in the engine) actually increases the size of the dots, especially at the long / mid-distance. Cons would become visibly smaller when engaging zoom. So far also good tracking above ground, due to the map was not able to test tracking above forest. 

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Posted (edited)

On a Rift S plugged to a RTX 2080, after trying SS at 1.25 for a while, for performance and clarity I ended up with:

- SS back to 1.0 as it made far away planes too hard to see

- 2x FXAA in game (FXAA seems to help with the cloud artifacts)

- Sharpen post proc which seems to be applied after the in-game FXAA

- Then FXAA enabled in nvidia cp to reduce the amount of shimmering induced the the sharpening (probably wouldn't be necessary if the sharpen wasn't just on/off)

- MFAA in the nvidia cp

 

With this startup.cfg:

Spoiler

    3dhud = 0
    adapter = 0
    bloom_enable = 0
    canopy_ref = 1
    desktop_center = 1
    detail_rt_res = 1024
    draw_distance = 0.27400
    far_blocks = 0
    fps_counter = 1
    fps_limit = 0
    full_height = 720
    full_width = 1280
    fullscreen = 1
    gamma = 1.00000
    grass_distance = 0.00000
    hdr_enable = 0
    land_anisotropy = 2
    land_tex_lods = 0
    max_cache_res = 1
    max_clouds_quality = 2
    mgpu_compatible = 0
    mirrors = 1
    msaa = 0
    multisampling = 1
    or_ca = 0.00000
    or_dummy = 0
    or_enable = 1
    or_height = 1776
    or_hud_rad = 5
    or_hud_size = 0.85
    or_ipd = 0.06350
    or_sipdc = 0.30000
    or_width = 1648
    post_sharpen = 1
    preset = 2
    prop_blur_max_rpm_for_vr = 155
    rescale_target = 1
    shadows_quality = 3
    ssao_enable = 0
    stereo_dof = 5.00000
    vsync = 0
    win_height = 720
    win_width = 1280

 

End result in a clear weather skirmish in BP map with 8x vs 8x in sub 7msec gpu frametime according to the oculus debug tool and it keeps it under 12msec while in the clouds in "heavy" weather in the same sort of skirmish. Keeps enough bling like canopy reflections and decent shadows for immersion; I guess you could tone those down to gain another couple of msecs.

 

Edited by Firdimigdi

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With these frametime, why not. 🙂

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Posted (edited)

I keep testing between 4X and 2X MSAA and find I find targets easier at 2X. I'm surprised so many people are saying 4X is better. Are they using native resolution on their headsets? With the Index 100% is still super-sampled (2240x2016) which is where I've settled in my testing.

Edited by VR-DriftaholiC

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On 5/25/2020 at 5:53 PM, Alonzo said:

Don't know what the previous "AA" was. It wasn't labeled as anything specific. But since it's gone now, it kinda doesn't matter. It was different though

 

In a mailing sent yesterday by 1CGS it was explained all 4.006 update and hotfixes. It says:

 

"Also, we have added an additional and faster method of anti-aliasing called FXAA. You can also use the previous MSAA anti-aliasing option if you wish."

 

So, I understand that the previous AA technique it is the current MSAA.

 

The improvements in the CPU frametimes could be then explained by the new FXAA and the new referred rendering.

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On 5/25/2020 at 1:46 PM, =GW=a7610783 said:

oh....i'm sorry....

I copy not right...XD

If I try to edit he automatically jump back to Chinese ...

This error is unlikely to translate smoothly to watch I translated the English translation corrections directly on the site, leading all changed back to my native language

I'm sorry 

Is my error

 

It’s a plot by big brother.

 

Normally that would be a joke, somehow I’m not quite so sure in this case.

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On 5/25/2020 at 6:43 AM, Niiranen-VR said:

What is the ASW .... And how to 'pull it off' ??? 

asynchronous space warp

 

turn off via CTRL + NUMPAD 1

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Posted (edited)

Tied to override the MSAA in game to 2X, 4X, and 8X with NVCP via both the override and enhance settings. Neither work in VR. Likewise I don't see any difference using MFAA in either setting.

 

For me the best spotting is 2X MSAA in game. More contrast is lost at 4X MSAA.

 

For sub pixel polygons the only solution is more actual pixels. But I think we all already knew that.

Edited by VR-DriftaholiC

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Only thing that work with VR in Nvidia Control Panel is Power Management and Virtual Reality Pre-Rendered Frames.

I think you can also inject some FXAA with it if game is running MSAA, but I wouldn't.

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15 minutes ago, dburne said:

Only thing that work with VR in Nvidia Control Panel is Power Management and Virtual Reality Pre-Rendered Frames.

I think you can also inject some FXAA with it if game is running MSAA, but I wouldn't.

 

Might work if I run it in extended mode instead of direct mode. Not gonna try though.

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7 hours ago, dburne said:

Only thing that work with VR in Nvidia Control Panel is Power Management and Virtual Reality Pre-Rendered Frames.

I think you can also inject some FXAA with it if game is running MSAA, but I wouldn't.

 

MFAA seems to still work as well. Driver-forced FXAA seems to be applied at the end of the render chain to the entire game image.

I use it to tone down the game's sharpen filter as I run MFAA, FXAAx2 ingame -> ingame sharpen filter -> nvidia FXAA.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Firdimigdi said:

 

MFAA seems to still work as well. Driver-forced FXAA seems to be applied at the end of the render chain to the entire game image.

I use it to tone down the game's sharpen filter as I run MFAA, FXAAx2 ingame -> ingame sharpen filter -> nvidia FXAA.

 

So, MFAA is a form of MSAA alternating the samples that are used. It basically takes half of the 4 samples of MSAA 4X and one frame and the other 2 the next. So you essentially get nearly MSAA 2X performance with MSAA 4X sample size. It shouldn't even work with FXAA as it is a post process effect. If the sharpen filter is so strong you need FXAA to tone it down why not try MSAA X2 and no sharpen filter and no NVCP junk. You will likely have better spotting, a similar image and performance. If anything is going to crush tiny planes into obscurity it's surely an end of render chain blur.

Edited by VR-DriftaholiC

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