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Why does the MG-151 sound like it has a slower fire rate compared to the Mk-108?


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While flying i noticed something a little odd. You all might know that the MK-108 (German 30mm cannon) has a fire rate of 650 rounds per minute, while the MG-151/20 (German 20mm cannon) has a fire rate of almost 750 rounds per minute.

I was flying my Bf-109K4 equipped with the MG-151/20 other day and noticed that, while shooting, the 20mm cannon sounds a lot slower firing than the 30mm cannon. Is it supposed to be like that? Am I the only who has noticed that? Is it a bug? Let’s discuss this. 

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Also to me the MG151/20 sounds slower firing than the MK108, particularly in external view.

 

As a general comment,  after being used to the MK108 in Il-2 1946, it feels a bit underwhelming here both in terms of sound and "shaking" effect.

But i don't know which one is more realistic.

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2 hours ago, Toppaso said:

don't know which one is more realistic

Neither to be honest. talking to WWII pilot Joe Peterburs, he stated that the only thing heard from the cockpit was an extremely loud engine noise that drowned out everything else This was the case when firing all the guns on his P-51. Impacts from enemy fire were also never heard but larger rounds hitting did cause vibration though the airframe. 

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I think the guns sounds in general are a bit gamey. But this is a game after all. Real gun sounds are not as remarkable. Just maybe a dampened thud from the vehicle interior. A popping sound from the exterior. Just check out the T2 behind the scenes where they are creating the sounds for the guns. They aren't meant to be realistic, they are meant to sound cool.

 

It would be cool to have an option to choose between the gamey sounds and more realistic sounds though. There are people that like both.

Edited by Danziger
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Recalling the first day I played IL-2 BOS, the excellent sound effects of the guns made me extremely shocked. Nomatter  they are realistic or not.

Edited by Oyster_KAI
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44 minutes ago, Oyster_KAI said:

Recalling the first day I played IL-2 BOS, the excellent sound effects of the guns made me extremely shocked. Nomatter  they are realistic or not.

 

I agree, especially if you compare the sounds of most of the guns to their IL-2 1946 counterparts, mostly when you look at (or better: listen to) the MGs. The MG-131 sounded syntethic and not very beliavable, especially from inside the cockpit back in the day.

 

While it might be true that you shouldn't hear the weapons at all from inside the cockpit, the sound design as it is feels quite astonishing.

 

I have to agree with the OP though, that the MK-108 sounds somehow off in its' current iteration. But maybe that's only because I can't get its' hammering 1946 BOOM sound out of my head 😅

 

Edited by Fritz_X
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On 5/13/2020 at 1:51 PM, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

Neither to be honest. talking to WWII pilot Joe Peterburs, he stated that the only thing heard from the cockpit was an extremely loud engine noise that drowned out everything else This was the case when firing all the guns on his P-51. Impacts from enemy fire were also never heard but larger rounds hitting did cause vibration though the airframe. 

This is the realistic options.  If this game was to be realistic we would have had only vibration and enginenoise   A tad more difficulties having a steady aim and no gun sound. Unless going idle on the throttle. 
one got to admire the few aces for their success thrir situational awareness despite the unpleasant environment they where in. 
This realism is not wanted in the community. We want to hear and see dramatic effects

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56 minutes ago, 216th_LuseKofte said:

This is the realistic options.  If this game was to be realistic we would have had only vibration and enginenoise   A tad more difficulties having a steady aim and no gun sound. Unless going idle on the throttle. 
one got to admire the few aces for their success thrir situational awareness despite the unpleasant environment they where in. 
This realism is not wanted in the community. We want to hear and see dramatic effects

I think it would be cool to have it available as a realism option. The sound as heard in the cockpit with a helmet on. Especially for VR users. Wearing a headset with headphones and sitting on one of those butt kicker chairs with a FFB stick.

Edited by Danziger
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31 minutes ago, Danziger said:

I think it would be cool to have it available as a realism option. The sound as heard in the cockpit with a helmet on. Especially for VR users. Wearing a headset with headphones and sitting on one of those butt kicker chairs with a FFB stick.

I am not a VR fanatic, but it isthe only affordable thing I can use being in a WW2 cockpit. 
You are right, and there goes the reason why I like DCS I16 better than GB version. It is that bit more overwhelming. I never understood why until now. 
I wss wondering to place a buttkicker on my stick. Ffb is a dream of mine combined with the quality I have. 

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Quite honestly, saying fuselage mounted cannons cannot be heard on the basis that wing mounted machine guns can't be heard is quite fallacious.

 

Even if the noise from the bullet's sonic boom and the expanding propellant gases is mitigated completely by the engine and slipstream, that still leaves the massive bolt carrier impacting the gun's floor piece at quite a high velocity. Especially for the 109 a case can certainly be made how the engine cannon should be very audible because its case protrudes into the cockpit area.

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52 minutes ago, PainGod85 said:

Especially for the 109 a case can certainly be made how the engine cannon should be very audible because its case protrudes into the cockpit area.

Or the 110s, which had the 20mm's muzzles directly under the floor plates under the pilote's seat.

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1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

Or the 110s, which had the 20mm's muzzles directly under the floor plates under the pilote's seat.

 

And the Hs 129.

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3 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

Quite honestly, saying fuselage mounted cannons cannot be heard on the basis that wing mounted machine guns can't be heard is quite fallacious

I'm sure when firing cannons you would most certainly hear something and feel the vibration but I don't think it would be the sort of  "rat tat tat" sound that we hear in game. As for wing mounted guns we shouldn't hear them at all. Originally the gun sounds were much lower in the game but eventually we're made louder. I understand that folks want that "special effects" sound but I personally would prefer a more subdued sound.  

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32 minutes ago, 6./ZG26_Custard said:

I'm sure when firing cannons you would most certainly hear something and feel the vibration but I don't think it would be the sort of  "rat tat tat" sound that we hear in game. As for wing mounted guns we shouldn't hear them at all. Originally the gun sounds were much lower in the game but eventually we're made louder. I understand that folks want that "special effects" sound but I personally would prefer a more subdued sound.  

 

But why are you quoting me here? I essentially said the same thing you did, only omitting what kind of sound would end up being the result.

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As the same arguments keep coming up in other threads  about engines, tech chat, zoom, sound, blackouts etc etc - I want to reiterate that most of the occasionally 'gamey' UI or Effects options are there to provide feedback and information that a real pilot would get through methods that cannot easily be replicated through a monitor in a home. Vibrations, Gravity, Tiny differences in timing and cues of sounds and movement, force required to move control surfaces - even peripheral vision is something we do without. In many cases these must be replaced or supported with other solutions.

 

Simply put - A pilot firing his guns would be aware of them firing. The easiest and most satisfactory way to give that feedback to a sim pilot is through meaty, well designed sound effects. It may not be an accurate representation of the amount of sound feedback the real pilot would get, but it's not an unrealistic representation of the amount of total feedback they'd get - and moreover, sound plays a HUGE role in how weapons are perceived in games. I've even personally ran balance tests where a much lambasted weapon was "buffed" by simply changing the sound it made, and all complaints about how underpowered it was went away. I definitely prefer the current solution personally, a more subdued effect might work for some, but asking for complete silence seems unreasonable to me - that'd be just as unrealistic, only in a slightly different way.

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1 hour ago, PainGod85 said:

why are you quoting me here?

 

5 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

saying fuselage mounted cannons cannot be heard on the basis that wing mounted machine guns can't be heard is quite fallacious

I'm quoting you because I wasn't sure if the above statement was a generalisation or you were specifically replying to a point made ? If it was  general reply to my first post on the thread then I did not say 

cannons shouldn't be heard I said that I didn't think that the sounds were realistic. I said wing mounted 50 cals couldn't be heard. 

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10 hours ago, PainGod85 said:

Quite honestly, saying fuselage mounted cannons cannot be heard on the basis that wing mounted machine guns can't be heard is quite fallacious.

 

Even if the noise from the bullet's sonic boom and the expanding propellant gases is mitigated completely by the engine and slipstream, that still leaves the massive bolt carrier impacting the gun's floor piece at quite a high velocity. Especially for the 109 a case can certainly be made how the engine cannon should be very audible because its case protrudes into the cockpit area.

 

9 hours ago, Yogiflight said:

Or the 110s, which had the 20mm's muzzles directly under the floor plates under the pilote's seat.

 

7 hours ago, LukeFF said:

 

And the Hs 129.



In youtube there is a video of an Uruguayan Air Force IA-58 Pucará COIN aircraft from the cockpit firing at the ground. The armament is similar to these planes, twin Hispanos below the fuselage and four 7.62mm machine guns at the sides of the cockpit, you can hear the guns firing over the whiny turboprop engines. In the timestamp they fire the 20mm cannons and some moments later the machine guns, both can be heard.

Edit: Cheesy music warning :P
 

 

Edited by -=PHX=-SuperEtendard
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11 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

 



In youtube there is a video of an Uruguayan Air Force IA-58 Pucará COIN aircraft from the cockpit firing at the ground. The armament is similar to these planes, twin Hispanos below the fuselage and four 7.62mm machine guns at the sides of the cockpit, you can hear the guns firing over the whiny turboprop engines. In the timestamp they fire the 20mm cannons and some moments later the machine guns, both can be heard.
 

 

 

Whoever set this clip to music needs his ass kicked. It should be illegal.

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31 minutes ago, -=PHX=-SuperEtendard said:

 

 



In youtube there is a video of an Uruguayan Air Force IA-58 Pucará COIN aircraft from the cockpit firing at the ground. The armament is similar to these planes, twin Hispanos below the fuselage and four 7.62mm machine guns at the sides of the cockpit, you can hear the guns firing over the whiny turboprop engines. In the timestamp they fire the 20mm cannons and some moments later the machine guns, both can be heard.

Edit: Cheesy music warning :P
 

 

What's funny is that actually sounds like cheesy 90s video game gun sounds lol.

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On 5/15/2020 at 5:30 AM, chuter said:

Engine and a whooosssshhhhing wind noise.

 

Mostly the wind noise. Dug up some recent studies a while back and even gliders have damaging levels of white noise just at the low air speeds they are operating at.

 

Given that that is broad spectrum noise, rather than the more frequency specific noise of aircraft engines (volume is not what determines whether you can hear something, it is volume in band that controls whether you can hear it. This is why a high soprano soloist can cut through a heavy metal band in full thrash mode, when a bass will be lost in the sound, even though the soprano may be outputting less energy.)

 

Adding a noise floor to represent the white noise wind noise also solves the issue of people turning off their engines to hear the other planes without resorting to gimmicks lie making piston engines restart like turbo-props. (Sorry old pet peeve...)

 

@MattS @Danziger What you are going to hear on recording is going to depend heavily on what type of microphone you are using and how it is set up. I think this is the video where he explains (and demonstrated) the impacts of different mike types on sound, but its in the list somewhere:

 

 

Edited by Voyager
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