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Migoto Is a Cheat. Devs please Ban this!


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By all means, please do so.  I made an effort.  I shared it with you.  I even explained what I was doing.  You're welcome.

 

If you watch you will see how the zoom works.  Fast insta zoom = 3d Migoto Mod.  Slow zoom in/out?  In game zoom.  Some settings work only in VR.  Some only work in monitor mode.  For the benefit of all I tried to show what the different perspectives are with the mod on and off, on single, triple screen and in VR.  You know, so people could see and judge for themselves.  I invite you to do the same.  If you see something I don't please enlighten me.  Regardless of the zoom level or mode, it does not make things render that are not already there.  

Don't like my vid?  I don't blame you.   It isn't very entertaining.  That's not what it is for.  Nor is it a five to seven minute whine fest on the merits or demerits of a particular mod.  

It's a video.  Of what I see.  On my system.  In game.  That's all it was meant to be.  It was not meant to be a hunting tutorial or even an arguement for or against the mod.  Just video.

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1 hour ago, 69th_Bazzer said:

 

While we're at it, make axis planes as visible as allied.

 

 

Well, besides paintjobs - polished steel vs. flat grey.  lol

 

It's only partially the lighting that makes the spotting hard.  The devil in the details is that for close spotting planes against background, a very close approximation of 3D definition on a 2D screen has to be created.  Even VR is just a 2D screen for each eye.  If a grey plane flies over a town that's mostly grey, in 2D the images are on the same plain.  There really is no altitude separation that we'd be able to discern like the 3D we see in real life.  How exactly to solve the problem to give the illusion of 3D considering the medium being used is something that an expert and very talented artist and also programmer would probably still have a very difficult challenge in accomplishing, if it is even truly possible.  

It's not just about object size, shading, shadows effects and render distance.  

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2 hours ago, mincer said:

Can we just ask to disable Migoto for non-VR users?

Lol why?  If you try it you will only find in game zoom works better than 3dmigoto zoom on non VR sets.  Look at the rectical in the video.  It will give you a sense of scale you can understand.  Take it away from the user base and some will suggest it's an exploit for those that like it.  Better all to have access to it.  3dMigoto mod does more than just zoom you know.

 

(NOT directed at mincer ) Jesus I just posted this.  All you have to do is look.  You don't even have to install the mod ffs to see what it does and what it does not.  The video is there.  

 

Know what?  Just do it yourselves.  Or don't.  If you can't be bothered to follow a few instructions I don't know what to do for you.  You can see for yourselves what it does and does not.  It even comes with an uninstall.bat too!

 

The developers made a decision to support the mod community.  But we have a chorus of folks who can't be bothered to see for themselves what mods like this bring to the table.  They just decide something is so, even when told and shown the contrary.  Right now this chorus of what I assume are other people who like simming as much as I do, are threatening the development of my beloved simulation because they care more about what they "think" parity is and forcing the rest of us to adopt it.  Same bunch that complain about everything.  Instead of saying "Hey that's really cool!  How did you do that?" We have instead people who would instead knock over the chessboard for the rest of us.  Meanwhile the developers and mods keep their collective hands out of this stupid arguement lest they get sucked into the vortex of single minded thinking that is this thread.  I don't blame them.

 

Want a bigger screen?  Get a bigger monitor.  Want better performance?  Get a better system.  Want me to give up my toys because you think I have some advantage you don't because you are not using the same toys?  Piss off.  Think I have the right to tell you how and what to play on, on comms or off, single or multi-player, wwi or ww2, Allied or Axis?  What monitor, resolution, size etc YOU can play with? Well, I wouldn't blame you for telling me to piss off either.

Edited by JG51_Beazil
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20 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

The developers made a decision to support the mod community. 

Yes. And they created a mode specifically to run with mods enabled. Many players (the vast majority) do not want to play online with mods. So there is a mode for that too. This mod should follow the rules and only be usable with Mods On. Simple as that. Otherwise it’s a cheat or exploit because every player doesn’t have it equally. 

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37 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yes. And they created a mode specifically to run with mods enabled. Many players (the vast majority) do not want to play online with mods. So there is a mode for that too. This mod should follow the rules and only be usable with Mods On. Simple as that. Otherwise it’s a cheat or exploit because every player doesn’t have it equally. 

And yet none have banned it.  Hmm...

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36 minutes ago, JG51_Beazil said:

Visibility?

Yea so I remember when When BOBP was released with a patch. The "visibility" for me was great I could see everything from far distances and with great details. People said it was unrealistic and not fair because for low-end PCs it caused crashes and massive FPS drops and basically was unplayable for some people they said. 

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Ah, just wanted clarification.   I loved the changes in visibility that patch brought.  The majority of server admins don't appear to share my enthusiasm for it either and most have it turned off.

I remember it too.  :)

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Forget for a second about this mod, what else could be done nowadays? Invisible cockpit? Different texture for the planes?

We need a proper zoom for VR integrated in the game and a checksum validation to be sure that no one has modified original files, at least in the most serious servers

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3 hours ago, JG51_Beazil said:

If you watch you will see how the zoom works.  Fast insta zoom = 3d Migoto Mod.  Slow zoom in/out?  In game zoom. 

No, you can gave instantaneous zoom in 2d without mod. I used this setup before VR. Just bind an axis to zoom and set the axis with your joystick software suite.

 

What to say for the "mod" logic ? Yes theorically it should be linked to "mod" option checked. But ID in VR is just not possible  without proper zoom,  and did you see how much server have "mod on" option ?

So let's set it up and you will have two options :

  • no more mod server are available than today, so most of VR users will stop to fly, so server that are "so crowded" today will become empty and then you will complain about the too few players
  • server migrate to mod on to maintain the number of pilots and then you will have far much risks than 3dmigoto, because this lib is changing nothing  on game logic and on objects that are displayed. And you may have to fly on them to find anough people...

The others option should be to have same zoom in VR than in 2D, or "official mods", but that means more work on dev team, so that's up to them.

Regarding the "cheat" possibility with the current mod just invented some days ago, I still expect to see an illustration of an advantage for 2d users in real game conditions. Yes, you can see the same objects bigger by stacking 2d zoom and 3dmigoto zoom. And then ? You will have a very small FoV and  won't see more things, just more details very hard to follow because of the insane small FoV.

So do it, use the mod online and report the exploit you have done with the extra zoom, by showing the differences between normal and 3dmigoto mod. Do not just post a video done offline. Show the objects that the mod should display that normal zoom is not displaying.

Edited by c6_lefuneste
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1 hour ago, c6_lefuneste said:

server migrate to mod on to maintain the number of pilots and then you will have far much risks than 3dmigoto, because this lib is changing nothing  on game logic and on objects that are displayed. And you may have to fly on them to find anough people...

 

All the Combat Box admins fly in VR, so if 3DMigoto becomes only available for "Mods on" then the most popular IL-2 server will become a "Mods on" server.

Edited by Talon_
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I don't want to see VR users disadvantaged but if this is becoming (or has become) a widespread mod (that doesn't require mods on mode) with non VR users I hope that the mod creator has a way of disabling its use permanently for non VR users or limiting the level of zoom that is achievable in line with the base settings that 2D monitors can achieve without this mod. 

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Lefuneste, 

When the next game update comes and the mod won't work anymore and need maintenance, you might as well take out part of the code / change it so that it won't work for 2D monitor users.

 

That's their argument; that it would be too good for monitor users. That it doesn't zoom in LOD over the ingame zoom they just ignore. For VR it's necessary, but they don't seem to acknowledge or understand that, nor care. So you can just cut 2D out, when the older mod versions won't work without the upgrade anymore anyway.

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Couldn't be bothered to go through all of the posts, and just adding my 2p.

 

3DGimoto doesn't make you a killer.  It also doesn't necessarily help you spot stuff quicker.  Many times my squad mates call out contacts and it takes me a while to pick them up.  What I can do is then use this fix to ID them.  It also "feels" to me that those using 2D spot contacts quicker.  Even if I can see someone a long way away, I haven't seen anyone shoot someone down from 50km away yet. 

 

Where it does fall down is with alternate visibility and this is where I don't like it because you can see and ID stuff 10km away and that'd be tough in real life.  Turn that off and everything is better, but then 2D gets an advantage.  And on that note, 2D Track IR users have a huge advantage in locked pit pvp with owl necks and the ability to check 6 very quickly and easily.  In a furball I'd rather have that than creak my aching neck around. But, I don't want to lose that sense of immersion that VR gives you.

 

That's the way it goes, some will have one kind of advantage and others will have a different type of advantage.  Overall it doesn't really matter because it is supposed to be fun, and if you care more about your stats than the fun then your priorities are screwed.  In my opinion obviously, probably because my stats aren't very good!  😜

 

von Tom

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Yes its cheat, why devs alow it to be used without mods on is strange for me for long time. If VR users have poor zoom its on devs to fix it to same level 2D viewers can see so all are on same level and not left to cheat using mods on mods off servers. If one group of players is alowed to use programs to achive even 1% advantages to others its cheating and mods off servers are ment to provide all with same program, using this clearly brakes that. If zoom on VR is bad, players have to ask devs to fix it , and not cheat other players on servers that are ment to be mods off.

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For trackIR advantage vs VR, have a look here:

 

And yes, I will try to limit zoom when staked for the next version. In shader level, so it will be hard to change it for anybody. But I must find how to do that.

The worst thing will be to need "mod on" server. This option will allow real cheats.

Edited by c6_lefuneste
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There is no middle ground for VR users. There is stock extreme of being blind as a bat, and the Migoto mod extreme that allows for telescopic sight and offers advantage for target ID and somewhat spotting.

 

Same can be said for desktop users. Those with +50" 4K TVs (for the most part) can see and spot stuff better than us plebs on desktop monitors on puny 24"-27" screens.

 

Spotting needs a complete overhaul and a different approach. 

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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Le Funeste: Excellent idea to bring the 2D (without the mod) and 3D VR (with your mod) zoom capabilities as close as possible 😃.

But how to make sure that the current version of your current MOD cannot be used on the servers ?

Otherwise probably some pilots will keep this current version without taking any interest in the next versions of your MOD.

thx.

(deepl traduc)

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 I don´t have VR but a 1080p. A friend  does have VR and on TAW he is able to pick up contacts sooner(not by a lot) and most importantly Identify it waaaaay before I can from far out. The ability to identify a contact way before the enemy, who in turn is flying in 2D can identify you, is a huge unfair advantage, tactically speaking. You have more time to get your buddies(flying in VR or not) into the right position to engage. Therefore converting you into a WWII AWACS machine.

180 owl neck turning from Track Ir only helps once you are in the thick of a dogfight.

 

Like Thor said there is no middle ground and I¨m not going to pretend to know what its like to fly in VR cause i´ve never tried. But my friends first impression of the VR migoto at the time was that it felt like cheating.

 

I hope there is some way to reduce the ability for Identifying super far out as it currently stands with the Mod.

 

 

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4 minutes ago, NN_Elanion said:

Le Funeste: Excellent idea to bring the 2D (without the mod) and 3D VR (with your mod) zoom capabilities as close as possible 😃.

But how to make sure that the current version of your current MOD cannot be used on the servers ?

Otherwise probably some pilots will keep this current version without taking any interest in the next versions of your MOD.

thx.

(deepl traduc)

Usually an update breaks all the mods anyway. So only the new version would work, at least after a couple updates. 

 

51 minutes ago, c6_lefuneste said:

For trackIR advantage vs VR, have a look here:

 

And yes, I will try to limit zoom when staked for the next version. In shader level, so it will be hard to change it for anybody. But I must find how to do that.

The worst thing will be to need "mod on" server. This option will allow real cheats.

If you cannot make it impossible to use the mod in 2D with a reasonable amount of work, then it is far better to just leave it as it is and accept that some people are going to call it an exploit without being able to prove why.

I would much, much rather have people using this mod, even inappropriately, than have to fly on full mods on servers where people will have invisible cockpits or some crap, or simply have fewer servers to fly on at all.

You have done a lot of work on this for no compensation and I don't think its fair for people to expect you to do a lot more work because some people are using the mod inappropriately.

I haven't seen any evidence this is any better than patrolling known pathways or just playing with a bigger monitor with traditional zoom.

As for ID...if you are having trouble ID'ing planes at a distance, turn on sharpen. It makes a difference for me. I can almost always ID a fighter in planform at even large distances with the sharpen option checked, the shapes of the different aircraft are quite distinct between the sides IMO. With sharpen not checked, I find it more difficult to properly ID. 

 

4 hours ago, Talon_ said:

 

All the Combat Box admins fly in VR, so if 3DMigoto becomes only available for "Mods on" then the most popular IL-2 server will become a "Mods on" server.

This is why this whole thread is stupid. We would be cutting our nose off to spite our face to lock this in mods off servers. Everyone constantly complains that MP is 'dying' for whatever the flavor of the day reason is but this change would clearly have an actual big impact and INCREASE cheating. Like, this is an easy thing to foresee. Its not some unknown consequence. Until the devs do some serious work on visibility (and there's some evidence they are) then the mod is needed for VR. Non-VR users can put the mod on themselves and use it as a dubious exploit if its so great and it solves the long distance ID problem. 

If some guy wants to watch me struggle into the air and toodle towards my objective from halfway across the map, more power to him. Someone with actual skill and patience will kill him while he's playing voyeur through a telescope at me. 

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Okay... first things first.

 

1. The visibility issue is for medium distances. The lightning or lod make the aircraft appear smaller. It has nothing to do with this and I am sure the team is already working on a solution.

2. This is a mod intended for VR, the problem are the levels of zoom in 2D. If I go to my roof and get a super lens I can also see aircraft at 30km... if I know where to look.

 

This exploit is useless, unless you know the location of an aircraft already and zoom in there. You can argue all you want, but If I would do something, I would just force zoom up to a point. There is no need to be so dramatic.

 

I am sure when the visib at med distances is solved, people will forget about this.

 

And don't get me started on all the complaints now that state they have been shot down because of this. People love excuses.

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38 minutes ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

 I don´t have VR but a 1080p. A friend  does have VR and on TAW he is able to pick up contacts sooner(not by a lot) and most importantly Identify it waaaaay before I can from far out. The ability to identify a contact way before the enemy, who in turn is flying in 2D can identify you, is a huge unfair advantage, tactically speaking. You have more time to get your buddies(flying in VR or not) into the right position to engage. Therefore converting you into a WWII AWACS machine.

180 owl neck turning from Track Ir only helps once you are in the thick of a dogfight.

 

Like Thor said there is no middle ground and I¨m not going to pretend to know what its like to fly in VR cause i´ve never tried. But my friends first impression of the VR migoto at the time was that it felt like cheating.

 

I hope there is some way to reduce the ability for Identifying super far out as it currently stands with the Mod.

 

 

That's because you have an old year 2010 1080p monitor. Someone with a 65" 4K TV has an even bigger advantage over you. 

 

You have old gear. If you don't upgrade, that's on you. 

 

 

You sound like someone with a 20 years old convertible whose engine cannot keep up with modern cars. Or someone with a 720p monitor that could not spot other players in bushes in FPS games 10 years ago. 

 

Upgrade your potato.

Edited by SCG_Fenris_Wolf
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9 minutes ago, LF_Gallahad said:

I would just force zoom up to a point.

this might be a good way to go. 10x sounds like a bit too much and i understand people complaining about this being a "cheat" because you can ID with it.

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17 hours ago, JG51_Beazil said:

There is no clear rational thinking allowed here.  The answer is simple.  If I have a 70 inch to your 50 obviously not.  But you are a big cheater if I have a 24.  I'm pretty sure I read that in one of Plato's dialogues.

Haha nice one 😁

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18 minutes ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That's because you have an old year 2010 1080p monitor. Someone with a 65" 4K TV has an even bigger advantage over you. 

 

You have old gear. If you don't upgrade, that's on you. 

 

 

You sound like someone with a 20 years old convertible whose engine cannot keep up with modern cars. Or someone with a 720p monitor that could not spot other players in bushes in FPS games 10 years ago. 

 

Upgrade your potato.

Lol welll if 1080p isnt 95% of what the player base has in Il 2 then i´m defo the only one with a potato in your deluded view. but ok.

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This mod is required to level the playing field between 2D superzoom which is built into the game, and the anemic 1.5x VR zoom. The zoom levels need to be roughly equivalent between the two. I would prefer the in-game VR zoom to be improved so that it is adjustable (total amount of zoom, maybe a slider, allow instant zoom if we want) and then I could get rid of the mod, which robs framerate and needs to be updated by the mod author outside of the main game development process.

 

The developers do improve VR features -- recently we got the snap VR zoom (but only 1.5x) and of course they fixed the propellor artifact problems. I'm hopeful that an in-game adjustable VR zoom could be implemented, but until that's in the game, this mod is basically required for flying in VR.

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1 hour ago, ACG_Vietkong said:

 I don´t have VR but a 1080p. A friend  does have VR and on TAW he is able to pick up contacts sooner(not by a lot) and most importantly Identify it waaaaay before I can from far out. The ability to identify a contact way before the enemy, who in turn is flying in 2D can identify you, is a huge unfair advantage, tactically speaking. You have more time to get your buddies(flying in VR or not) into the right position to engage. Therefore converting you into a WWII AWACS machine.

 

 

Since you brought in military tactics in to this discussion I think your estimation of the advantage is based on a hunch and nothing else. And many episodes of Mythbusters taught me that hunches don't mean jack in real world applications.

 

Think about it:

A) you fly as a squad with capability to ID from very long distances. You're still in WWII birds without self guided rockets. So you communicate with your squad members to reposition in a staggered vertical formation for the maximum advantage in order to pounce on the enemy in a CLOSE fight.

 

B) you fly as a squad without the capability to ID from very long distances. Any more or less successful squad would have a training which assumes any Unidentified aircraft as Enemy. So what do you do? You communicate to your squad members to reposition in a staggered vertical formation for the maximum advantage in order to pounce the enemy.. bla bla bla..

 

So where's the advantage exactly?

 

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20 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

Since you brought in military tactics in to this discussion I think your estimation of the advantage is based on a hunch and nothing else. And many episodes of Mythbusters taught me that hunches don't mean jack in real world applications.

 

Think about it:

A) you fly as a squad with capability to ID from very long distances. You're still in WWII birds without self guided rockets. So you communicate with your squad members to reposition in a staggered vertical formation for the maximum advantage in order to pounce on the enemy in a CLOSE fight.

 

B) you fly as a squad without the capability to ID from very long distances. Any more or less successful squad would have a training which assumes any Unidentified aircraft as Enemy. So what do you do? You communicate to your squad members to reposition in a staggered vertical formation for the maximum advantage in order to pounce the enemy.. bla bla bla..

 

So where's the advantage exactly?

 

As far as ID goes, two guys looking at the same display will have vastly different abilities to ID based on visual acuity and experience. So one guy saying he can ID much farther away than another doesn't mean much. Time spent in the sim will have a much bigger impact on ID'ing aircraft than any change in display IMO.

Some planes just look really distinctive from some angles even at long distances. 109s just look like a skinny T in plan form. 190s looks like a stubby sharp little T (except the Dora, but its outline and wing shape is distinctive too). Allied planes just look a little softer in outline, with the exception of the P-51, but it looks like a lower case t compared to the upper case T of the 109, based on its wings being a little further back and the nose sticking out more. 

I don't know, looking at the airplanes there always seems to be hints even at long range that scream "axis" or "allied" to me. As long as I can spot them at all.

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14 minutes ago, RedKestrel said:

As far as ID goes, two guys looking at the same display will have vastly different abilities to ID based on visual acuity and experience. So one guy saying he can ID much farther away than another doesn't mean much. Time spent in the sim will have a much bigger impact on ID'ing aircraft than any change in display IMO.

Some planes just look really distinctive from some angles even at long distances. 109s just look like a skinny T in plan form. 190s looks like a stubby sharp little T (except the Dora, but its outline and wing shape is distinctive too). Allied planes just look a little softer in outline, with the exception of the P-51, but it looks like a lower case t compared to the upper case T of the 109, based on its wings being a little further back and the nose sticking out more. 

I don't know, looking at the airplanes there always seems to be hints even at long range that scream "axis" or "allied" to me. As long as I can spot them at all.

 

I agree, it's a matter of experience and time spent playing this game. My reply was specifically to ACG_Vietkong claim that there is somehow a huge advantage to be able to ID earlier in a squad setting. There isn't. If you fly TAW in a squad you got your shit together and should be ready for anything regardless your IDing capabilities.

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It is important to decide how you want to define a "cheat" before you decide if something is a cheat.

So far as I see it, there are three ways to define cheats:

 

1. A cheat is something that breaks the rules and gives an advantage

This is the most straight forward definition and it is how most sports define cheats. However, in IL-2, there isn't an obvious set of rules to reference so far as I know. If you want to use this definition, you must first either find the rules you want to reference or make some that everyone agrees on.

 

2. A cheat is software external to the game that gives an advantage

This one is tricky as there are examples of software that give players an advantage in IL-2 that most would not consider cheats. For example, reshade, navigation tools, motion platform software, etc. If you are going to accept some, but not others, then you need to use a different method to define cheats.

 

3. A cheat is something that is against the spirit of the game that gives an advantage

This one is also tricky as it is impossible to define the "spirit of the game" in a way everyone will be happy with and it is even harder to decide if certain things are against what ever you consider the spirit of the game to be. A narrow definition of the "spirit of the game" may end up being more like a set of rules, whilst a broad definition may end up unintentionally defining legitimate things as cheats.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

Since you brought in military tactics in to this discussion I think your estimation of the advantage is based on a hunch and nothing else. And many episodes of Mythbusters taught me that hunches don't mean jack in real world applications.

 

Think about it:

A) you fly as a squad with capability to ID from very long distances. You're still in WWII birds without self guided rockets. So you communicate with your squad members to reposition in a staggered vertical formation for the maximum advantage in order to pounce on the enemy in a CLOSE fight.

 

B) you fly as a squad without the capability to ID from very long distances. Any more or less successful squad would have a training which assumes any Unidentified aircraft as Enemy. So what do you do? You communicate to your squad members to reposition in a staggered vertical formation for the maximum advantage in order to pounce the enemy.. bla bla bla..

 

So where's the advantage exactly?

 

Ok let me put it plain in simple. Lets say we have a 2 ship that all have the VR mod flying same altitude as some bandits that do not have the mod. The VR mod pilots spots them and Identifies them before the bandits can. Does that not provide the initiative in the fight for the VR mods because they know what type of target it is and how to engage? Meanwhile the bandits that haven´t ID'd yet, still have doubts and are still in the decision making process?

No advantage? Ok.

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2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Everyone constantly complains that MP is 'dying' for whatever the flavor of the day reason is but this change would clearly have an actual big impact and INCREASE cheating.

The perception of cheating is never a good thing for multiplayer. Of course that’s why hardly anyone plays Mods On. But this Mod is definitely a potential exploit and belongs in that category. 

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2 hours ago, SCG_Fenris_Wolf said:

That's because you have an old year 2010 1080p monitor. Someone with a 65" 4K TV has an even bigger advantage over you. 

 

You have old gear. If you don't upgrade, that's on you. 

 

 

You sound like someone with a 20 years old convertible whose engine cannot keep up with modern cars. Or someone with a 720p monitor that could not spot other players in bushes in FPS games 10 years ago. 

 

Upgrade your potato.

In that way 1080p monitor players can make a mod to help theirselves  like others do for VR.

 

 what are the rules? if you spent more money you are allowed use advantage mods?

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2 hours ago, RedKestrel said:

Until the devs do some serious work on visibility (and there's some evidence they are) then the mod is needed for VR. 

VR players say that they need the mod to make up for the low resolution of their HMDs, there isn’t anything the Devs can do with regard to visibility which will help that. Many monitor and VR players think they need help spotting and IDing and justify this exploit based upon that. But a mod like this is still a cheat regardless of how you justify its use. 

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