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Need help in "Spot The Airplane"


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LColony_Red_Comet
5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again it’s literally the solution for the lack of color depth that makes visibility difficult in these sims. In a short time it will be as universal as anything else. 

No it isnt, because the implementation is all over the place and it puts being competitive in the game behind a hugely expensive paywall.

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SharpeXB
9 minutes ago, [DBS]TH0R said:

A perfectly calibrated monitor makes no difference with spotting here. Game has issues with colors and contrast.

A perfectly calibrated SDR monitor is still only going to show you a range of 16.7 million colors albeit the correct ones. HDR expands the range of colors to 1billion. That will certainly help any issues IL-2 has with color, and to a degree, contrast. 

1 minute ago, [TLC]MasterPooner said:

No it isnt, because the implementation is all over the place and it puts being competitive in the game behind a hugely expensive paywall.

Behind the same paywall as any other hardware? Your point is?

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LColony_Red_Comet
13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Behind the same paywall as any other hardware? Your point is?

No it isnt. Because all the other hardware is needed just to have a computer to play the game on. Differences in resolution can be adjusted for in the rendering. IF HDR actually fixed the contrast problems all on its own, which I doubt, it would place the different between being totally blind and or not behind a extremely expensive paywall. And your ignoring that HDR monitors come in at different peak brightness's among other factors, so it wont even be a panacea in that regard. The difference in advantage that an HDR screen of the highest quality would give (and this is granting that it actually fixes anything) would be much more severe than any other difference in setup. The game needs to be created so that players with all kinds of different gear have approximately the same experience when it comes to having an advantage. Its sheer lunacy to assert that the game should be based entirely around having one of the most expensive types of display.

 

And more the point, why would not want them to make changes to the way planes render to increase contrast? HDR adds more colors but it does not solve lighting problems that also affect how contrast is perceived. The bottom line is that a game engine is not a mirror of reality and that things have to be done to make things visible as they should be.

 

And it still does not solve the size problems.

Edited by [TLC]MasterPooner
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[DBS]TH0R
25 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

A perfectly calibrated SDR monitor is still only going to show you a range of 16.7 million colors albeit the correct ones. HDR expands the range of colors to 1billion. That will certainly help any issues IL-2 has with color, and to a degree, contrast.

 

And what when perfectly calibrated monitor can't show contacts in this sim? If a HDR certified monitor is needed, it should state so in the game requirements. Last I checked, it doesn't. Which defeats your "argument" entirely.

 

EDIT: Like [TLC]MasterPooner wrote, forcing a HDR as a requirement basically locks out a large portion of players, in an already a niche market. How - yes - no. 😁

Edited by [DBS]TH0R
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SharpeXB

In four weeks time, every flight sim player in the world is going to get a very strong incentive to have a 4K HDR display...

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SharpeXB
1 hour ago, [TLC]MasterPooner said:

The game needs to be created so that players with all kinds of different gear have approximately the same experience when it comes to having an advantage.

That’s not the case with every other type of hardware or peripheral. Why would it apply to monitors? Gamers are always seeking an “advantage” through hardware. Plenty of other games, including competitive FPS etc feature HDR and I’m not aware anyone considers that an unfair advantage. Visibility and resolution are important in every game but no game limits players hardware to level the field. 

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nighthawk2174

And most people aren't super rich I sure as h* couldn't afford a 1000 dollar monitor right now.  It is completely unreasonable to demand that someone must get a superb monitor, which may not even help that much as there are still other issues, and then the system to be able to run that setup.  The game should be able to compensate for a large range of monitors because that's what you have and what your going to continue to see.

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ACG_Smokejumper

Last night while I was in a high yoyo I watched my wingman disappear. He reappeared quickly but I was close and the 109s chasing him where still there. It happened a few times.

 

What is the cause of this?

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[DBS]Browning
11 hours ago, nighthawk2174 said:

And most people aren't super rich I sure as h* couldn't afford a 1000 dollar monitor right now.  It is completely unreasonable to demand that someone must get a superb monitor, which may not even help that much as there are still other issues, and then the system to be able to run that setup.  The game should be able to compensate for a large range of monitors because that's what you have and what your going to continue to see.

 

It is my impression that it is Sharpe's opinion that the goal of graphical development in the game is to produce as life-like an image as possible and if our hardware is unable to reproduce some things; that's a problem with the hardware, not the game.

Such a stance might mean that if a distant plane is smaller than a single pixel, it can't be seen unless you upgrade your display hardware to something with more pixels.

Sharpe has little flexibility on this matter and engaging him on it is largely pointless.

 

Like you, and the vast majority, I would rather us virtual pilots have a graphical system that gives us the information we should have (such as the location of aircraft), even if that means the image is less life-like because it needs to show things that the hardware is not capable of displaying in a life-like manner.

Such a stance might mean that if a distant plane is smaller than a single pixel, but a pilot could be expected to see it, it will be displayed in some form anyway either by increasing its size or having one or more pixels represent it in some way. Likewise, if the limitations of the hardware where to make a plane that should be easy to spot, difficult to spot, the image might be adjusted in some way to make it easier to spot, even if such an adjustment where to make the image less life-like.

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SharpeXB
4 hours ago, [DBS]Browning said:

 

It is my impression that it is Sharpe's opinion that the goal of graphical development in the game is to produce as life-like an image as possible and if our hardware is unable to reproduce some things; that's a problem with the hardware, not the game.

That’s certainly true. Even if you solve all the rendering issues, with current display technologies we are limited in resolution, contrast and color depth compared to the real world. Improving display technology is the only way to solve that. 
HDR isn’t some farfetched future technology. It’s commonplace today everywhere including this iPad I’m typing on. Literally every video display device down to cell phones. A year or so from now you probably won’t even be able to buy an SDR display. You guys are being luddites about this stuff and asking for solutions from twenty years ago. 
This game will need to remain competitive. 
In four weeks many people are going to walk into an electronics store and see the most gorgeous flight sim graphics ever created displayed on gigantic TVs and want this game to look just like that. 

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SharpeXB
10 minutes ago, Lolrawr said:

that is so specific, i`m curious what will happen in 4 weeks.

Do you live in a flight sim cave?

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Just now, SharpeXB said:

Do you live in a flight sim cave?

i dont know what that is, i have a joystick.

So whats up in 4 weeks? i really dont know what are you talking about, i`m out of the loop.

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LukeFF
2 minutes ago, Lolrawr said:

i dont know what that is, i have a joystick.

So whats up in 4 weeks? i really dont know what are you talking about, i`m out of the loop.

 

Microsoft Flight Sim 2020

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SharpeXB

Yeah but if you think other games in this genre can just rest on their laurels when it comes to graphics... that thing will be all over every electronics stores big 4K HDR TVs and the collective gasp of all the customers will be “is that a game!?”

 

It’s not a time to stand still for any sim title. 

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[DBS]TH0R

Comparing apples and oranges here. Civil and combat flight sims. Different budgets for different audiences, and with different requirements.

 

You've fallen under the hype train, and have taken this thread into heavy OT.

 

PS: I am betting my money that MS 2020 will not have spotting issues with SDR monitors. 😁

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ACG_Smokejumper
On 7/19/2020 at 3:15 PM, SharpeXB said:

In four weeks time, every flight sim player in the world is going to get a very strong incentive to have a 4K HDR display...

 

 

Why? Real question.

19 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but if you think other games in this genre can just rest on their laurels when it comes to graphics... that thing will be all over every electronics stores big 4K HDR TVs and the collective gasp of all the customers will be “is that a game!?”

 

It’s not a time to stand still for any sim title. 

 

 

Ahhh yeah nah.

 

When it's Microsoft COMBAT Flight Simulator then I'll care.

 

Hopefully they bring out new force feedback sticks.

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HunDread

I see two issues with spotting that were introduced with the last major update. These are only my observations, even just feelings so nothing scientific and can be totally wrong. And I rather mean spotting against ground here.

 

1. Before the update planes were shimmering, flickering a bit against the terrain with certain settings (blurred terrain, sharpen filter, moderate AA). Now they are not doing this while other objects are still shimmering (even more but thats probably because FXAA). So it seems to me the graphical changes were mostly applied to planes so far (if this is possible).

 

2. Before the update the planes that were far away enough to not render the skin yet were white. Now they seem to be black or dark at least. This also hurts spotting.

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ACG_Talisman
2 hours ago, HunDread said:

I see two issues with spotting that were introduced with the last major update. These are only my observations, even just feelings so nothing scientific and can be totally wrong. And I rather mean spotting against ground here.

 

1. Before the update planes were shimmering, flickering a bit against the terrain with certain settings (blurred terrain, sharpen filter, moderate AA). Now they are not doing this while other objects are still shimmering (even more but thats probably because FXAA). So it seems to me the graphical changes were mostly applied to planes so far (if this is possible).

 

2. Before the update the planes that were far away enough to not render the skin yet were white. Now they seem to be black or dark at least. This also hurts spotting.

 

Not sure that white planes was very realistic, so perhaps we have a better simulation for not having that now.  Also, perhaps the same could be said regarding the flickering too.  That aside, the difficulty we have in spotting aircraft appears to be a little too difficult overall.  I wish spotting was easier, but not to unrealistically easier.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

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HunDread
14 minutes ago, 56RAF_Talisman said:

 

Not sure that white planes was very realistic, so perhaps we have a better simulation for not having that now.  Also, perhaps the same could be said regarding the flickering too.  That aside, the difficulty we have in spotting aircraft appears to be a little too difficult overall.  I wish spotting was easier, but not to unrealistically easier.

 

Happy landings,

 

56RAF_Talisman

 

Yeah I agree it was not realistic if we specifically call out that these were factors helping spotting (if this whole thing is true in the first place). But the overall experience might have still been more realistic than what we have now. My gameplay experience is starting to degrade to an annoying hunt for sun reflections then most of the time losing the reflections.

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=VARP=Tvrdi

Visibility is completely broken now. Doesnt matter if alt visibility is ON. Planes are hard to ID past 5km. Unless one is using zoom in constantly but even then its not easy. So many times now happens planes popping up out of nowhere or just suddenly  disappear.

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BG26_Moostafa

I have issues with spotting aircraft in this game now too. I have tried adjusting settings, changing monitor sizes, and all the other would-be fixes I could find on the internet. I don't presume to know what the solution to this issue is, and I'm hoping that a fix comes sooner than later but, what I do know is that my wallet is closed to C1 until it is fixed.

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Legioneod

No settings will fix the problem currently. Some might help but you'll still have issues. Currently it's the way aircraft are rendered that is causing issues imo. Depending on the lighting, angle of the aircraft to you, distance, etc. The aircraft can either appear as a very very small pixel that is pretty much invisible or it can actually be invisible and not even render in the screen due to the lighting/angle of the aircraft.

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DJBscout

I just started and cannot see anything at all. It's absolutely ruining my experience.

 

I've flown some SP missions without too much issue, and actually had remarkably good results with spotting. I was able to see contacts out past 5km with little issue.

 

However, in (EDIT: full realism) quick missions or MP servers, I can't see anything. It seems like it doesn't matter which settings I tweak or how far I zoom in, aircraft are just fucking invisible. I've read all the guides, tweaked all the settings that didn't involve dropping my resolution, and I've noticed no differences.

 

Earlier on combat box, I took a Tempest up to about 10k feet over an objective I knew would be attacked. I circled around and waited. 4 separate times, it was attacked, and probably had aircraft near it at least 7 (according to the warnings/alerts). I watched for attacking tracers and friendly AAA, and zoomed all the way in on where it was shooting. Nothing. I dove in, roughly aligning my plane with where the enemy should be, zooming in all the way and scanning the entire line of tracers from friendly AAA. I did this every time an aircraft attacked. Circling, scanning, zoomed all the way in, where tracers were shooting. If I didn't spot, I'd dive to close distance, hoping to get a spot.

 

I made tally a grand total of two times.

 

Once, as I was practically in guns range (and aligned wrong), I caught a 109 in the middle of the flak's tracers. Unfortuantely, because it wasn't visible until I was ~600m away, I wasn't aligned right, and had to blow by him, at which point he had no issues slotting in behind me. Fortunately, I was coming out of a dive and was able to outrun him. However, even as soon as he turned away, by the time I had my nose back around, he was gone. No spot.

 

The second time, I caught an enemy flying away on the deck, as they were leaking fuel or coolant, probably ~1km out. However, I thought I was getting bounced (it was flak from a nearby city), so I turned my camera to look behind me. Realizing it was a flak burst, I turned my view back to where the enemy was. Poof. Gone. Scanned the whole frontal section, pulled up a bit and scanned the entire area. Nothing.

 

I also went to try and aid friendlies, and speaking with them on discord, with a near-exact location, I just couldn't see them. I had a friendly tempest on the deck whilst in a 38, and I came in at 14 thousand feet. He was on the deck, but couldn't see me till I was at 4k, and I never made tally, despite having an exact location to look at, and him passing almost directly under me. I can only occasionally spot contacts ~1km out, and it's goddamned awful.

 

I had a friendly mention that all the action was over a specific area (having been shot down by 4+ enemies low), so I headed that direction. I started scanning the area in question from 2 cities away, and never made tally on a single enemy the entire time, despite zooming in all the way to scan several times, methodically trying to work my way up. As I arrived (going quite fast, having gently dived from ~20k to 8 or so as I entered the area), I made tally on a 109 (though all I saw was a slightly moving white speck) about a km out, and was able to keep track of it as I pulled up, over and tried to slot in behind. Unfortunately, he had a wingman who went completely unnoticed, and pulled hard, ruining my shot. As I went into a slight climb to regain altitude, cannon shells in my canopy.

 

I'm coming to IL-2 from war thunder, and I've played "spot the dot" for hundreds of hours. I'm no stranger to looking for a speck against a background with your only cue being that the speck is moving. This is something else entirely. Unless they're against the sun/clouds, or within 600m, they're invisible. Especially looking down, where I might as well be staring at the floor of my cockpit hoping it turns transparent. I'll get the same results. It's unplayable, and it makes my blood boil. I can't comprehend how the devs think this is anything approaching acceptable.

Edited by DJBscout
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-332FG-Jack_
On 8/8/2020 at 4:48 AM, DJBscout said:

I just started and cannot see anything at all. It's absolutely ruining my experience.

 

I've flown some SP missions without too much issue, and actually had remarkably good results with spotting. I was able to see contacts out past 5km with little issue.

 

However, in quick missions or MP servers, I can't see anything. It seems like it doesn't matter which settings I tweak or how far I zoom in, aircraft are just fucking invisible. I've read all the guides, tweaked all the settings that didn't involve dropping my resolution, and I've noticed no differences.

 

Earlier on combat box, I took a Tempest up to about 10k feet over an objective I knew would be attacked. I circled around and waited. 4 separate times, it was attacked, and probably had aircraft near it at least 7 (according to the warnings/alerts). I watched for attacking tracers and friendly AAA, and zoomed all the way in on where it was shooting. Nothing. I dove in, roughly aligning my plane with where the enemy should be, zooming in all the way and scanning the entire line of tracers from friendly AAA. I did this every time an aircraft attacked. Circling, scanning, zoomed all the way in, where tracers were shooting. If I didn't spot, I'd dive to close distance, hoping to get a spot.

 

I made tally a grand total of two times.

 

Once, as I was practically in guns range (and aligned wrong), I caught a 109 in the middle of the flak's tracers. Unfortuantely, because it wasn't visible until I was ~600m away, I wasn't aligned right, and had to blow by him, at which point he had no issues slotting in behind me. Fortunately, I was coming out of a dive and was able to outrun him. However, even as soon as he turned away, by the time I had my nose back around, he was gone. No spot.

 

The second time, I caught an enemy flying away on the deck, as they were leaking fuel or coolant, probably ~1km out. However, I thought I was getting bounced (it was flak from a nearby city), so I turned my camera to look behind me. Realizing it was a flak burst, I turned my view back to where the enemy was. Poof. Gone. Scanned the whole frontal section, pulled up a bit and scanned the entire area. Nothing.

 

I also went to try and aid friendlies, and speaking with them on discord, with a near-exact location, I just couldn't see them. I had a friendly tempest on the deck whilst in a 38, and I came in at 14 thousand feet. He was on the deck, but couldn't see me till I was at 4k, and I never made tally, despite having an exact location to look at, and him passing almost directly under me. I can only occasionally spot contacts ~1km out, and it's goddamned awful.

 

I had a friendly mention that all the action was over a specific area (having been shot down by 4+ enemies low), so I headed that direction. I started scanning the area in question from 2 cities away, and never made tally on a single enemy the entire time, despite zooming in all the way to scan several times, methodically trying to work my way up. As I arrived (going quite fast, having gently dived from ~20k to 8 or so as I entered the area), I made tally on a 109 (though all I saw was a slightly moving white speck) about a km out, and was able to keep track of it as I pulled up, over and tried to slot in behind. Unfortunately, he had a wingman who went completely unnoticed, and pulled hard, ruining my shot. As I went into a slight climb to regain altitude, cannon shells in my canopy.

 

I'm coming to IL-2 from war thunder, and I've played "spot the dot" for hundreds of hours. I'm no stranger to looking for a speck against a background with your only cue being that the speck is moving. This is something else entirely. Unless they're against the sun/clouds, or within 600m, they're invisible. Especially looking down, where I might as well be staring at the floor of my cockpit hoping it turns transparent. I'll get the same results. It's unplayable, and it makes my blood boil. I can't comprehend how the devs think this is anything approaching acceptable.

This exact experience is common these days, and is why I barely fly. Ive been at this a while now and it doesn't really get better. It's the reason I haven't pre ordered Battle of Normandy, and the reason the people I started with quit entirely. It's literally costing them money, yet no word from the developers

 

You're not alone bud

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Wanted to add on to/clarify my above post a bit.

 

Firstly, I can hear an engine note and look all around. Seeing the enemy is incredibly difficult. As far as I'm aware, you have to be rather close to hear an enemy, so their dot shouldn't be very hard to find, but besides when someone is slotting in on my 6, I don't think I've found a single enemy whose engine note made me aware of their presence. It's not just a long range issue.

 

Secondly, I've had particular issues with reacquiring as well. Sometimes I'll catch a glimpse of an enemy a few km away, but if I break visual and try to reacquire, it's inexplicably difficult to make tally again. For example, if I look away for a half second to check trim, reorient camera, or check six, when I look back the target is gone. Doesn't matter if I'm looking at the same spot, or leading it a little to follow the contact's path. This is even more frustrating, as making tally in the first place is hard enough.

 

Breaking visual and then having to reacquire isn't exactly a rare occurrence either.

  • If see them while using the hat switch instead of head tracking, and want to switch to looking at them with head tracking, or they exit the FoV of a given view angle, I need to reacquire, either when I switch to head tracking or switching hat angle. (switching hat angle is especially troublesome, as when I'm zoomed in enough to see a target more than a few hundred meters away, the edges of different head angles don't overlap, so having to switch angles requires either zooming out or switch angles then start searching. Either way, contact must be broken)
  • If I want to turn my aircraft towards them to attack, I must break contact. This is especially nasty if I'm looping up and over, even at fairly close range. If they are anywhere that isn't directly in front of the nose of my aircraft, I'll have to break contact when they travel through the area of a window frame, at which point they disappear more often than not.
    • If I'm specifically trying to keep them in view (assuming I see them while head tracking), I'll roll partially inverted, look "up" (trying to keep them centered), and pull my nose towards them. Unfortunately, head tracking gets really weird trying to combine high pitch and yaw angles (of my tracker, not the plane), so actually keeping them in view is difficult. If I wanted to keep them horizontal/in line with my wings, I would need to somehow rudder over with no adverse yaw. This doesn't really work if I have any sort of speed behind me, and is also very slow to do.
  • If I want to zoom out to check my trim as I enter a diving attack, often the dot will disappear when I zoom out, and seemingly won't reappear when I zoom back in.
  • If my head tracking misreads (I'm using an aruco marker and my laptop's webcam, I can't afford TrackIR), or I move too aggressively, boom, contact broken, dot unable to be reacquired.

While it is supposedly harder to track enemies against the ground, I've honestly found the opposite to be true. I often cruise at 10k ft/3km+, but rarely, if ever, see any contacts above me or at approximately the same level. Spotting against the sky is nearly impossible. My best hope is contrails, but even when I zoom in on the start point of a contrail and track its progress, I can't see the actual plane creating the contrail.

 

Additionally, as far as I can tell, while your own canopy and gauges are full of glint and glare, your opponent's canopy will never glint or reflect light. (That being said, the interior glare was particularly difficult to deal with, so I turned it off. Is canopy/airframe glint implemented on higher glare settings?)

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SharpeXB
1 hour ago, DJBscout said:

and my laptop's webcam, 

This may be part of your trouble. Ever consider using a separate larger screen with the laptop? IMO those are too small to play a flight sim like this without labels. 

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On 8/10/2020 at 3:01 PM, SharpeXB said:

This may be part of your trouble. Ever consider using a separate larger screen with the laptop? IMO those are too small to play a flight sim like this without labels. 

 

I've considered it, but then I realized I didn't want to spend several hundred dollars on a larger screen that might help, and that using the TV wasn't exactly an option, as I don't live alone. I shouldn't need to buy a massive monitor just to be able to see targets. In test missions, it turns out that targets are visible, they're just ~1-2 pixels big, which makes them all but impossible to see, even when moving. Instead of watching a large portion of a screen scanning for movement, I have to watch tiny spaces, as otherwise the 1-2 pixels moving completely fades into the background. Personally, I don't even think a large monitor would help this much, it would just make the single pixel slightly bigger.

 

I don't exactly have the option to play with labels if I'm in multiplayer, and that leaves me at a disadvantage compared to other pilots.

 

I recently managed to get reshade to work on my PC, and with some tweaking, it made a night and day difference. While visual ID of the target aircraft's type is probably still restricted to well inside a km, I can now spot contacts a few km away. Unfortunately, this restricts my server choices, and revolves around the use of multiple sharpening filters, which makes some things not quite as pretty (gives a bit of a halo-y shimmer-y effect), but I'll still take that over planes being utterly impossible to see.

 

IIRC, planes were visible much further IRL. The sim shouldn't restrict the visibility to how their actual size would render, but rather so you have similar amounts of information to what an IRL pilot would, ideally without markers.

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[DBS]TH0R
18 hours ago, DJBscout said:

I've considered it, but then I realized I didn't want to spend several hundred dollars on a larger screen that might help, and that using the TV wasn't exactly an option, as I don't live alone. I shouldn't need to buy a massive monitor just to be able to see targets. In test missions, it turns out that targets are visible, they're just ~1-2 pixels big, which makes them all but impossible to see, even when moving. Instead of watching a large portion of a screen scanning for movement, I have to watch tiny spaces, as otherwise the 1-2 pixels moving completely fades into the background. Personally, I don't even think a large monitor would help this much, it would just make the single pixel slightly bigger.

 

I don't exactly have the option to play with labels if I'm in multiplayer, and that leaves me at a disadvantage compared to other pilots.

 

I recently managed to get reshade to work on my PC, and with some tweaking, it made a night and day difference. While visual ID of the target aircraft's type is probably still restricted to well inside a km, I can now spot contacts a few km away. Unfortunately, this restricts my server choices, and revolves around the use of multiple sharpening filters, which makes some things not quite as pretty (gives a bit of a halo-y shimmer-y effect), but I'll still take that over planes being utterly impossible to see.

 

IIRC, planes were visible much further IRL. The sim shouldn't restrict the visibility to how their actual size would render, but rather so you have similar amounts of information to what an IRL pilot would, ideally without markers.

 

Your post perfectly sums up the current state of affairs as related with spotting and just how bad the situation currently is. No, larger monitor won't help. Unless you go with 1080p and 50" TV that would enlarge 'them pixels (higher pixel pitch).

 

This needs fixing and a complete revamp, like yesterday.

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=L/R=StaryMruk

Please make plane visibility better ASAP. Now it is more like a moving pixel spotting contest on LCD screen 30 cm from your eyes then air combat. Thank you for working on this!

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