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Non-agressive AI..What's happened?


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Just practicing in SP mode and finding the AI really passive.

 

Out of interest I took an LA5 out against 4 x BF109 K4 aces and noticed how many passes they made with missed oportunity to shoot.

 

I got bored in the end not being attacked, or hit, so let them follow and took a video. 

 

I'm sure they've been a lot more aggressive than this before?

 

 

 

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The AI bots are piss poor even on Ace setting. They can not hit you with basic gentle maneuvering, and keep missing, yet the gunner bots can snipe you from afar at ridiculous closing speeds and angles.

 

Only suggestion I would say is steer clear of the piss poor bots on this game. It's been like this for a long while.

 

 

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins
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6 hours ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

The AI bots are piss poor even on Ace setting. They can not hit you with basic gentle maneuvering, and keep missing, yet the gunner bots can snipe you from afar at ridiculous closing speeds and angles.

 

Only suggestion I would say is steer clear of the piss poor bots on this game. It's been like this for a long while.

 

 

You're right, the AI bomber gunners are a different story, posing more of an SP challenge for practicing, but rarely see bombers in MP and especially without fighter escort to deal with too.

 

I'd like to see the basic gameplay like AI figthers sorted out before I hear things like deferred shading even mentioned. 

 

 

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Flying Patrick Wilson mission generator together with mates in coop
I dare say the ai is worthy opponents, come from nowhere and always shoot down one of us in first pass. 
When we finally get to dogfight with them they are by no means sitting ducks. But most dangerous when your not knowing they are there

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I can't confirm this. We encounter a very competetive AI in our weekly COOP missions. Especially if they outnumber us, then situations get hot very fast. Sure, its not a human pilot, but sometimes they can get you in serious trouble. 

 

My Mission settings for enemy fighters are; 

 

Every WP priority for AI patrol missions; LOW

Leading plane; ACE

2nd and 3rd plane; HIGH

4th and eventually 5th and 6th plane; NORMAL

 

They are only "passive" if their WPs are set to MEDIUM. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, HBB*Hunger said:

 

They are only "passive" if their WPs are set to MEDIUM. 


Thank you for explaining that. It make sense. 
I personally experience a general improvement on ai. And this topic reflect a fault that might actually be mission settings

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2 hours ago, HBB*Hunger said:

I can't confirm this. We encounter a very competetive AI in our weekly COOP missions. Especially if they outnumber us, then situations get hot very fast. Sure, its not a human pilot, but sometimes they can get you in serious trouble. 

 

My Mission settings for enemy fighters are; 

 

Every WP priority for AI patrol missions; LOW

Leading plane; ACE

2nd and 3rd plane; HIGH

4th and eventually 5th and 6th plane; NORMAL

 

They are only "passive" if their WPs are set to MEDIUM. 

 

 

 

I'm not too sure what you mean by WP?  Way point perhaps?

Just to clarify, I used the in game quick mission, which is what I based my original post on and here are the settings showing the AI was set to what I believed were Aces. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

 

Quick Mission Settings.JPG

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I see a lot of plane to plane variation in the AI fighters.

 

I16s, Yaks, Mc 202s, 109E7s, and 109 Fs all put up a vigorous fight, in generated missions using SYN_Vander's mission builder tool,  yet in the QMB I've had late 109s simply run away from me and never engage.

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1 minute ago, BlitzPig_EL said:

I see a lot of plane to plane variation in the AI fighters.

 

I16s, Yaks, Mc 202s, 109E7s, and 109 Fs all put up a vigorous fight, in generated missions using SYN_Vander's mission builder tool,  yet in the QMB I've had late 109s simply run away from me and never engage.

 

Maybe your Good Looks?

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I'm not sure what's up with QMB but when I use it I have seen varying behavior.  It does seem like fighters are acting like they are flying to medium priority waypoints at times (FYI: this behavior is I would rather fly to my destination but I will do something if you attack me).  It usually happens some time after the initial merge.  I have no insights at all as to what QMB is really doing but that is the feeling I get based on quite a bit of mission making.

 

AI turned loose (low priority waypoints) is getting better and better.  In my campaigns my kill counts have gone down, my AI squad mates kill counts have gone up, and I get hit way more often than I ever did.  It's a massive improvement over 6 months ago.  

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Random is the better setting for AI in QMB than ACE.  So I have found, ACE seem to be rather pathetic, maybe there for peoples egos but not for fighting against.

 

Career is where AI comes to life and can be quite a handful.  Also, on a bomber intercept (6x Stukas with 4 109 G4 Escort) when I told my flight to stick to the mission, 2 of my flight peeled off to engage the fighters and myself and another AI focused on the Stukas.

 

AI is a constant work in progress and they are progressing.  AI gunners on aircraft are quite a handful though.  Accurate even in hard evasive maneuvers.  You really have to come in at them slipping sideways, fire and get the hell out, to have a hope of not getting pinged.  Easier to deal with when you have bomber killers like FW190s or Tempests but quite intimidating in lesser armed aircraft.

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3 minutes ago, blitze said:

Random is the better setting for AI in QMB than ACE.  So I have found, ACE seem to be rather pathetic, maybe there for peoples egos but not for fighting against.

 

Ouch, even the mid-level AI gives me a run for my money...

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2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

I'm not sure what's up with QMB but when I use it I have seen varying behavior.  It does seem like fighters are acting like they are flying to medium priority waypoints at times (FYI: this behavior is I would rather fly to my destination but I will do something if you attack me).  It usually happens some time after the initial merge.  I have no insights at all as to what QMB is really doing but that is the feeling I get based on quite a bit of mission making.

 

AI turned loose (low priority waypoints) is getting better and better.  In my campaigns my kill counts have gone down, my AI squad mates kill counts have gone up, and I get hit way more often than I ever did.  It's a massive improvement over 6 months ago.  

 

I can confirm this. 

 

If you want chalenging AI don´t use QMB but use PWCG. In advanced setup use AI +4, take P40 on Stalingrad map and than you will have hell. :-)

 

IMHO I have feeling that AI behaviour differs with different maps. Can somebody confirm this? Maybe this is connected with plane types that AI fly, but for example AI on Stalingrad map in PWCG is more dangerous than on Kuban or Moscow map.

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6 minutes ago, Columbar said:

 

I can confirm this. 

 

If you want chalenging AI don´t use QMB but use PWCG. In advanced setup use AI +4, take P40 on Stalingrad map and than you will have hell. 🙂

 

IMHO I have feeling that AI behaviour differs with different maps. Can somebody confirm this? Maybe this is connected with plane types that AI fly, but for example AI on Stalingrad map in PWCG is more dangerous than on Kuban or Moscow map.

 

PWCG is coded such that the VVS by default improves and the Luftwaffe by default degrades.  So the AI Russian pilots will be better in Kuban than Moscow.  I say by default because once they are released into the PWCG world pilots improve or not on their own, but their starting point is higher (for VVS) or lower (Luftwaffe) as the war goes on.

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2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

 

PWCG is coded such that the VVS by default improves and the Luftwaffe by default degrades.  So the AI Russian pilots will be better in Kuban than Moscow.  I say by default because once they are released into the PWCG world pilots improve or not on their own, but their starting point is higher (for VVS) or lower (Luftwaffe) as the war goes on.

Just to be clear, are you saying the AI in PWCG is scaled to improve/ decline over the timeline of maps, perhaps by the skill setting used in the missions or are you saying the raw AI in the game are hard coded that way?

I'm trying to grasp how AI can somehow be better in custom made missions comared to the basic quick missions provided by the game's team? 

I see way points meantioned a lot above, but thinking about it, this would be easy to establish by loading a quick mission into the mission editor and seeing how the AI are configured?

It's been a while since going in there, but maybe tempted out of curiousity. 

 

One thing I will add is that AI still fall into the endless loop of horizontal tail chase when on their six. In comparison with AI in another sim begining with 'D' where the Axis AI default to more challenging B & Z vertical loop.

  

Edited by Nake350
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9 minutes ago, Nake350 said:

Just to be clear, are you saying the AI in PWCG is scaled to improve/ decline over the timeline of maps, perhaps by the skill setting used in the missions or are you saying the raw AI in the game are hard coded that way?

I'm trying to grasp how AI can somehow be better in custom made missions comared to the basic quick missions provided by the game's team? 

I see way points meantioned a lot above, but thinking about it, this would be easy to establish by loading a quick mission into the mission editor and seeing how the AI are configured?

It's been a while since going in there, but maybe tempted out of curiousity. 

 

One thing I will add is that AI still fall into the endless loop of horizontal tail chase when on their six. In comparison with AI in another sim begining with 'D' where the Axis AI default to more challenging B & Z vertical loop.

  

 

There are four skill levels in the game: novice, average, veteran, and ace. 

 

There are three waypoint priorities that impact AI aggressiveness.

High: AI will ignore you and pretty much let you blow him out of the air ... but he's flying to that waypoint dammit!.

Medium: AI would prefer to fly tot he waypoint but will respond to you if you get aggressive.

Low: AI really doesn't care about the waypoint and would prefer to kill you.

 

Actual AI response is a combination of priority, skill level, and situation.

 

Every pilot in the PWCG universe is individually created and tracked.  AI pilots can experience events in the mission with the player or outside of the mission through simulation.  Based on victories scored and missions flown an AI pilot will improve over time.  If an AI pilot is lost he is replaced with a raw recruit, making it worth your while to not only take care of your AI squadron mates but to also let them have a kill every once in awhile.  So depending on who you are flying with, when in the war, and how the campaign plays out AI pilots may be better or worse.

 

PWCG ensures that fighter missions are all low waypoints.  This ensures that fighters will behave aggressively.  However, you could get fighters not being very aggressive if they are returning from a ground attack mission.

 

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Awesome explanation @PatrickAWlson 🙂

 

I'll give PWCG a go and see how it goes!... I gather that is your handywork?

 

I seem to have a problem with Java.. The app says I need it but PC says I have it? 😕

Capture.JPG

Capture2.JPG

Edited by Nake350
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I think it is an issue in QMB, I brought this up in the Bugs/AI section but no one has responded, essentially saying the same thing.

 

But I half think its QMB related, I played a scripted campaign and came across some MiGs, within seconds I has a flaming fireball.

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I didn't get too far with PWGC, as I got stuck creating a single mission on the configuration screen as I made choices, but couldn't find a way to generate the mission.

 

Anyway, for expediency I used the full mission editor and put myself in an air start with a single BF109 over Bodenplatte without any way points at all.

 

The enemy was set to high skill level and pretty much the same thing happend. I let him get on my six and it just followed nicely without trying to catch up. 

 

In the end, I slowed right down until it opened fire around 400m behind and I was shot down. I did record it for future reference if needed.

 

I found the 110 G2 better, but maily due to their gunners.

 

 

  

Edited by Nake350
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I can also confirm that with career based missions, the AI overall has improved quite a bit (I mostly play on medium difficulty).

 

The only exception I noticed is that once the enemy flight is getting inferior in numbers, they are getting much more defensive, which to me makes sense. But when they are superior in numbers (which is the case at the beginning of most encounters), they often really go for it.  

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3 hours ago, Nake350 said:

I didn't get too far with PWGC, as I got stuck creating a single mission on the configuration screen as I made choices, but couldn't find a way to generate the mission.

 

 

@Nake350 - If you got that far, the mission was/is likely waiting for you under the Mission menu of BoX.  After creating the mission, Alt-Tab from PWCG to the Game and once you go into Missions, you should find the mission that PWCG generated reflecting your PWCG campaign name. 

 

Once you complete the mission, you Alt-Tab back to PWCG to go through the "Combat Report" sequence.  It sounds more complicated than it is...and, for me at least, it is well work the few extra keystrokes.  Pat has some good tutorial videos here:

and step by step including turning on mission logs here:

 

P.S. My AI Squadron Commander, Maj List, disagrees with you about him missing opportunities to take a shot (from my PWCG AAR tonight):

 

image.thumb.png.2ef24f092157c929372646f97014c02d.png

Edited by Varibraun
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23 hours ago, Nake350 said:

I'm sure they've been a lot more aggressive than this before?

 

Is the video from 2014 or 2015 just saying because this Ai behaviour is the same as five/six years before. Can't find the stuka video where the player plays as Gunner and a lot LaGG-3 attack him but don't shoot at him just come very close around 300m away from him but then break the attack without to shoot. And this behavior repeat and repeat forever. Seeing this old behavior again in 2020 - two step backward to take one step forward - LoL

 

The BoX Ai was better before? - maybe good as in DCS but not as in IL-2 1946.

 

 

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@Livai Yes it was just this week.

 

I've also tried several trials with the mission editor, so no other distractions for the enemy, but same result.

 

I think I'll stick to MP opponents for any excitment. 

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21 hours ago, Retrofly said:

I think it is an issue in QMB, I brought this up in the Bugs/AI section but no one has responded, essentially saying the same thing.

 

 

Even Ace in qmb is tragic when attacking you.

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