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Game version 4.005 discussion: New airframe damage model

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I agree.  Some of my favorite kills happen when I get a good volley on the plane and it appears that it didn't do anything.  10 seconds later and the enemy plane has obviously "given up on life" and takes it's lazy time into the ground.  

 

This!

 

I really enjoy the new damage model for what you described right there. Before the update many kills were results of losing a wing or at least parts of it. Often the outcome was kind of predictable even before the attack was over. You pulled the trigger, you saw the impacts on the enemy's wing, you knew it would come off any second. This has changed.

 

On my last SP sortie I was flying in a FW-190 A8, when encountering two Spitfire Mk. IX. I started my attack on one of them and was able to give him a full broadside with my cannons and MGs from slightly above, hitting both wings and fuselage. For a moment (I don't think it lasted longer than one or two seconds, but it felt very, very long) it looked like my attack had zero effect on him and in my mind I was like "No way he could survive THAT!". But a blink of an eye later the Spitfire started to briefly lift up, before entering a stall, spiraling down to the ground for good.

 

I can't exactly tell why, but it felt incredibly rewarding. Much more than broken off wing, take nth.

Edited by Fritz_X
Typos, my bad!
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Since last update I shot down some hundreds of Spit IXs, in SP and MP combined. Use only 151/20. Did not manage even single time to set it on fire or dewing. They always went down same way, spinning and trailing light smoke.😀 

Other planes are burning and loosing wings quite regularly.

Has anybody seen Spit IX on fire/loosing wings due to 20 mm?

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2 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

10 seconds later and the enemy plane has obviously "given up on life" 

 

It's these damn millennial airplanes, giving up too easily. In my day we fought until wing off and liked it!

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7 hours ago, 69th_Mobile_BBQ said:

 

I agree.  Some of my favorite kills happen when I get a good volley on the plane and it appears that it didn't do anything.  10 seconds later and the enemy plane has obviously "given up on life" and takes it's lazy time into the ground.  

 

Doesn't happen so much in MP because everybody who thinks they can get a kill by scraping the last bit of meat off of the carcass will swoop in and justify it as "their" kill if the stats pages say so.  

 

I think everybody has run down an enemy and beat them up, just for somebody else to grab it when it's easy pickings.  Hell, some of the top stats guys OWE their high place entirely to those who actually put in the work.  Michelangelo painted it. Joe Nobody came along right as he was finishing and signed it.  

 

If you're talking about campaign mode, if you return a plane so badly damaged it's a "write off", then you lose it.   If the enemy does the same, how would you realistically know?  It's not like the desk flyers back at the enemy airbase are going to radio the results to the desk flyers at your home base, after all.  

 

Sigh...you did not get what I was saying...or pointing out...

 

My FRIENDLY AI teammates do not get written off even if they land on some other FRIENDLY base. Why is it only on us/player that gets written off even if we land manage to SAFELY bring back to the friendly base.

 

In real life...pilots did manage to land at friendly base that's not their own home squadron base back in WW2 and the aircraft is recovered if its still can be repaired and returned to flyable condition. Its not like we are landing at an enemy airfield. So what do you think happens to the planes that limp back home somewhere near to ANOTHER friendly airbase and safely land. Is that plane written off or listed as crashed if we did NOT land in the correct airbase where our squadron is based?

 

But if my airbase is near and I bring back the badly damaged plane and land at my home base. Then the airplane is NOT listed as crashed or written off. But if its another FRIENDLY AIRBASE then it is...make no sense whatsoever even if I land safely.

 

 

I was checking the damage effectiveness by having other camera view modes enabled, and I can see PERFECTLY that even with Dark and white smoke the enemy has managed to limp back home and land safely or some nearby enemy airfield. Sometimes they even follow me even with so much damages to the point of having dark and white smoke coming out...

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12 hours ago, jojy47jojyrocks said:

Sometimes they even follow me even with so much damages to the point of having dark and white smoke coming out...

 

Yep, once AI decided that it's got to be you, then it's got to be you and no one else.

 

Let me add that on our online server we've seen an increasing number of "stalking" AI planes.

That is, AI planes fly across half of russia just to get you.

Note that I'm not referring to following you across half of russia - that goes without saying.

No, they even spot you at several hundred miles distance, and then decide to chase you down whatever it takes.

This seems to affect mostly player planes or even player planes only, I have yet to witness AI stalking AI across the map.

 

I've got a theory why this happens.

Some time ago another fellow member of this forum reported that on track recordings he saw AAA tracers in the Tacview playback even though the recording player was nowhere near (read: By far not in visual distance) of the AAA battery, which means the AAA activity happened outside of the "visibility bubble" and was therefore not supposed to be part of the track recording at all. Yet it was, constantly.

My theory is that AI planes might always see AAA tracers wherever they are, and always treat them equally important regardless the distance.

Now if you as a player attack something, for instance ground targets, and trigger some AAA activity by doing so, and if there's no other "more important" stuff going on from enemy AI planes' point of view, then you are the one getting all their attention, regardless where you are.

And once they start focusing on you, it's got to be you (see above).

 

I've personally witnessed this last week on a mission I've written myself, so I know what's supposed to happen where and why.

I've been attacking tanks/cars in an area which is easily 50-60 miles north of an enemy airbase where AI planes take off "randomly" with orders to fly east to enter a "combat zone" there.

There were AAA equipped halftracks among the attacked ground targets and of course the woke up when I was attacking them.

I've been out of sight for any other plane.

There's been no other plane on the map either (the server uses "normal" difficulty settings so you can see others on the map once they are "visible" for whatever reason).

I felt alone up there, until I suddenly spotted an AI fighter running straight north towards me.

I decided to run home, and on my way back, I saw more and more AI fighters coming up behind me.

After a couple of minutes, I've had all enemy AI fighter on my tail. Literally all that were in the air at that time (5 in total) - they all decided to chase me home eastbound all across the map, even though I've been a hundred miles off their designated waypoints meanwhile and even though they never saw me when they decided to chase me.

 

:drinks:

Mike

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@SAS_Storebror I have seen that behavior as well in the normal sp campaign. I assumed it was because those enemy fighters where given an intercept order. They are not focused on the player though but on your flight. When I noticed it I was flying a Ju88 campaign. I eventually got damaged and had to bail. Hanging in my chute I noticed that fighters where continuing to attack the bomber flight. If it was just you, the player, they where after then the enemy fighters would have broken off.

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49 minutes ago, SAS_Storebror said:

 

Yep, once AI decided that it's got to be you, then it's got to be you and no one else.

 

Let me add that on our online server we've seen an increasing number of "stalking" AI planes.

That is, AI planes fly across half of russia just to get you.

Note that I'm not referring to following you across half of russia - that goes without saying.

No, they even spot you at several hundred miles distance, and then decide to chase you down whatever it takes.

This seems to affect mostly player planes or even player planes only, I have yet to witness AI stalking AI across the map.

 

I've got a theory why this happens.

Some time ago another fellow member of this forum reported that on track recordings he saw AAA tracers in the Tacview playback even though the recording player was nowhere near (read: By far not in visual distance) of the AAA battery, which means the AAA activity happened outside of the "visibility bubble" and was therefore not supposed to be part of the track recording at all. Yet it was, constantly.

My theory is that AI planes might always see AAA tracers wherever they are, and always treat them equally important regardless the distance.

Now if you as a player attack something, for instance ground targets, and trigger some AAA activity by doing so, and if there's no other "more important" stuff going on from enemy AI planes' point of view, then you are the one getting all their attention, regardless where you are.

And once they start focusing on you, it's got to be you (see above).

 

I've personally witnessed this last week on a mission I've written myself, so I know what's supposed to happen where and why.

I've been attacking tanks/cars in an area which is easily 50-60 miles north of an enemy airbase where AI planes take off "randomly" with orders to fly east to enter a "combat zone" there.

There were AAA equipped halftracks among the attacked ground targets and of course the woke up when I was attacking them.

I've been out of sight for any other plane.

There's been no other plane on the map either (the server uses "normal" difficulty settings so you can see others on the map once they are "visible" for whatever reason).

I felt alone up there, until I suddenly spotted an AI fighter running straight north towards me.

I decided to run home, and on my way back, I saw more and more AI fighters coming up behind me.

After a couple of minutes, I've had all enemy AI fighter on my tail. Literally all that were in the air at that time (5 in total) - they all decided to chase me home eastbound all across the map, even though I've been a hundred miles off their designated waypoints meanwhile and even though they never saw me when they decided to chase me.

 

:drinks:

Mike

 

I mostly play SP. Not MP.

 

What I meant to say was...even when the enemy is badly damaged to the point of running on darkish gray smoke plus the white smoke (signifying fuel leak and or oil coolant, radiator leak etc). They still try to follow me or other friendly planes around ...sometimes like they have not even had damage, following efficiently. Instead of heading home. I was hoping they'd crash from overheating or running out of fuel.

 

I am trying to say...even if the damage model is improved...there are sometimes some inconsistencies on the damage effects.

 

It takes a hell load of ammo to bring down an IL2. But as the player... Most times I get shot down by very small number hits of MG34 AAA fire and crash easily. While it take me around several to take down an Il2 from behind.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/30/2020 at 12:24 AM, Raven109 said:

 

https://vimeo.com/user42952153/

 

@Voidhunger, are these the videos you're trying to link?

 

 

 

That is a ton of Mk108 hits on that airframe. Quick question - what was the belt loadout for the MK108? Did they use just all HE and HE/tracer or did they put other types into the belts of the Bf109 machines?

Edited by Bilbo_Baggins

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Bilbo_Baggins said:

Quick question - what was the belt loadout for the MK108? Did they use just all HE and HE/tracer or did they put other types into the belts of the Bf109 machines?

M Geschosspatrone Gl´spur/Brandgranatpatrone L´spur in 44, in 43 only M Geschosspatrone

Edited by L3Pl4K
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7 minutes ago, L3Pl4K said:

M Geschosspatrone Gl´spur/Brandgranatpatrone L´spur in 44, in 43 only M Geschosspatrone

 

Cheers for that info L3PI4K,

 

Rough translation for those not familiar with technical German.. which is probably most of us haha .. the mine shells refer to the specially developed thin walled, heavily filled HE mine shells (using nitropenta PETN core) the Germans used. There are other types however.

 

Specifically:

 

- In 1943 just the Standard HE Mine shell (no tracer).

- Then in 1944, the HE Mine shell using GI' special tracer (believe for Nightfighters) and Incendiary shell using L' (leuchtspur) standard tracer were added for 1944.

 

Hope that helps.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2020 at 7:39 PM, Valkyrie77 said:

.50 calls ineffective, 

bombs ineffective 

allied aircraft unflyable after sustaining little  damage. 
Luftwaffe aircraft soaking up tremendous damage and still flying and fighting. 
110 over performing 

47 underperforming 

some .50 cal rounds going through objects without damaging it. 

 

This is all multiplayer from that list i would of thought .  . Like i said some strange things happening in multiplayer .

P51 guns now set to 200m and i got hits on D9 and he went down with two passes . Now im sticking with 200m  and 700m centre line this works for me . Give it a try P51 jocks .

Anyway back to Axis see you in the online servers . 

IMHO the net coding needs updating and a anti-cheat system .

This will stop the negative feed back i would think .

The DM update is a great patch needs a bit of  fine tuning.

 

 

On 4/27/2020 at 7:45 PM, Voidhunger said:

More than 12 MK108 rounds to the left wing of mustang and the wing still holds together. (and it didnt break even when she was spinning to the ground)

The whole mustang is more sturdy than B25.

After this recent patch I was unable to shot off wing from the mustang yet and 12 rounds its too much imho.

 

 

 

 

 

P51wings1.jpg

P51wings2.jpg

I think The P-51 is very fragile in the elevator and rudder section with complete loss , after very little hits  must bail . Have not yet made it back home with damage.

Yet to test Axis . 190 and 109 . ect .  

Edited by ACG_KoN

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11 hours ago, jojy47jojyrocks said:

 

I mostly play SP. Not MP.

 

What I meant to say was...even when the enemy is badly damaged to the point of running on darkish gray smoke plus the white smoke (signifying fuel leak and or oil coolant, radiator leak etc). They still try to follow me or other friendly planes around ...sometimes like they have not even had damage, following efficiently. Instead of heading home. I was hoping they'd crash from overheating or running out of fuel.

I like this discussion, because it focuses on sp user feedback. Sp career is very dofferent from playing mp, so maybe it can catch some more dev attention.

 

I also see the inconsistency from AI vs. user flown planes damage taken. In mp seems that medium damage makes the plane barely flyable, without some hollywoodish losewingeffects, which is good. The AI however, flies aggressively even with damage that visually is very heavy - big holes in wings, fuselage or many leaks - and so often the player must focus on one aircraft for a few minutes until it goes down.

 

I would think that huge drag / lift force penalty is a good thing from gameplay standpoint. In theory it makes it so that at least the medium damaged airplane fixes both issues - since none of the two (human or AI) piloting it are able to pull aggressive maneuvers anymore, but it doesn`t work like that (yet). You / AI should be able to nurse tha airplane home in some cases, but attacking anyone is completely out of the question.

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Posted (edited)

For most of the P-51 complaints.

The P-51's rudder and elevators were fabric covered, at least up until February of '45 when they were swapped in favor of metal. I find it pretty unsurprising that one 30mm shell would have the concussive force to peel that fabric off a control surface. 

Edited by QB.Shallot
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11 hours ago, Mac_Messer said:

I like this discussion, because it focuses on sp user feedback. Sp career is very dofferent from playing mp, so maybe it can catch some more dev attention.

 

I also see the inconsistency from AI vs. user flown planes damage taken. In mp seems that medium damage makes the plane barely flyable, without some hollywoodish losewingeffects, which is good. The AI however, flies aggressively even with damage that visually is very heavy - big holes in wings, fuselage or many leaks - and so often the player must focus on one aircraft for a few minutes until it goes down.

 

I would think that huge drag / lift force penalty is a good thing from gameplay standpoint. In theory it makes it so that at least the medium damaged airplane fixes both issues - since none of the two (human or AI) piloting it are able to pull aggressive maneuvers anymore, but it doesn`t work like that (yet). You / AI should be able to nurse tha airplane home in some cases, but attacking anyone is completely out of the question.

 

 

I pretty much majority of the time play SP career campaign, and most of the time the new damage model seems OK...but its effects are not much from a pure AI damage standpoint. Its inconsistent for SP intensive players like us. The AI enemy even when damaged holds for dear life and even chase after me or some other friendly AI. Sometimes even when they are damaged to the point of having darkish grey plus white smoke. How they manage to follow me in power with probable engine related damage (I mean, that's mostly how darkish grey smoke appears, right?) is a big mystery.

 

No idea why the enemy AI keeps in the fight when they are having damages like fuel leak etc (white smoke) times? Shouldn't they be bugging out home, at least for serious fuel leaks?


With the new damage model ...especially for SP. I was hoping that by making some critical damage on enemy, they'd disengage and bugout home or crash along the way of engine overheating and so on, that I could save my ammo. It take the enemy AI just very short hits to bring us down. But we have to pour in a lot of bullets to bring em down. Pretty difficult to bring IL2 down. I was hoping those hits at the radiator would slow them down or make them disengage from attack from overheating issues, or those landing gears being ruined would force them to do a belly land.

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Fighting AI in QMB with P-47 and P-51 is simply a pain in the ass with the new damage model.

AI keeps fighting no matter how many hits you put into them, they hardly ever disengage.

Also, the M2 does considerably less damage than the UBS and lacks the API ammo, therefore you need an abundance of hits to defeat the enemy planes, making the whole experience intolerable...

 

Edited by airacobrafan

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13 hours ago, airacobrafan said:

Fighting AI in QMB with P-47 and P-51 is simply a pain in the ass with the new damage model.

AI keeps fighting no matter how many hits you put into them, they hardly ever disengage.

Also, the M2 does considerably less damage than the UBS and lacks the API ammo, therefore you need an abundance of hits to defeat the enemy planes, making the whole experience intolerable...

 

 

 

Yes there is clear difference on how the damage is reflected for SP players and AI there than for MP players.

 

 

I guess majority in the forum are multiplayer players than those who play majority in SP...

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Posted (edited)

New DM is really great improvement, there are some things but we can't ask for perfection!

Did anyone tried aerodynamic effects after damage between all-metal birds and russian ones made of wood?

 

Example: metal wing when damaged should have much more drag and disturbed airflow due to bent metal cracks while wood will just crack and fall off producing producing less drag... taking into account damaged area is the same.

 

Edited by EAF_Ribbon

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Posted (edited)

I'm afraid it's impossible to tell about damage-to-drag relation at the moment, because the visual representation of damage doesn't correlate to the damage applied to the flight model by our new DM.

Yesterday I've had a sortie in a Tempest and got hit in my left wing.

Visually quite well damaged, the plane flew "just normal", with a subtle drop of the left wing.

Later on that sortie, another plane jumped my six and sent a burst through the fuselage.

No change to the visual wing damage, just a couple of bullet holes in the fuselage and an oil leak, all control surfaces still "factory fresh" visually, but:

Left wing dropped to an extent that I almost needed full right aileron to keep her in the air, and the whole plane slowed down by some 50 knots and wobbled through the air like a jelly ball.

 

:drinks:

Mike

Edited by SAS_Storebror

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On 5/2/2020 at 7:13 AM, QB.Shallot said:

For most of the P-51 complaints.

The P-51's rudder and elevators were fabric covered, at least up until February of '45 when they were swapped in favor of metal. I find it pretty unsurprising that one 30mm shell would have the concussive force to peel that fabric off a control surface. 

The tail of the bf109k4 is also covered in fabric.I also tested shooting the k4 tail with the mg151 and mk108, and I recommend you try it yourself.
Meanwhile, the P51 and 109k4 aren't the only ones in the game that elevators are covered in fabric,and I think u know what I am going to say next.
The P51 is the only plane I've ever tested in SP and flied in MP where the nose immediately depresses after a bullet in the tail, and the pilot doesn't even have a chance to bail out. I have to say that The P51D must be dismayed by the unique treatment.

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@=ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34 Thats fair, I'll give it a swing myself when I can. I will say that the mustang is treated to more than one odd issue. Take a look at the landing gear fairings coming off at 515mph. 

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, =ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34 said:

The tail of the bf109k4 is also covered in fabric.I also tested shooting the k4 tail with the mg151 and mk108, and I recommend you try it yourself.
Meanwhile, the P51 and 109k4 aren't the only ones in the game that elevators are covered in fabric,and I think u know what I am going to say next.
The P51 is the only plane I've ever tested in SP and flied in MP where the nose immediately depresses after a bullet in the tail, and the pilot doesn't even have a chance to bail out. I have to say that The P51D must be dismayed by the unique treatment.

 

@=ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34

 

Shot tail up quite a bit yesterday on K-4's and realise the tailplane itself is too strong but it still has a significant effect on control even for AI (please note: the Dev's are fixing the Bf109  tailplane issue as they stated in earlier Dev. blog / notes!).. from experience - I know it will become uncontrollable if a player is shot up in the tail - regardless of how it is visually shown. Again the Dev team has made it clear the damage decals need work so don't rely on them either to visually inspect.

 

How many examples is this based on? we all know the AI can compensate in a way a human can't.. for example even a single cannon shell should do a lot of control damage if it hits the right spot in the tail, one low caliber bullet would be unlikely to have much effect unless it has HE filler or there's a lot of concentrated fire. Are you certain it was only one single bullet?

 

Just to add some background, in real life the P-51 tail has a.. controversial history - a warbird pilot I met (ex-Sq Leader Dave Southwood) was nearly killed in one during a dive (370mph~) and found two screws holding the tailplane together when he landed after the aircraft had been porpoising. There were no bullets (obviously) in the tailplane and the aircraft was well maintained.

 

If you check the history, a number of issues occurred in the P-51's operation and specifically the tailplane which had to be modified - including adding an extra forward section to the tail to deal with... excessive loading, compressibility and other issues. The actual cross section of the tail is extremely thin and has little strength coming from its shape (just like with the wings) in order to reduce drag but this also makes it fragile if hit by gunfire.. especially anything with HE.

 

The Bf 109 had a similar story, earlier in 1941 - the Luftwaffe lost a string of pilots due to tail failures in the F model due to improved performance and increased flight loads but also due to removal of tail struts from the E model (aerodynamic reasons) and later had to reinforce and upgrade the tailplane; when later variants came... an effort was made to check the tail structure could cope through testing - for both loads and also a factor considered for potential combat damage.

 

I know this is an excessive example.. but this is what a damaged P-51 tail does in real life, note the Skyraider lost half a wing and landed. Case in point - the tail is a very fragile element of the P-51 design compared to its quite robust fuselage

 

 

Edited by Aurora_Stealth
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Aurora_Stealth said:

 

@=ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34

 

Shot tail up quite a bit yesterday on K-4's and realise the tailplane itself is too strong but it still has a significant effect on control even for AI (please note: the Dev's are fixing the Bf109  tailplane issue as they stated in earlier Dev. blog / notes!).. from experience - I know it will become uncontrollable if a player is shot up in the tail - regardless of how it is visually shown. Again the Dev team has made it clear the damage decals need work so don't rely on them either to visually inspect.

 

How many examples is this based on? we all know the AI can compensate in a way a human can't.. for example even a single cannon shell should do a lot of control damage if it hits the right spot in the tail, one low caliber bullet would be unlikely to have much effect unless it has HE filler or there's a lot of concentrated fire. Are you certain it was only one single bullet?

 

Just to add some background, in real life the P-51 tail has a.. controversial history - a warbird pilot I met (ex-Sq Leader Dave Southwood) was nearly killed in one during a dive (370mph~) and found two screws holding the tailplane together when he landed after the aircraft had been porpoising. There were no bullets (obviously) in the tailplane and the aircraft was well maintained.

 

If you check the history, a number of issues occurred in the P-51's operation and specifically the tailplane which had to be modified - including adding an extra forward section to the tail to deal with... excessive loading, compressibility and other issues. The actual cross section of the tail is extremely thin and has little strength coming from its shape (just like with the wings) in order to reduce drag but this also makes it fragile if hit by gunfire.. especially anything with HE.

 

The Bf 109 had a similar story, earlier in 1941 - the Luftwaffe lost a string of pilots due to tail failures in the F model due to improved performance and increased flight loads but also due to removal of tail struts from the E model (aerodynamic reasons) and later had to reinforce and upgrade the tailplane; when later variants came... an effort was made to check the tail structure could cope through testing - for both loads and also a factor considered for potential combat damage.

 

I know this is an excessive example.. but this is what a damaged P-51 tail does in real life, note the Skyraider lost half a wing and landed. Case in point - the tail is a very fragile element of the P-51 design compared to its quite robust fuselage

 

 

Thank you very much for your reply to my post. I am really honored.
First, I believe that the elevator is the weak link of P51, but is the problem so serious that the pilot doesn't even get a chance to bail out?I'm sorry that I don't have a clear statistics, and one shell is indeed a bit of an exaggeration. But please believe that the cases I described in which the nose of the plane immediately depresses to help the pilot become unconscious and unable to eject are definitely the majority.Last month's in the combat box server, I was killed four times in P51, three times are all I have described this kind of situation,and I've seen a lot of P51 pilots die this way .That's what I'm most confused about. Also as you metioned, Mr.Dave Southwood survived in such a case.

 

Finally I really appreciate what you have done for the new DM,a great update.But maybe the mg151 is a little too powerful?I was surprised to see that my Fw190A3 shot down six reds in a single sortie, and the hit rate was 8.5 percent. The 151 is so efficient at destroying the aerodynamics and pilot snipe that I now drive the bf109G14 without replacing the MG151 with MK108.At the same time, the challenge of piloting a Soviet aircraft in a multiplayer game has risen dramatically, and I'm sure you've seen a number of complaints about it that I won't dwell.I understand that as a flight simulator,it's very difficult to balance simulacra and  MP balance,but the multiplayer part really adds a lot of appeal to the game.Please forgive me for my unkind request,but I do think the game is a little unbalanced.

 


 

 

Edited by =ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34
missing words
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58 minutes ago, =ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34 said:

Thank you very much for your reply to my post. I am really honored.
First, I believe that the elevator is the weak link of P51, but is the problem so serious that the pilot doesn't even get a chance to bail out?I'm sorry that I don't have a clear statistics, and one shell is indeed a bit of an exaggeration. But please believe that the cases I described in which the nose of the plane immediately depresses to help the pilot become unconscious and unable to eject are definitely the majority.Last month's in the combat box server, I was killed four times in P51, three times are all I have described this kind of situation,and I've seen a lot of P51 pilots die this way .That's what I'm most confused about. Also as you metioned, Mr.Dave Southwood survived in such a case.

 

Finally I really appreciate what you have done for the new DM,a great update.But maybe the mg151 is a little too powerful?I was surprised to see that my Fw190A3 shot down six reds in a single sortie, and the hit rate was 8.5 percent. The 151 is so efficient at destroying the aerodynamics and pilot snipe that I now drive the bf109G14 without replacing the MG151 with MK108.At the same time, the challenge of piloting a Soviet aircraft in a multiplayer game has risen dramatically, and I'm sure you've seen a number of complaints about it that I won't dwell.I understand that as a flight simulator,it's very difficult to balance simulacra and  MP balance,but the multiplayer part really adds a lot of appeal to the game.Please forgive me for my unkind request,but I do think the game is a little unbalanced.

 


 

 

new month on wol and out of 16 win axis have, 14 are made by shot down airplanes, trend just continues since DM update was made available, before it was rear ocasion for missions to end that way now its new normal. VVS players forghot how to aim sudenly 😄

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The momentum is clearly in favour of Axis at the moment.

Question remains whether what we just witness is simply historically accurate or not, cause that's what will dictate whether it'll stay as is or whether we'll get some powers back to allied planes.

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Posted (edited)

@=ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34

 

No worries, just trying to help.. I'm no developer so I can't take any credit there.. although I've been playing the IL2 series for quite a few years although only recently been on the forum.

 

From what I've seen, elevator control loss remains present on the Bf 109.. so rest assured about that.. funnily enough last time I experienced control loss happened to me a day or so ago and I didn't get to bail out in time either (speed and G-forces worked against me so I couldn't open the canopy) due to my existing downwards turn I accelerated down. It was at around 700 - 800m height that I was hit.

 

It depends on your altitude and speed, if you're already going quick (+350mph) and also if you're pretty low - then yes you might not get out if you can't stabilise the aircraft due to the forces holding the canopy back against the pilot. I can't comment much about the blacking out, but it sounds like an explosive shell causing an aerodynamic stall to the aircraft.

 

It can sometimes take several thousand feet to recover or even stabilise the Mustang when stalled out normally so any kind of control loss is very difficult to handle - especially if you are already in a maneuver as the aircraft is off balance aerodynamically. If you're flying at very low altitude (< 1km) then simple answer is yes it is catastrophic especially with the P-51.. as the "approximate" laminar flow characteristics are unforgiving. Try and keep a reasonable cushion of height when online (3 km is a good guideline) .. it pays off when things go wrong.

 

If it happens again and the aircraft starts to accelerate into a dive like this, then my advice is take the power off, get your flaps down and if you're still accelerating quickly even drop the gear to add drag so you can try and slow down and bail. Without details (videos are often best) its hard to know what's going on in your situations. Also people forget the downside of bubble canopies is while they afford great visibility they also expose the pilot greatly to gunfire.

 

The parallels with reality are there - the Fw 190 is named the "Butcher bird" for good reason - it made short work of the RAF (RAF losses for 1941 -1942 were est. something like 5000 a/c to 450 Luftwaffe) .. the MG 151 in combination with its HE ammunition was considered the most effective fighter vs fighter weapon employed - period. The MK 108 has a much lower ammo count and lower muzzle velocity (speed to target) requiring more effort to get close in with a maneuvering aircraft so I'm not entirely surprised.. but that is a high kill count. You can also spray a lot with the Fw 190 due to the abundance of ammo and its very strong at low altitudes and can take a beating too.

 

Regarding the VVS / Soviet aircraft.. (I'm generalising here so I do apologise) the problem is they're often constructed as composite structures with wood, often have a bubble canopy and pilots who fly them tend to prefer engaging in very low altitude dog-fighting which exposes them to being bounced - they also tend to have a lower ammo count with regards to the cannons and less effective HE shells. Its not a great combination for survivability, but please provide pics or even better videos that can put the light on what's happening. I would caution and say.. VVS attrition in their air force was absolutely appalling and it seems this is playing out.. but I'd never dismiss these concerns until I'd seen myself what's going on. If these are the quick dogfight servers you're also mentioning.. then this is totally plausible as it will exaggerate these disparities.

 

The upcoming addition of the Yak 9 may help to offset some of this for the VVS side as there's no late war ('44 - 45) Soviet aircraft yet, due to the focus on Bodenplatte. The Yak 9 is predominantly built with Duralumin (aluminium) so could be a more robust fighter to use.

Edited by Aurora_Stealth
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I feel like if the single shvak cannon struggled against fighters in reality as much as it does in game then they wouldn't have stuck with having just one in the nose in the Yak-9 and Yak-3 til the end of the war, and we're not even talking about bombers.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, =621=Samikatz said:

I feel like if the single shvak cannon struggled against fighters in reality as much as it does in game then they wouldn't have stuck with having just one in the nose in the Yak-9 and Yak-3 til the end of the war, and we're not even talking about bombers.

 

Yes, it's why La-7 pilots said in late 1944 that even 2 ShVAK cannons were insufficient to deal with Fw 190s and as a result the La-7 was modified to take 3 20 mm B-20 cannons.

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1 minute ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, it's why La-7 pilots said in late 1944 that even 2 ShVAK cannons were insufficient to deal with Fw 190s and as a result the La-7 was modified to take 3 20 mm B-20 cannons.

Makes sense, by that point they wouldn’t have been needing the extra firepower for bombers or larger aircraft that were getting pretty thin in the air.

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2020 at 3:39 PM, Valkyrie77 said:

.50 calls ineffective, 

bombs ineffective 

allied aircraft unflyable after sustaining little  damage. 
Luftwaffe aircraft soaking up tremendous damage and still flying and fighting. 
110 over performing 

47 underperforming 

some .50 cal rounds going through objects without damaging it. 

 


You missed a few (strictly for MP which is what i use this game for)

. Invisible planes
. Horrible visibility; spotting contacts is a nightmare
. Custom skins when a winter map is chosen (still summer skins)
. VVS planes able to open cockpit at 7k, 8k and pilot not freezing
. Broken gunners, performing like chuck norris

. Exagerated G effects 
. etc FMs (ie 109E7 going Zeke mode ON turning performance, out turns anything in game)
. etc (FMs after planes like 109s take damage and still put up a fight)
. a big list of etc that make this sim more arcade lately

 

1 hour ago, LukeFF said:

 

Yes, it's why La-7 pilots said in late 1944 that even 2 ShVAK cannons were insufficient to deal with Fw 190s and as a result the La-7 was modified to take 3 20 mm B-20 cannons.

LOL

And here is devs interpretation of that...43 hits from 20mm HE ShVAK to down a single FW190

https://combatbox.net/es/sortie/584252/?tour=22
https://combatbox.net/es/sortie/log/584252/?tour=22


PS. wanna see the track from that 190 shot down Luke? It's even more telling, now that silly G effects are applied, planes in order to avoid being hit  go stick jerking more than before, they look like butterflies, nothing like this can be seen in any guncam footage from real WW2 😉

9 hours ago, =ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34 said:

Finally I really appreciate what you have done for the new DM,a great update.But maybe the mg151 is a little too powerful?I was surprised to see that my Fw190A3 shot down six reds in a single sortie, and the hit rate was 8.5 percent. The 151 is so efficient at destroying the aerodynamics and pilot snipe that I now drive the bf109G14 without replacing the MG151 with MK108.At the same time, the challenge of piloting a Soviet aircraft in a multiplayer game has risen dramatically, and I'm sure you've seen a number of complaints about it that I won't dwell.I understand that as a flight simulator,it's very difficult to balance simulacra and  MP balance,but the multiplayer part really adds a lot of appeal to the game.Please forgive me for my unkind request,but I do think the game is a little unbalanced.


Thanks man; 100% spot on.


 

Edited by 666GIAP_Chimango
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7 hours ago, 666GIAP_Chimango said:


. VVS planes able to open cockpit at 7k, 8k and pilot not freezing
 

The canopy is more for aerodynamics rather then protection from the elements.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, =ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34 said:

but is the problem so serious that the pilot doesn't even get a chance to bail out?

 

 

There are actually three factors in the game that cause the prevention of bailout for all planes.

 

1. If air speed is at 400 kph or above.

 

2. If the pilot is seriously injured aka dark screen. Crew can not bail out either in this case.

 

3. Negative G forces do not throw out a pilot from the plane. Spinning or flying upside down will not eject the pilot even if the ejection button is pressed and the canopy is gone.

 

Ultimately three would solve the issues of one and two in a realistic manner. G lock is a real thing and is quite lethal. I hope this answered your question.

 

Also if your pilot is knocked out and the plane goes into a stall spin. Then your pilot wont wake up until about 400 meters above the ground. Basically you wake up just to die, for dramatic effect I assume. Experienced this from 2k and 3k alt multiple times.

Edited by Geronimo553
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48 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

 

3. Negative G forces do not throw out a pilot from the plane. Spinning or flying upside down will not eject the pilot even if the ejection button is pressed and the canopy is gone.

 

 

 

AFAIK this works, sometimes when my pilot would not be able to bail out I turned the plane upside down and fell out. Did not study it in detail though.

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48 minutes ago, Geronimo553 said:

 

There are actually three factors in the game that cause the prevention of bailout for all planes.

 

1. If air speed is at 400 kph or above.

 

2. If the pilot is seriously injured aka dark screen. Crew can not bail out either in this case.

 

3. Negative G forces do not throw out a pilot from the plane. Spinning or flying upside down will not eject the pilot even if the ejection button is pressed and the canopy is gone.

 

Ultimately three would solve the issues of one and two in a realistic manner. G lock is a real thing and is quite lethal. I hope this answered your question.

 

Also if your pilot is knocked out and the plane goes into a stall spin. Then your pilot wont wake up until about 400 meters above the ground. Basically you wake up just to die, for dramatic effect I assume. Experienced this from 2k and 3k alt multiple times.

Well,if u serch my stats on wol and CB server page,u will notice that I really spend a lot of time in the game,and I'm really experienced at bailing out xD.I'm a little bit angry with being continuously misinterpreted as not understanding the mechanics of eject.As a rookie fly both blue and red,I've been shot down almost in every plane on MP servers.THAT'S WHY I SAY P51 get the unique treatment.At the first time,I was shot by a D9 above 14000ft,just 2 explosion on the tail,the plane goes violently in the negative G direction,my pilot was soon in a coma from a brain blood rushed,and never woke up during the long process of going down.This never happens when I was in a Yak,Lavochkin,spitfire,BF109 and Fw190.I never doubted that the P51's weakness was its tail,and ofc I know exactly when I can't bail out.I really hope you can find a friend to test it, and I'm sure you will come to the same conclusion as me。

Thank you

 

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2 hours ago, 216th_Jordan said:

 

AFAIK this works, sometimes when my pilot would not be able to bail out I turned the plane upside down and fell out. Did not study it in detail though.

I think it might too. I have been able to bail out upside down before when wounded. Either I was not wounded seriously enough to prevent, or upside -down ejection works.

Unfortunately, I was at low altitude at that point so I managed to jump myself right into a tree.

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1 hour ago, =ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34 said:

Well,if u serch my stats on wol and CB server page,u will notice that I really spend a lot of time in the game,and I'm really experienced at bailing out xD.I'm a little bit angry with being continuously misinterpreted as not understanding the mechanics of eject.As a rookie fly both blue and red,I've been shot down almost in every plane on MP servers.THAT'S WHY I SAY P51 get the unique treatment.At the first time,I was shot by a D9 above 14000ft,just 2 explosion on the tail,the plane goes violently in the negative G direction,my pilot was soon in a coma from a brain blood rushed,and never woke up during the long process of going down.This never happens when I was in a Yak,Lavochkin,spitfire,BF109 and Fw190.I never doubted that the P51's weakness was its tail,and ofc I know exactly when I can't bail out.I really hope you can find a friend to test it, and I'm sure you will come to the same conclusion as me。

Thank you

 

 

@=ILS=_AirC0mbatN00b_34

 

Perhaps someone (or yourself) can video and scientifically show this like the guys did with the Flying Circus wing failure issue along with some context (i.e. game settings, PC setup) so it can be seen what's going on. That's the best way to authenticate this claim. There are still inconsistencies and issues with the new DM (like with any new system).

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Hi all, any news of the devs addressing the ridiculously unrealistic Pilot  black out Physics in the game? 

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Just now, Valkyrie77 said:

Hi all, any news of the devs addressing the ridiculously unrealistic Pilot  black out Physics in the game? 



It's odd that when you could pull 12g turns at will for about, oh, the duration of your whole flight pre physiology update, no one was complaining. Now it suddenly becomes 'ridiculously unrealistic'.

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3 minutes ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Hi all, any news of the devs addressing the ridiculously unrealistic Pilot  black out Physics in the game? 

Hi Valkyrie, it sounds to me like you hate every aspect of this product because you keep broadcasting to the forum just how terrible it all is. I'm not sure if you are a troll or just someone who likes to complain? I think I could take you more seriously if you actually did some bug reports and based your complaints on some sort of reference with valid data to check instead of going on "feels". 

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11 minutes ago, Valkyrie77 said:

Hi all, any news of the devs addressing the ridiculously unrealistic Pilot  black out Physics in the game? 

Personally, I think the Devs did a great job on this feature and makes the game way more realistic, which is the point of the exercise.  What specific problem do you have?

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