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Developer Diary 247 - Discussion


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Just now, Han said:
247
Hello everybody,

The weather in Moscow isn't really fitting for April, but these times it doesn't make a big difference; we're continuing the work on the project. The 4.005 beta testing is nearly finished, and soon you'll see by yourself what all the latest DDs were about. So today we'll tell you a bit about the current work that will yield more distant results.

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The first visual bonus that comes from Deferred Shading is the dramatic improvement of the quality of the reflections on various surfaces. While the existing reflection system was progressive for its time, today the standards are upped. For instance, its issues include too much bloom in reflections from various aircraft surfaces, the lack of diffusion of the reflections - they should be softer and more natural-looking. The new tech makes this possible, resulting in more realistic visuals. Here are a couple of screenshots showing this:

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The work on the new pilot models we announced earlier for Battle of Moscow, Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Kuban continues as well.

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To finish today's Dev Blog we want to present you the new work of =HH=Pauk, this time he created the new promo video for Flying Circus. We think the author has managed to the feel of the last knights' epoch perfectly, highlighting the project potential. Enjoy:

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Full news - here is a full text and visual materials

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4 minutes ago, SJ_Butcher said:

Shouldn't deferred shading increase the performance too?

 

Great job by the way, I can't wait until you use DX12 or even better Vulkan

 

Any thoughts how the deferred shading will effect VR performance?

 

Many VR players feel like we are on the 'limit' of non-spacewarp/motion-smoothed performance and have to sacrifice a lot of the sexy visuals in order to get true 80 or 90hz gameplay. Even on 5Ghz 2080GTX level kit.

 

Hope we can get these lovely looking improvements without having to sacrifice any (gold dust) frames to do so.


 

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8 minutes ago, SJ_Butcher said:

Great job by the way, I can't wait until you use DX12 or even better Vulkan

Vulkan would be awesome, but it is not an easy task for a small developer.

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I'm hoping the changes will fix the shimmering clouds effect - it still makes my eyes bleed watching aircraft in front of clouds.

 

Keep it up though as it looks pretty much amazing.

 

von Tom

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One of my favorite DDs in a while! New content is exciting, but core upgrades like the DM and DS are 10x more interesting to me. IL2 is a great sim and this just makes it better! 

  • I'm very excited about the DS tech and new external metallic reflections, it has been at the top of my wishlist for a while. Added bonus for me are the glass on gauges and internal canopy reflections, from the screenshots it looks like a huge step up!
  • Soviet pilot looking fresh, it's nice to bring them up to the level of the rest.
  • Finally, another outstanding trailer by Pauk, really good job! 

Again, great job to Sergey, Petrovich, Jason, and the rest of the team!

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Just now, Asgar said:

just wondering (cause i simply have no idea) does the use of deferred shading mean you also have to use PBR to make full use of it?

 

PBR is possible now, but we'll see what we end up doing.

 

Jason

Just now, flyingfisch said:

Awesome updates! I was curious (and if this isn't the right thread to ask in, let me know), is there a rough estimate for when the official IL-2 skin packs will be released?

 

The support isn't built yet. Later this year I hope, but until then they still work the same without any restrictions. Don't wait for us to enjoy all the great skins out there.

 

Jason

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3 minutes ago, Jason_Williams said:

The support isn't built yet. Later this year I hope, but until then they still work the same without any restrictions. Don't wait for us to enjoy all the great skins out there.

 

Jason

 

Understood! I definitely am enjoying custom skins in the meantime :)

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As it was the superb lighting in ROF that drew me back to flight sims I'm all in favour of any up-dates to the lighting engine and will probably be paying greater attention to this than many!

 

Your business model rarely allows me to directly pay for the changes I want, but if the things I value most keep squeezing in indirectly then all the better!

Edited by HappyHaddock
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56 minutes ago, SJ_Butcher said:

Shouldn't deferred shading increase the performance too?

 

Great job by the way, I can't wait until you use DX12 or even better Vulkan

My understanding is that it allows you to do new things without impacting performance that much. Like the added reflections, that would have been a major performance hit without the new renderer.

Not 100% sure though.

 

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40 minutes ago, von_Tom said:

 

I'm hoping the changes will fix the shimmering clouds effect - it still makes my eyes bleed watching aircraft in front of clouds.

 

Keep it up though as it looks pretty much amazing.

 

von Tom

 

Interested too. Will this help fix the stripey clouds in low setting sun and also the aircraft vanishing in front of them? 

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43 minutes ago, Swing said:

The new promo vidéo for Flying Circus is stunning...!!! 😵

If only the game looked like that....I'm not usually one to complain but I have NEVER seen that much density in game. NML is a quiet dead area with the odd puff here and there and the sky is empty.

 

I dream of finding a situation even half as action packed or object dense as that  excellent made video depicts.

 

Love you devs, I don't complain often but that video highlighted everything I wish FC was but isn't.

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Deferred shading means more light sources and shadows to calculate, however. When DCS implemented it, with elements of PBR, it took a hefty performace hit it never fully recovered from, despite later tweaks and optimisations. "There is no free lunch"  - more eyecandy will require some extra umph to display it. If Jason's guys can choose sensible compromises to keep the fps at comparable level at least (and sounds like they believe they can), then hats off to them! Let's keep the fingers crossed. Natural metal finish on preview shots looks amazing already.

Edited by Art-J
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47 minutes ago, Jade_Monkey said:

One of my favorite DDs in a while! New content is exciting, but core upgrades like the DM and DS are 10x more interesting to me. IL2 is a great sim and this just makes it better! 

  • I'm very excited about the DS tech and new external metallic reflections, it has been at the top of my wishlist for a while. Added bonus for me are the glass on gauges and internal canopy reflections, from the screenshots it looks like a huge step up!
  • Soviet pilot looking fresh, it's nice to bring them up to the level of the rest.
  • Finally, another outstanding trailer by Pauk, really good job! 

Again, great job to Sergey, Petrovich, Jason, and the rest of the team!

+1 :popcorm:

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1 hour ago, Mewt said:

 

Any thoughts how the deferred shading will effect VR performance?

 

Many VR players feel like we are on the 'limit' of non-spacewarp/motion-smoothed performance and have to sacrifice a lot of the sexy visuals in order to get true 80 or 90hz gameplay. Even on 5Ghz 2080GTX level kit.

 

Hope we can get these lovely looking improvements without having to sacrifice any (gold dust) frames to do so.


 

 

I actually have a rather similar question. You'll probably have to reduce/turn off AA - I think IL-2 uses MSAA (someone correct me if I'm wrong? I haven't found any concrete info here), and unfortunately MSAA + deferred rendering = big FPS Loss.

 

From my experience deferred rendering doesn't work too well for VR - they tend to shimmer a lot more with deferred than with forward rendering. For example, Raw Data switched from deferred rendering to forward rendering and the amount of jaggies was significantly reduced. But my experience has only been with shooter vr games - maybe there's a difference when you're mainly rendering skies/planes/ground instead of buildings/characters/etc.

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1 minute ago, =FEW=Revolves said:

 

I actually have a rather similar question. You'll probably have to reduce/turn off AA - I think IL-2 uses MSAA (someone correct me if I'm wrong? I haven't found any concrete info here), and unfortunately MSAA + deferred rendering = big FPS Loss.

 

From my experience deferred rendering doesn't work too well for VR - they tend to shimmer a lot more with deferred than with forward rendering. For example, Raw Data switched from deferred rendering to forward rendering and the amount of jaggies was significantly reduced. But my experience has only been with shooter vr games - maybe there's a difference when you're mainly rendering skies/planes/ground instead of buildings/characters/etc.

 

I think the general consensus over in the VR forums is turning in game MSAA off anyway. MSAA + VR SS isn't a happy mix in VR.

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4 minutes ago, Mewt said:

 

I think the general consensus over in the VR forums is turning in game MSAA off anyway. MSAA + VR SS isn't a happy mix in VR.

 

Yeah I already do that to make planes shimmer in order to make them easier to spot. Still, it's less eye candy :P

 

If you look into the stickies peregrine says you can use AA without SS if you want good performance/good visuals and don't care too much having the best settings for spotting:

 

 

Fenris Wolf recommends flying without SS and using AA (again, a sticky):

 

 

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2 hours ago, SJ_Butcher said:

Shouldn't deferred shading increase the performance too?

 

Not really,

Deferred default cost is HIGHER than forward as example, as you need to work with several buffers and do some post processing on the g-buffer. The benefit of this technique is simple: linear cost for adding lights. Therefore, in short: the only reason to use deferred is because you want to have a good amount of lights, if you are using directional outdoor light with nothing extra, makes no sense to use it.  Short said Openworld during day time, not really need deferred. Try to simulate a city with many torches without deferred and without heavy FPS drops .......:biggrin:

 

Hybrid shading makes more sense.........

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58 minutes ago, pfrances said:

If only the game looked like that....I'm not usually one to complain but I have NEVER seen that much density in game. NML is a quiet dead area with the odd puff here and there and the sky is empty.

 

I dream of finding a situation even half as action packed or object dense as that  excellent made video depicts.

 

Love you devs, I don't complain often but that video highlighted everything I wish FC was but isn't.

 

Sorry, but you are looking at the game. I hate it when people say this. I am working with someone to actually take advantage of what's possible as you see in the video and you'll have some missions that look like this. 

 

Jason

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1 hour ago, pfrances said:

If only the game looked like that....I'm not usually one to complain but I have NEVER seen that much density in game. NML is a quiet dead area with the odd puff here and there and the sky is empty.

 

I dream of finding a situation even half as action packed or object dense as that  excellent made video depicts.

 

Love you devs, I don't complain often but that video highlighted everything I wish FC was but isn't.

 

How about this? Unscripted, in-game, multiplayer action all in a in single sortie.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Livai said:

 

Not really,

Deferred default cost is HIGHER than forward as example, as you need to work with several buffers and do some post processing on the g-buffer. The benefit of this technique is simple: linear cost for adding lights. Therefore, in short: the only reason to use deferred is because you want to have a good amount of lights, if you are using directional outdoor light with nothing extra, makes no sense to use it.  Short said Openworld during day time, not need deferred. Try to simulate a city with many torches without deferred.......:biggrin:

 

Hybrid shading makes more sense.........

 

My tests so far with DS is very good in 4K maxed out. 120+ FPS. I detect no difference in my VR performance. Any issues in VR is not related to DS. Also, according to Sergey DS better bifurcates our CPU and GPU work load. So having a powerful GPU will make more of a difference than before. And it allows us to do more trick things like the reflections you see  in this DD without a huge FPS hit. So we'll see how far we take it. Many things in the kitchen.

 

Jason

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