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Fw 190 A-8 no option to remove outer cannons?


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F-8 / G-8 modification removes the outer cannons, but also applies additional armor and thus weight.  I cannot tell if this was the common case though.

 

 

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I'm aware of the F-8 mod but obviously would prefer not carrying the extra weight. I don't know how widespread it was, but for example Priller's A-8 of JG 26 (the one used to strafe the Normandy beaches) was a refular fighter variant with the outer cannons removed.

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10 minutes ago, DD_Arthur said:

The version we have in game does give us the option to remove the outer wing cannons.

 

Only with the F-8 modification.

 

There weren't too many A-8s without outer guns, but the modification certainly was fielded.

One example was Kurt Bühlingen's A-8, which also had the Erla drop-tank shackle.

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29 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

Are you sure you mean the A-8? The A-3 and A-5 do, that's fine.

 

Yes, you're right.  I'm talkin' out my backside.   I thought we had a choice of 30mm or nothing in the outer wing.:)

 

 

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One Luftwaffe FW 190 pilot I read about got rid of all the cannons in the wing.

Left only the two heavy MGs in the nose in place.

Said they were sufficient to his needs.

"I could out turn everything in the sky. That's all I cared about."

 

Proof of Concept?: He lived to tell his tale.

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1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Only with the F-8 modification.

 

There weren't too many A-8s without outer guns, but the modification certainly was fielded.

One example was Kurt Bühlingen's A-8, which also had the Erla drop-tank shackle.

 

Heinz Baer (200 plus kills), when in charge of II./JG 1 in spring 44 also used this config. Red 13 and red 23, both A7s, had the outer 20mm removed by field shop. Seems like the "old hares" prefered performance over firepower. 2 x 20mm and 2 x 13mm is plenty more than the standard 109-G6 had.

 

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-9412.html

Edited by sevenless
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20 minutes ago, sevenless said:

Seems like the "old hares" prefered performance over firepower. 2 x 20mm and 2 x 13mm is plenty more than the standard 109-G6 had.

 

Both Bühlingen and Bär were Geschwaderkommodores. Rank comes with privileges...

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27 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Both Bühlingen and Bär were Geschwaderkommodores. Rank comes with privileges...

 

Yes but you'd think if they considered the layout superior they'd apply it to more than just their own plane for personal preference.

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1 hour ago, vonNutz said:

 

 

Proof of Concept?: He lived to tell his tale.

People live through all kinds of things despite them being stupid, dangerous, or just irrelevant to their survival. Using one dude's survival is not a good indicator that he made the correct decision.

Everyone who engaged in combat and made it through the war - everyone - had an element of chance as part of their survival. You can be the best fighter pilot in the world and a lucky flak shell kills you instantly. Or you can be the worst in the world and the war ends before your bill comes due.

 

35 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

Yes but you'd think if they considered the layout superior they'd apply it to more than just their own plane for personal preference.

Not necessarily. They may have felt that such a layout was better for them - as 'experten' - but the standard layout was better for the average pilot. Or they may have modded their plane as they liked it to give them an edge over their comrades. Or they may have felt that it wasn't their place to mod another pilot's plane in such a way. Who knows?

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38 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

Yes but you'd think if they considered the layout superior they'd apply it to more than just their own plane for personal preference.

 

At first glance that hypothesis seems not to be backed by photographic evidence.

 

I checked Jochen Prien's Volume two of Jagdgeschwader 1 and 11 unit-histories and other than Heinz Bär's aircraft (he supposedly had two different aircraft - one of them had a special, wooden propeller), there's a total of two aircraft that had their outer guns removed or the outer guns aren't really visible. Both (an A-7 and an A-8) were supposedly flown by 6. Staffel.

 

I couldn't really check JG 2, as Eric Mombeek's history of JG 2 isn't out yet for 1944.

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16 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

At first glance that hypothesis seems not to be backed by photographic evidence.

 

I checked Jochen Prien's Volume two of Jagdgeschwader 1 and 11 unit-histories and other than Heinz Bär's aircraft (he supposedly had two different aircraft - one of them had a special, wooden propeller), there's a total of two aircraft that had their outer guns removed or the outer guns aren't really visible. Both (an A-7 and an A-8) were supposedly flown by 6. Staffel.

 

I couldn't really check JG 2, as Eric Mombeek's history of JG 2 isn't out yet for 1944.

 

Good to know in that case. Are you able to check JG 26 to see if Priller indeed had his modded and whether any others were in his Gruppe?

 

On that note, what's the general feeling regarding if this mod was indeed relatively rare and/or applied only by experten, whether that means it should be available in the sim or left out?

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24 minutes ago, =X51=VC_ said:

 

Good to know in that case. Are you able to check JG 26 to see if Priller indeed had his modded and whether any others were in his Gruppe?

 

On that note, what's the general feeling regarding if this mod was indeed relatively rare and/or applied only by experten, whether that means it should be available in the sim or left out?

Generally speaking, I think mods should be available if they were in relatively common usage at at least a squadron level. One-offs or custom Ace configurations should not be modeled IMO. 

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Since the A8 was heavily weighted towards attacking bomber boxes it would not surprise me that the outer guns were only rarely removed.  Using standard head on attack tactics a LW pilot had two seconds or less of trigger time in a pass on the bombers.  I can see why they would want to put out as much firepower as possible.

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1 hour ago, =X51=VC_ said:

Good to know in that case. Are you able to check JG 26 to see if Priller indeed had his modded and whether any others were in his Gruppe?

 

Priller's "Black 13 - + -" had the outer guns removed. It's claimed by Caldwell that removing the outer guns was common among I./JG 26 at the invasion front. There are pictures (not many, however) that back up this claim, but it's impossible to tell whether this concerned just a few airplanes (lack of footage altogether) or if it was indeed carried out generally. One has to take Caldwell's word here. It's also suggested that Stab JG 26 had several aircraft in that configuration (there's a series of pictures about an A-7 with the outer guns removed).

 

I have found a few (not many) pictures of A-9s with the outer guns removed in Rodeike's book on the 190.

Most notably at least one (maybe two or more) aircraft of 4./ JG 301 in November '44 and at least one aircraft of 3./JG 11 in February '45.

 

I think Patrick is correct: At the time the A-8 was around, dealing with bombers was the main mission, so the outer guns were usually not removed. It was possible, but seldomly done.

 

I think it should be an option in game.

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2 hours ago, PatrickAWlson said:

Since the A8 was heavily weighted towards attacking bomber boxes it would not surprise me that the outer guns were only rarely removed.  Using standard head on attack tactics a LW pilot had two seconds or less of trigger time in a pass on the bombers.  I can see why they would want to put out as much firepower as possible.

 

Yes, but there were still units fighting Spitfires over the channel or in Italy. And there were degrees of anti-bomber specialisation right up to the /R2 Sturmbock, but I don't know the proportion of various sub-types and how many squadrons were doing which role.

 

Anyway in game that's not all that relevant. I do enjoy the A-8 very much and the 4 cannons is a very satisfying punch, but there are situations where I'd prefer to squeeze a little extra performance. It would seem to me the existance of the 2-cannon modification is plausible enough to make it a candidate for inclusion, and it certainly wouldn't be game-breaking in any way.

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2 hours ago, MiloMorai said:

An expert on the 190 said that without special orders the outer cannon could not be removed. He also said the rebalancing the a/c without the outer cannons was not something that could be done at unit level.

 

Yes, congratulations - he has been banned for life apparently for his very grievous sins but apparently that's not good enough. Every time this topic comes up (I disagreed with him as well) you come out of the woodwork and bring this up. What is the point in doing that? It's not an issue now and nobody here is arguing about it at all.

 

Good grief you are obsessed, get over it already.

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Thinking about the general topic: I could see a '45 East expansion including some unusual aircraft in order to even out the planeset... I could also see a collector's plane with more field mods (e.g. 2xMg131 sounds interesting). The same goes for other aircraft (e.g. a Hurricane with just 2xShVAK or with the 4 ourtermost 0.303s left in when the ShVAK and UB machineguns were installed)... I don't see a problem with such aircraft as collector's planes - especially if it gives the developers a good return that can help support the base game.

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S! 

 

Summer 1944 when Kuhlmey's detachment from JG54 was in Finland. Their FW190A-7 had their outer wing cannons removed. Seen in pics taken from Immola base. 

 

Would be nice to have this option as a modification. Would not make the 190A-8 a super plane, but give it a bit more responsiveness. 

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1 hour ago, Yogiflight said:

A bit off topic, but how common was the usage of the wing cannons in the A3?

 

Not very. The outer guns were a Rüstsatz without designation and most aircraft were sent to the troops without the outer guns.

 

Just taking JG 2 for a quick reference:

 

Throughout 1942, most aircraft had their outer guns removed or not installed in the first place (probably the latter). One notable exception was Armin Faber's aircraft.

With the Viermots arriving and getting larger in numbers (starting around mi '42) one could see aa very slight increase in numbers of aircraft with the outer guns and there were mixes, too.

In Tunisia, Kurt Bühlingen flew without the MG/FFM, Erich Rudorffer had then installed on his airplane.

 

Looking at pictures from 1943, most airplanes seem to have their MG/FFMs installed.

 

JG 1 and JG 5 also show most airplanes without the outer guns for 1942.

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1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

 

Not very. The outer guns were a Rüstsatz without designation and most aircraft were sent to the troops without the outer guns.

 

Just taking JG 2 for a quick reference:

 

Throughout 1942, most aircraft had their outer guns removed or not installed in the first place (probably the latter). One notable exception was Armin Faber's aircraft.

With the Viermots arriving and getting larger in numbers (starting around mi '42) one could see aa very slight increase in numbers of aircraft with the outer guns and there were mixes, too.

In Tunisia, Kurt Bühlingen flew without the MG/FFM, Erich Rudorffer had then installed on his airplane.

 

Looking at pictures from 1943, most airplanes seem to have their MG/FFMs installed.

 

JG 1 and JG 5 also show most airplanes without the outer guns for 1942.

Thanks for these informations. I would have thought, that 190s on the east front would have been flying with the MG/FFMs for intercepting IL-2s, as some 109s were equipped wing gondolas for that reson.

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13 minutes ago, FliegerAD said:

what about the option to have a bubble canopy like the D9? I like the looks of it.

 

Should be an option - especially for the Bodenplatte timeframe!

7 minutes ago, Yogiflight said:

Thanks for these informations. I would have thought, that 190s on the east front would have been flying with the MG/FFMs for intercepting IL-2s, as some 109s were equipped wing gondolas for that reson.

 

One might think so, but there are lots of pictures of I./JG 54 A-4s with the outer guns not installed.

Seems there wasn't a consistant rule - at least during the earlier months of operations.

 

2x MG151/20 were a pretty good punch againbst the IL-2s and I think is has been shown before, that their alleged invulnerability is only a common myth.

Just look at pilots like Otto Kittel or Joachim Brendel - both of them Sturmovik-high-scorers. Even if they overclaimed by 50% (no allegation, just playing devil's advocate for perspective) they'd have killed almost 100 IL-2s between them...

 

A-5s and A-6s with the outer guns missing have also been seen with JG 54, as noted above.

Edited by Bremspropeller
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I just took a look into the career mode BOS, here the A3s are flying with the MG/FFMs with the 90 rounds magazines, which then should be changed, especially as, from what I read, the 90 rounds magazines were developed for the A5, so not available at that time. Of course, there were also no A3s at Stalingrad, but for the timeframe it would make sense to remove them by default.

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1 hour ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

its a question of hitting something - here the IL2.

If you hit the right place , you dont need the outer guns. If you dont, you also dont need them 🤪

Welllll, yes, but nonetheless, everyone wants to have as many guns as possible.

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1 hour ago, III/JG53Frankyboy said:

its a question of hitting something - here the IL2.

If you hit the right place , you dont need the outer guns. If you dont, you also dont need them 🤪

 

well, yes and no. Limited trigger time on target still means more firepower makes a kill more likely even if you can already aim very well.

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On 4/1/2020 at 10:57 AM, =X51=VC_ said:

 

Good to know in that case. Are you able to check JG 26 to see if Priller indeed had his modded and whether any others were in his Gruppe?

 

On that note, what's the general feeling regarding if this mod was indeed relatively rare and/or applied only by experten, whether that means it should be available in the sim or left out?

I’ve read somewhere that a grand total of 27 D-9s had Ez 42 gyro gunsights, and that’s available as a mod

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On 4/1/2020 at 8:53 AM, vonNutz said:

One Luftwaffe FW 190 pilot I read about got rid of all the cannons in the wing.

Left only the two heavy MGs in the nose in place.

Said they were sufficient to his needs.

"I could out turn everything in the sky. That's all I cared about."

 

Proof of Concept?: He lived to tell his tale.

Also recently someone quoted a newbie gttn to a JG26 unit and asking why the 30mms werent in his wings. He was told he wouldnt need them.  Of course I think they were A5s though.

8 hours ago, AndytotheD said:

I’ve read somewhere that a grand total of 27 D-9s had Ez 42 gyro gunsights, and that’s available as a mod

I also recently read a 109 D9 pilots memoir. He claimed MW50 was exceedingly rare.  When his squadron had the Ds he claimed only 3 or 4 had boost.  Same in 109s according to him.  This was later war of course.

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8 hours ago, =621=Samikatz said:

The D-9s the Soviets captured and pressed into service allegedly didn't have MW-50, and they thought it quite a mediocre airplane because of which

 

The Doras pretty much shot the living crap out of the soviet air force, when they were engaging them.

 

12 hours ago, Sublime said:

Also recently someone quoted a newbie gttn to a JG26 unit and asking why the 30mms werent in his wings. He was told he wouldnt need them.  Of course I think they were A5s though.

 

No A-5s ever had 30mm guns. Their wing wouldn't house them.

AFAIK, JG 26 never fielded MK108s in their 190s ever.

 

12 hours ago, Sublime said:

I also recently read a 109 D9 pilots memoir. He claimed MW50 was exceedingly rare.  When his squadron had the Ds he claimed only 3 or 4 had boost.  Same in 109s according to him.  This was later war of course.

 

Who would that be then?

All Doras starting from December 1944 had boost. If they had the fluid available is another question, but I haven't hear of many supply-issues with MW50 in Dora-units.

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On 4/2/2020 at 1:14 PM, Bremspropeller said:

A-5s and A-6s with the outer guns missing have also been seen with JG 54, as noted above.

 

Also Hermann Graf prefered his Fw190-A5 to NOT have the outer guns (MG FF in this case).

 

 

graf a5.jpg

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