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III./SG77-R_Lehmann

It's time for the Ju 87 D-5!

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Posted (edited)

  

Header.thumb.jpg.507463b9d286f8dd7ae601309fda6ec4.jpg

 

 

 

Dear pilots of the IL-2 Sturmovik Community,

 

Seeing how the game is developing into the 1944-1945 era, I am quite curious why the Ju 87 D-5 hasn't been added to the game yet.
The only difference between the D-3 and the D-5 is the following:

 

  • The D-3 was fitted with 2x 7.92 mm MG 17 guns in the wing. The D-5 was fitted with 2x 20mm MG 151/20 cannon.
  • Outer wing extension of the D-5 was fitted to increase manoeuvrability resulting in a wingspan of 49ft 2½in (15 meters) with an aspect ratio of 6.67.
  • The main undercarriage of the D-5 was jettisonable (just like the Ju 87 C models).
  • In the D-5 the window in the floor of the cockpit was reinforced 
  • Four, rather than the previous three, aileron hinges were installed in the D-5.

 

These were the main differences between the D-3, which is currently flyable ingame, and the D-5. However, there are plenty of aspects that could be introduced for the Ju 87 that would make the aircraft more interesting for pilots to fly. The primary objective of this thread is to get the D-5 into the game. However, there are many other aspects and weaponry that the Stuka also used in WW2. Let's get into the details of some of these aspects that we can find!

 

 

2x 20mm MG 151/20 (D-5 Only)

Spoiler

 

Manufactured by the Waddenfabrik-Mauser, the MG 151/20 cannon was widely used by the Luftwaffe on its fighters, fighter-bombers and ground-attack aircraft including later versions of the Stuka. From early 1943 onwards the Ju 87 Ds carried a pair of MG 151/20s, one in each wing. The single-barrel automatic cannon with its electric priming and 20mm rounds could penetrate 10-12mm of armour at 300 meters and at an attack angle of 60º. With its metre-long barrel and a rate of fire of 740 rounds/min, the MG 151 had an effective range of 1km. When fitted to the Stuka in the ground0attack role it was a formidable weapon with a muzzle velocity of 805m/sec (With the M-Geschoos - high-explosive shells) and the 705,/sec (with HE-T - HE plus incendiary, AP - armour-piercing). 

 

With such armament, the German Luftwaffe became more capable and efficient in the ground-attack role. Allowing the Stukas equipped with the MG 151/20 to deal more damage to all sorts of ground, air and naval vehicles. In particular ground targets. Tanks would also be subjected to more damage. An ideal aspect to add to the game when taken into consideration with the Clash at Prokhorovka expansion. 

 


 

Wing extension (D-5 Only)

Spoiler

No further information, other than the total wing span could be found.

 

 

Jettisonable undercarriage

Spoiler

 

In Hans-Ulrich Rudel book he quotes something relatable about the topic in his book 'Stuka Pilot'. Also Helmut Mahlke in his book 'Memoirs of a Stuka Pilot' has mentioned the deliberate attempt to break off the undercarriage to make a safer crashlanding.

 

"But I have to come down, otherwise the dangerous apathy brought on from my wounded body will again steal over me. I kick the rudder-bar with my left foot and howl with agony. But surely it was my right leg that was hit? Pull to the right, I bring the nose of the aircraft up and slide her gently onto her belly, in this way perhaps the release gear of the undercarriage will not function and I can make it after all. If not we shall pancake. The aircraft is on fire ... she bumps and skids for a second."

- Rudel on the day he lost his leg, late war.

 

"I tried to slam her down as hard as possible. If I could wipe the undercarriage legs off there would be less chance of the machine cartwheeling"

- Mahlke on when he needed to crashland his damaged Stuka

 

What can't be confirmed is that the Ju 87 D-5 was able to jettison their undercarriage similarly like bombs. What can be confirmed is that the undercarriage had a design breakpoint to come off cleanly under high translational forces. Such as getting caught in a ditch during an emergency landing. The idea was to avoid flipping over the entire aircraft what could result in possible severe injuries to the crew. Here are some photo's that indeed confirm this design breakpoint. But I am glad to inform you that this feature is already ingame! Bravo 1C & 777!

 

1989110297_Rudelcrash.jpg.3acd116da0cf4d60bd28223988e1b207.jpg

Rudel his crashlanding when he surrenderd to American forces.
Note that a part of the undercarriege lies behind the wing under the fuselage

 

 

 

Dive-bombing sight (Sturzvisier)

Spoiler

 

The Sturzvisier dive-bombing sight (commonly abbreviated to Stuvi') was an electrically operated analogue optical sighting device that was designed especially for use in dive-bombing. It was fitted into the roof of the pilot's cockpit in the upper front windscreen above the instrument panel in most versions of the Ju 87 from the B-series through the D. On some D-series the Stuvia was hinged up into a small Plexiglas bubble at the top of the windscreen. Manufactured by Zeiss-Ikon, it calculated the angle between the longitudinal axis of the aircraft and the sight-line to the point of impact of the bomb.

 

9.thumb.jpg.3cafb9c76f93bed4ca773761b3f0471c.jpg

The Stuvi

 

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The Stuvi with the bubble windscreen

 

To compute the correct moment of bomb-release, it used the manual input data for bombing height, angle of dive, airspeed, wind speed, air pressure above sea level (ASL) of the target and the target height ASL. When it was needed, the pilot hinged the Stuvi sight into its operational position, switching it on to activate the internal light and gyroscope. The aiming reticle appeared on the rectangular ground glass screen following data input and was placed on the target. When not in use the site was rotated 90º to the right to avoid blocking the pilot's forward view. Despite such sophisticated sighting equipment the Ju 87 also had a belt-and-braces aid to help the pilot calculate his dive angle. Lines (similar to those on a mathematical protractor) were marked on the pilot's section of the Plexiglas cockpit canopy. This usually took the form of four short intersecting lined on the side canopy next to the pilot's head, with each angle identified by colour: 40º in red, 50º in black, 60º in white, 70º in brown. The pilot put the aircraft into a dive and aligned the selected angle marking with the general horizon.

 

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The explanation of the sight

 

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The Stuvi sight in its 'storage' position.

 

 

 

Panzerbombe-Cylindrisch (Armour-piercing bomb)

Spoiler

The PC series of bombs differed from the SC series because they had thick cases for enhanced penetration of armoured targets like warships or reinforced concrete fortifications. While the SD series bombs could be used in a semi-armour piercing role the PC series of bombs were specifically designed as armour-piercing bombs. Since they had thicker hardened steel cases their charge to weight ratio was only 20% of their total weight. Bombs in the PC series included the PC 500, PC 1000, PC 1400, and PC 1600. The number in the bombs designation corresponded to the approximate weight of the bomb. The smaller bombs had either Amatol or TNT while the larger bombs were filled more powerful explosives like RDX and Trialen to compensate for their reduced charges. The PC series of bombs were fitted with a time delay fuze which detonated the bomb after it had pierced a target destroying it with a combination of its blast and fragments. The PC series served as a base for the later PC RS series rocket-propelled bombs which were designed to enhance penetration by increasing their terminal velocity. The PC 1400 was also modified by adding a guidance package to become the Fritz X guided bomb.

 

 

The 'Raketen-Panzerbomben'

Spoiler

 

The armour-piercing PC 500 RS 'Pauline' and PC 1000 'Paul' RS Raketen Satz (rocket-propelled) bombs were designed for use primarily against shipping targets, with the rocket motor increasing the terminal velocity and armour penetration qualities of the bomb. Using a standard AP bomb, a coupling attached the rocket container to the bomb's tail. A time fuse delayed the start of the solid-fuel rocket motor to prevent any damage to the aircraft. The bomb could reach speeds up to 345m/sec on impact when dropped from 2000m, making it possible to smash armour plate on tanks and ships. Most of these weapons were used in 1941 against shipping in the Mediterranean.

 

8.thumb.jpg.c81dc913b9d4d2156f99d79814ee28db.jpg

Note the little rocket motor on the fins of the bombs closest and furthest in the picture.

 

 

 

Mirror

Spoiler

 

Self-explanatory. Makes any pilot capable of looking behind himself without having to turn his head. However, it only shows a little view of what is behind the pilot and his aircraft.

 

5.jpg.d229a4939374d4becdf103f3356520ca.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Sources: Junkers Ju 87 'Stuka' Manual by Jonathan Falconer,  Stuka Pilot by Hans-Ulrich Rudel, Wikipedia

Edited by III./SG77-R_Lehmann
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Posted (edited)

Yeah, the Stuvi. One piece of equip that is sorely missing up until now.

 

PS: loved the technical explanation regarding how a mirror works and what it is for.

Edited by danielprates
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36 minutes ago, III./SG77-R_Lehmann said:

Self-explanatory. Makes any pilot capable of looking behind himself without having to turn his head. However, it only shows a little view of what is behind the pilot and his aircraft.

 

Which is not important ingame because you have an AWACS gunner who makes callouts around 1,5km.(if the gunner is not bugged and doesnt do callouts)

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24 minutes ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

Which is not important ingame because you have an AWACS gunner who makes callouts around 1,5km.(if the gunner is not bugged and doesnt do callouts)

AWACS from afar, CIWS up close*

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2 minutes ago, TheTacticalCat said:

AWACS from afar, CIWS up close*

CWIS with teleport and shoot round corners with time dilation capability.

 

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Just now, III./SG77-S_Falke said:

I want to see the Ju87 D5 in our simulation...  ☺️

 

And I have been waiting for it for a while...

Same here!

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1 hour ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

Which is not important ingame because you have an AWACS gunner who makes callouts around 1,5km.(if the gunner is not bugged and doesnt do callouts)


Well, some pilots would like the immersion of having a mirror in the cockpit, just like the images that can be placed in the cockpit. It's more of a suggestion what could be added to the Ju 87 D-3 and D-5 rather than discussing if it's important or not. The allied aircraft also have the option to be fitted with mirrors in the cockpit, so why shouldn't the Stuka?

 

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Have an upvote, well organized and laid out nicely.

We need more quality posts like this.

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Agreed, a D-5 would be good to have. Can we have a B-2 as well? The Moscow map needs it. The Stuvi is a must for all of the Stukas, and for the Ju88 as well.

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Posted (edited)

It would be a damn shame if this thread were to be polutted and diverted to discussing out-of-topic issues, such as how good AI rear gunners are at their jobs.

 

The OP has a great point, it deserves on-topic debate. And the devs' attention.

 

I for one have been mentioning the Stuvi sight for... what, a couple of years now, and it is twice as relevant since (iirc) the Ju88 also used it, so this thread may become a very good venue towards petitioning good and relevant improvements. Kudos to @III./SG77-R_Lehmann.

Edited by danielprates
Damn small smartphone screen
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Wings extensions of the D-5 are already planned on the official template of the D-3 as seen on the screenshot below (wireframe of still unused parts of the template) :

Ju87D5.thumb.jpg.41710366dab3272ac5752d86e35fcd01.jpg

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3 minutes ago, 216th_Cat said:

Agreed, a D-5 would be good to have. Can we have a B-2 as well? The Moscow map needs it. The Stuvi is a must for all of the Stukas, and for the Ju88 as well.

 

True it, the Stuvi was used on the Me 410 and Do 217 too. However, they also had a different version. But I have excluded that information because the topic is mainly about the Stuka.
I'm also working on a project that includes all the information for the Battle of Malta. Would include the R versions plus perhaps the first carrier operations in the IL-2 Great Battle series. The B version would also be enjoyed by many pilots!

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2 hours ago, danielprates said:

PS: loved the technical explanation regarding how a mirror works and what it is for.

 

Indeed, we find the modified Feynman diagram (below) helpful in getting our heads around the Mirror enigma.

 

Where the -ig mu lambda/(q-p)^2 term is replaced by 2xMG 81Z

 

 

FD.png

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2 hours ago, III./SG77-R_Lehmann said:

  

Seeing how the game is developing into the 1944-1945 era, I am quite curious why the Ju 87 D-5 hasn't been added to the game yet.

 

If I am not mistaken, several SGs still had Ju 87 D5s in late 1944, so it could be used for late war scenarios, too. And that could make for some fun campaigns, trying to evade swarms of Yaks without much fighter cover...

 

Anyway, I agree the D5 is needed. The Raketenbomben in particular would be interesting, even though we somewhat lack the proper targets for now.

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Feynman was a genius!  I finally understand mirrors!

We need the B so we can fly a proper Moscow campaign, kinda silly Moscow campaign with no Stukas.

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Maybe after BON the devs will do something like Operation Bagration which may include the D-5.

1 hour ago, III./SG77-K_Bobo said:

We need the B so we can fly a proper Moscow campaign, kinda silly Moscow campaign with no Stukas.

Agree. Perhaps with an early Eastern front battle like Finland, or Battle of Barbarossa, or maybe just as an additional collector plane. Though on PWCG you can fly the Ju-87 on BOM Career.

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Yes, I agree a late war theatre with the D-5 would be nice...

 

Hopefully we'll get the dive bombing sight for the Me-410 in BoN (and it'll later be applied to the -88 and eventually to the -87). The mirror looks like a good idea as well...  these, and the cannons, might compensate for the fact that some people don't like night flying.

 

I might suggest SD70 and SC70 with 'long nose' fuzes for use when the ground is soft as a better choice than the specialist anti-shipping bombs. They'd certainly be more useful with the updated fragmentation model - and they're more appropriate for the East.

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a new stuka would be great,i support it. We all know though most of the German bombing campaign in WWII was exclusively Me-110 based, as currently demonstrated in game.   

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26 minutes ago, gimpy117 said:

We all know though most of the German bombing campaign in WWII was exclusively Me-110 based, as currently demonstrated in game.   

 

What?

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7 minutes ago, LukeFF said:

 

What?

just a little joke. i rarely see stukas in multi 

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I don't think you are too far off. I find that "German" pilots tend to fly the fighters and not the attack or Bomber types of planes, but a topic for another thread. D-5 would be a fine addition. 

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On 3/28/2020 at 3:43 PM, MeoW.Scharfi said:

 

Which is not important ingame because you have an AWACS gunner who makes callouts around 1,5km.(if the gunner is not bugged and doesnt do callouts)

 

Gunner will call out when an ennemy is around but without telling you precisly where he is (it can be just passing high over your head without seeing you). Eventually you can check where he's pointing his gun. I understand it can be important for somes, especially (I guess?) for VR users.

 

 

 

I'm 200% for the Stuka D5 !!!

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On 3/28/2020 at 3:05 PM, III./SG77-R_Lehmann said:

  

 

Jettisonable undercarriage

  Hide contents

 

. But I am glad to inform you that this feature is already ingame! Bravo 1C & 777!

 

1989110297_Rudelcrash.jpg.3acd116da0cf4d60bd28223988e1b207.jpg

 

 

 

How can I do that?? @III./SG77-R_Lehmann

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1 hour ago, ITAF_Airone1989 said:

How can I do that?? @III./SG77-R_Lehmann

 

It's fairly easy! Make sure you have some speed when doing this. Just try to do an attempt at landing with a slightly steeper angle but you want to smash down the undercarriage as hard as possible on the ground. The speed of the impact and the angle will help to break of the undercarriage. Test it out in quick battles! If you do it in the normal mode you'll be able to look with the 3rd person camera so you can see how the impact looks.

 

20200330125609_1.thumb.jpg.ce6aa44d26284546d9e7bf51f18008b5.jpg

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I wanted the Ju87D5 before it was cool.

 

But it won't happen i guess.

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1 hour ago, MeoW.Scharfi said:

I wanted the Ju87D5 before it was cool.

 

But it won't happen i guess.

 

Well, here's why you might be wrong. Each game has its community. Everyone wants to see something happening that they will like. However, just being a single voice among the hundreds would not result in any change for the game. Unless if more like-minded people share that same idea. Bundle your forces and make your suggestion known to the developers. If only 50'ish players would like to see that idea to be realized, sure it could happen! But only if the developers see potential in it and also share that idea.  But if there is a huge demand let say, 500-1000 players, share that idea it would be more likely to be realized.

 

But again, it's not necessarily about the number of players I will reach with this topic (more is better of course!) as long as the developers can be convinced to share this idea with its community. Only then it will happen.

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On 3/30/2020 at 6:22 PM, MeoW.Scharfi said:

I wanted the Ju87D5 before it was cool.

 

But it won't happen i guess.

There is an chance the Ju87D-5 might be one of the 5 aircraft in an late war eastern front expansion, especially considering there isn't much other choice left for the luftwaffe for that timeframe.

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32 minutes ago, ww2fighter20 said:

There is an chance the Ju87D-5 might be one of the 5 aircraft in an late war eastern front expansion, especially considering there isn't much other choice left for the luftwaffe for that timeframe.

I'm sorry-Eastern Front expansion? I haven't heard of this.Is there a link for further info or is this crystal gazing?

s-l40t0.jpg

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Even though I find the Stuka very interesting as such, I would prefer to see the B/R-2 variant in the sim. Of course, the D3 and the D5 are not the same, but in my opinion they are still very similar. Unfortunately the D5 is more likely than the B2 :(

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Posted (edited)

@III./SG77-R_Lehmann - Threadopener

 

I swear by all gods and my ancestors - I just came here in this subsection to make this proposal to add finally the D-5 variant into this game.

Thank you

 

Daydreaming - "IL-2 Great Battles - Battle of Italy 1943/44"

 

 

 

 

PS:

If neccessary - a collector plane will do it too, for us CAS freaks :crazy:

Edited by KG_S_Kalle_Kalutz82
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On 3/28/2020 at 6:08 PM, FliegerAD said:

 

If I am not mistaken, several SGs still had Ju 87 D5s in late 1944, so it could be used for late war scenarios, too. And that could make for some fun campaigns, trying to evade swarms of Yaks without much fighter cover...

 

Anyway, I agree the D5 is needed. The Raketenbomben in particular would be interesting, even though we somewhat lack the proper targets for now.

 

Well, according to "Mein Kriegstagebuch" (my war diary) from Hans-Ulrich Rudel, he and many others prefered the Ju87 over the FW190 for the CAS role until the end of war.

Mostly cause the Ju87 could quiet take a punch to its airframe and were really reliable.

Also, the D5 was available from June 1943 on.

IL-2: Battle of Italy - 1943 :biggrin:

 

But off course they had the upgraded versions of the Ju87....sooo....D5 ;)

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Yes, I have been wanting a  D5 for forever!!! Having 20 mm canons would make a lot more people fly one of the most iconic a/c of the war.

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