RedKestrel 3663 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 It's nice to see in video form what AnPetrovich was talking about a little while back. It looks to me like the airframe structure responds more realistically to the different ammo types, and while you still have bits falling off and the occasional catastrophic failure, it looks a lot closer to guncam footage and you see a lot more planes going out of control due to surface/lift loss rather than loss of wings. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
E69_geramos109 867 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Couple of mk108 hits should be capable of dewing any fighter. 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
=gRiJ=Roman- 691 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) The next step is clear to me. Being able to select different ammo cocktails. It opens a new path ... Edited March 20, 2020 by =gRiJ=Roman- 1 Link to post Share on other sites
30speed 630 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said: Couple of mk108 hits should be capable of dewing any fighter. stop trolling. 5 Link to post Share on other sites
Bando 297 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 That was great to watch. Thanks!! Link to post Share on other sites
LF_Gallahad 1872 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said: Couple of mk108 hits should be capable of dewing any fighter. It depends but mostly, no, it's not. Most combat footage is usually "really visual" with amazing explosions and uncommon kills. The only way to really know if a wing is able to be detached is with science and calculations that can prove it. Edited March 20, 2020 by LF_Gallahad 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Missionbug 455 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Superb work you guys are doing, any improvements are always welcome even if they do delay other things, better they are put right than they detract from the overall product. Will be good to see it up close and personal in forthcoming battles. Take care, be safe. Wishing you all the very best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites
Aurora_Stealth 202 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Kudos to the team! had the popcorn out and was searching for the NFL scorecard at the bottom of the screen while Jason was chasing those fighters haha. Looks terrific! can't believe how close the gameplay looks to real gun camera footage and those fighters slipping out of control! and that Tempest kill explosion XD .. what a difference it all makes - thank you. Can't wait to try this in-game. Link to post Share on other sites
RedKestrel 3663 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 22 minutes ago, =gRiJ=Roman- said: The next step is clear to me. Being able to select different ammo cocktails. It opens a new path ... The M in M2 stands for Martini 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Barnacles 789 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 20 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said: Couple of mk108 hits should be capable of dewing any fighter. I've actually IRL shot stuff with a 30mm cannon. I don't think it's necessarily correct to say a mk108 round guarantees a fighter kill. Of course it should be possible to one-shot something if you hit in the right place, but that's the same for most weapons. Even a mine shell has far less explosive than a hand grenade, and unless you got optimum penetration you would not expect structural damage from one. Of course inevitably that film of a spitfire's wing will be rolled out, but that proves my point. Most hits aren't as optimal as the example in that film. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Trooper117 2623 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Enjoyed the video... some good work going on. Good voice over by Jason too, good explanation and tone, pleasant to listen to! Link to post Share on other sites
VampireNZ 13 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 As an aircraft design engineer I find these changes quite intriguing, and will watch the progress with interest. I would be interested to know if you are modelling actual wing structure such as main spars and control devices for ailerons. Such as the effect of placing several rounds through the inboard main wing spar and then the ability of the aircraft to withstand high G-loads without buckling. I notice a 109 you were chasing perform a high speed high-G pullup after you place rounds through his wing. Will AI aircraft change their flying based on the damage they receive in an effort to keep the aircraft in one piece, and will G-load even be calculated with regard to wing damage? I see lots of mentions of guncam footage etc, and trying to match aircraft tougness based on that. Yes aircraft can still fly relatively level with major wing damage as the only load the wings are carrying is the weight of the aircraft - when they are designed to handle much higher loads, but start throwing it around with high-G turns and pull-ups and it should be a different story! It would be nice to see aircraft receive wing damage and still fly, but if the pilot continues to fly aggressively with High-speed/High G maneuvers then the wing could buckle all on it's own, which would be satisfying to watch. Perhaps the wing could have some sort of strength factor that would be multiplied by the G-load, and as this factor reduces with damage the wing would be more likely to fail. In the player aircraft as you approached this limit it could be indicated by some type of auditory warning such as the wing structure 'groaning' and even flexing a bit (not sure if IL-2 models wing-flex?). In any case, have been playing IL-2 on and off since early 2000 and it's great to see this sim advancing so rapidly lately, great job guys! Link to post Share on other sites
Rjel 1712 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 I like the idea that the new damage model will make it more difficult to get a kill. Combining the damage model with AI development is bringing this sim much closer to reality. Link to post Share on other sites
Mysticpuma 1286 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Jason, couple of thoughts. I agree with what VampireNZ said in that the aircraft is damaged in the wing and wonder if high G manoeuvres will see a wing buckle/collapse? Second thought (and I watched/listened to the video), I mentioned that Clod had a great visual damage effect caused by hydraulic damage. When hydraulics are damaged, fluid leaks and in Clod you could see a single or both wheels steadily creep down as it drains away and pressure is lost. Will the new DM be able to do this? Thanks for the work and video, appreciate it, cheers, Mysticpuma. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
1CGS Jason_Williams 27387 Posted March 20, 2020 Author 1CGS Share Posted March 20, 2020 27 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said: Jason, couple of thoughts. I agree with what VampireNZ said in that the aircraft is damaged in the wing and wonder if high G manoeuvres will see a wing buckle/collapse? Second thought (and I watched/listened to the video), I mentioned that Clod had a great visual damage effect caused by hydraulic damage. When hydraulics are damaged, fluid leaks and in Clod you could see a single or both wheels steadily creep down as it drains away and pressure is lost. Will the new DM be able to do this? Thanks for the work and video, appreciate it, cheers, Mysticpuma. G-load can already break a damaged wing. Nothing has changed in that regard. It just won't happen unless the wing is quite damaged. Before it would just fly off anyways. And I answered your second question in the video. Jason 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites
theOden 195 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Enjoyed that brief American humor, keep it coming Stay safe in your bunker while I start to learn the P-47 for future use. (if you're a lousy shooter, I have no name for my marksmanship - I'm still convinced the exe has hardcoded "if shooterIsOden then miss") Link to post Share on other sites
1CGS Jason_Williams 27387 Posted March 20, 2020 Author 1CGS Share Posted March 20, 2020 I was cheating i the video. I had aim assist on so I could speed up getting footage. Jason 4 Link to post Share on other sites
=gRiJ=Roman- 691 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, RedKestrel said: The M in M2 stands for Martini I'll take a couple of those ... Link to post Share on other sites
DD_Arthur 2813 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Great video. Really looking forward to the next update. Thank you Jason and the Team for keeping the show going during these uncertain times. Link to post Share on other sites
RTA_Mojo 7 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Thanks for the video! Looking great. Stay save y'all. Link to post Share on other sites
Pict 556 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) Great update. I also want to say that I have big respect for you and the team for having the discipline to keep working and working effectively even though like many of us you are isolated at home. Edited March 20, 2020 by Pict Link to post Share on other sites
E69_geramos109 867 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Count_de_Money said: stop trolling. Is not trolling. I just hope that the change will improve in all ways the Dm not just solving one problem at the cost of causing other. 2 hours ago, LF_Gallahad said: It depends but mostly, no, it's not. Most combat footage is usually "really visual" with amazing explosions and uncommon kills. The only way to really know if a wing is able to be detached is with science and calculations that can prove it. Well. I would say that mostly yes unless you are lucky. I agree with you, we need evidence and not just some combat fotage with a lot of smoke that is why there were some test done. You can see here what a shell can do to a wing Or just a shell on the tail of a spit: And you have here the tail of a biguer plane. Twin engine blenheim i think And remeber that this is a single hit... You can find the trials with video about the hits on internet and we have a very nice post even on the forum. 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites
LuseKofte 3760 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Many thanks. The era of P 47 begins. fantastic DD. Best news to date 1 Link to post Share on other sites
[CPT]Crunch 304 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Looks fantastic, some superb and varied stuff. If you get bored in the bunker and have the time would love to see one with engine damage on. Link to post Share on other sites
J2_Bidu 455 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Just wondering if there is any impact on FC...? Link to post Share on other sites
LF_Gallahad 1872 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 (edited) 35 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said: (...) Everything is valid but let's wait and see what happens when the update drops. No point in discussing here in terms of what should happen in Il-2. There are loads of data and I am sure that the team used all of that. Edited March 20, 2020 by LF_Gallahad 2 Link to post Share on other sites
VampireNZ 13 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said: G-load can already break a damaged wing. Nothing has changed in that regard. It just won't happen unless the wing is quite damaged. Before it would just fly off anyways. Jason Thanks for the info Jason, was just wondering if it was a linear thing based on damage level to wing/where the damage was and varying chance of wing failure with G-load - not just G-pulled, wing falls off if damaged. Also was actually just watching some YT vids of IL-2 combat and noticed a fighter with a flaming wing root (ruptured fuel tank I presume) tearing around like nothing was wrong. IRL the heat would weaken the aluminium structure of the wing and the flilght loads would tear it off. In my time as aircrew on a multi-engine military aircraft, an uncontrollable wing hot indication (bleed air leak/fire etc) would mean an immediate ditching before what I mentioned would inevitably happen. Link to post Share on other sites
LF_Gallahad 1872 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, VampireNZ said: Also was actually just watching some YT vids of IL-2 combat and noticed a fighter with a flaming wing root (ruptured fuel tank I presume) tearing around like nothing was wrong. IRL the heat would weaken the aluminium structure of the wing and the flilght loads would tear it off. In my time as aircrew on a multi-engine military aircraft, an uncontrollable wing hot indication (bleed air leak/fire etc) would mean an immediate ditching before what I mentioned would inevitably happen. I am 99% sure that happens in the game already. Wing comes off after some time with fire or the fuel tank eventually explodes 1 Link to post Share on other sites
30speed 630 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 48 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said: Is not trolling. I just hope that the change will improve in all ways the Dm not just solving one problem at the cost of causing other. you're not new to this forum. I'm sure you've seen countless posts about 30mm and their effectiveness along with all of the same pictures you've attached. Eventually every one those posts concludes with the fact that historically there was a great deal of variables in the way the 30mm penetrates/explodes in real combat environment compared to a controlled testbed depicted in those pictures. IL2 is simulating the real combat scenario and not a static test, invalidating your claims. Hence let's not prolong this argument any further as it is quite pointless. 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites
E69_geramos109 867 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said: you're not new to this forum. I'm sure you've seen countless posts about 30mm and their effectiveness along with all of the same pictures you've attached. Eventually every one those posts concludes with the fact that historically there was a great deal of variables in the way the 30mm penetrates/explodes in real combat environment compared to a controlled testbed depicted in those pictures. IL2 is simulating the real combat scenario and not a static test, invalidating your claims. Hence let's not prolong this argument any further as it is quite pointless. I guess the english goverment had money to spend on useless test that did not represent the combat enviroment and wich made any conclusion. You know... they were kind of stupids and they did not know that the test is rubish and invalid. For sure some guys on the forum knows more than enginiers and military making the test. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
30speed 630 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said: I guess the english goverment had money to spend on useless test that did not represent the combat enviroment and wich made any conclusion. You know... they were kind of stupids and they did not know that the test is rubish and invalid. For sure some guys on the forum knows more than enginiers and military making the test. you're jumping in to conclusions very quickly. I didn't say that 30mm wasn't capable of de-winging aircraft. I just wanted you to stop this argument because given the previous history this argument goes nowhere. Just like now. Simply put: 1) Q: can 30mm dewing? A: quite possibly Yes. 2) Q: Can it dewing every time? A:No. 3) Q: Why not? A: because Variables. Better? Link to post Share on other sites
Freycinet 862 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 you really hit it out of the ballpark with this video, Jason. Thanks!!! Link to post Share on other sites
SCG_motoadve 1895 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 11 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said: I guess the english goverment had money to spend on useless test that did not represent the combat enviroment and wich made any conclusion. You know... they were kind of stupids and they did not know that the test is rubish and invalid. For sure some guys on the forum knows more than enginiers and military making the test. Do you have any links to videos of P47s and P51s being de winged by 30mm hits? I would be interested in seeing them. Link to post Share on other sites
VO101Kurfurst 880 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Thank you for this heads up Jason. For me this is the most anticipated updates and developments of all - far better than new content like maps, aircraft to be honest. It adds depth and I am quite convinced that such engineering based approach to structural damage is a game changer as far as combat flight sims go. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites
E69_geramos109 867 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said: you're jumping in to conclusions very quickly. I didn't say that 30mm wasn't capable of de-winging aircraft. I just wanted you to stop this argument because given the previous history this argument goes nowhere. Just like now. Simply put: 1) Q: can 30mm dewing? A: quite possibly Yes. 2) Q: Can it dewing every time? A:No. 3) Q: Why not? A: because Variables. Better? Yes that is why i posted "should be" an not "must" so i was not pretending to troll 1 Link to post Share on other sites
I./JG1_Baron 820 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 1 hour ago, J2_Bidu said: Just wondering if there is any impact on FC...? Yes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
ACG_KaiLae 272 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Curious how 37mm hits will affect aircraft, especially with the yak-9T coming. Link to post Share on other sites
Barnacles 789 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 42 minutes ago, SCG_motoadve said: Do you have any links to videos of P47s and P51s being de winged by 30mm hits? I would be interested in seeing them. Here's a German trial of them not. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
danielprates 580 Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 This is wonderful. Even more so than the dewing issue being adressed, more damage types is very very welcome. Link to post Share on other sites
[CPT]HarryM 324 Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 An end to the "Flugel ab" era. Link to post Share on other sites
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