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Developer Diary 245 - Discussion


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It's nice to see in video form what AnPetrovich was talking about a little while back. It looks to me like the airframe structure responds more realistically to the different ammo types, and while you still have bits falling off and the occasional catastrophic failure, it looks a lot closer to guncam footage and you see a lot more planes going out of control due to surface/lift loss rather than loss of wings.

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13 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Couple of mk108 hits should be capable of dewing any fighter. 

It depends but mostly, no, it's not. Most combat footage is usually "really visual" with amazing explosions and uncommon kills. The only way to really know if a wing is able to be detached is with science and calculations that can prove it. 

 

Edited by LF_Gallahad
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Superb work you guys are doing, any improvements are always welcome even if they do delay other things, better they are put right than they detract from the

overall product.:drinks:

 

Will be good to see it up close and personal in forthcoming battles.;)

 

Take care, be safe.

 

Wishing you all the very best, Pete.:biggrin:

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Kudos to the team! had the popcorn out and was searching for the NFL scorecard at the bottom of the screen while Jason was chasing those fighters haha.

 

Looks terrific! can't believe how close the gameplay looks to real gun camera footage and those fighters slipping out of control! and that Tempest kill explosion XD   .. what a difference it all makes - thank you. Can't wait to try this in-game.

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20 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Couple of mk108 hits should be capable of dewing any fighter. 

I've actually IRL shot stuff with a 30mm cannon. I don't think it's necessarily correct to say a mk108 round guarantees a fighter kill. Of course it should be possible to one-shot something if you hit in the right place, but that's the same for most weapons. Even a mine shell has far less explosive than a hand grenade, and unless you got optimum penetration you would not expect structural damage from one. Of course inevitably that film of a spitfire's wing will be rolled out, but that proves my point. Most hits aren't as optimal as the example in that film.

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As an aircraft design engineer I find these changes quite intriguing, and will watch the progress with interest.

 

I would be interested to know if you are modelling actual wing structure such as main spars and control devices for ailerons. Such as the effect of placing several rounds through the inboard main wing spar and then the ability of the aircraft to withstand high G-loads without buckling.

I notice a 109 you were chasing perform a high speed high-G pullup after you place rounds through his wing. Will AI aircraft change their flying based on the damage they receive in an effort to keep the aircraft in one piece, and will G-load even be calculated with regard to wing damage?

 

I see lots of mentions of guncam footage etc, and trying to match aircraft tougness based on that. Yes aircraft can still fly relatively level with major wing damage as the only load the wings are carrying is the weight of the aircraft - when they are designed to handle much higher loads, but start throwing it around with high-G turns and pull-ups and it should be a different story!

 

It would be nice to see aircraft receive wing damage and still fly, but if the pilot continues to fly aggressively with High-speed/High G maneuvers then the wing could buckle all on it's own, which would be satisfying to watch. Perhaps the wing could have some sort of strength factor that would be multiplied by the G-load, and as this factor reduces with damage the wing would be more likely to fail. In the player aircraft as you approached this limit it could be indicated by some type of auditory warning such as the wing structure 'groaning' and even flexing a bit (not sure if IL-2 models wing-flex?).

 

In any case, have been playing IL-2 on and off since early 2000 and it's great to see this sim advancing so rapidly lately, great job guys!

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I like the idea that the new damage model will make it more difficult  to get a kill. Combining the damage model with AI development is bringing this sim much closer to reality.

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Jason, couple of thoughts. 

I agree with what VampireNZ said in that the aircraft is damaged in the wing and wonder if high G manoeuvres will see a wing buckle/collapse?

 

Second thought (and I watched/listened to the video), I mentioned that Clod had a great visual damage effect caused by hydraulic damage. When hydraulics are damaged, fluid leaks and in Clod you could see a single or both wheels steadily creep down as it drains away and pressure is lost. Will the new DM be able to do this? 

 

Thanks for the work and video, appreciate it, cheers, Mysticpuma. 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, Mysticpuma said:

Jason, couple of thoughts. 

I agree with what VampireNZ said in that the aircraft is damaged in the wing and wonder if high G manoeuvres will see a wing buckle/collapse?

 

Second thought (and I watched/listened to the video), I mentioned that Clod had a great visual damage effect caused by hydraulic damage. When hydraulics are damaged, fluid leaks and in Clod you could see a single or both wheels steadily creep down as it drains away and pressure is lost. Will the new DM be able to do this? 

 

Thanks for the work and video, appreciate it, cheers, Mysticpuma. 

 

 

 

G-load can already break a damaged wing. Nothing has changed in that regard. It just won't happen unless the wing is quite damaged. Before it would just fly off anyways.

 

And I answered your second question in the video.

 

Jason

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Enjoyed that brief American humor, keep it coming :)

Stay safe in your bunker while I start to learn the P-47 for future use.

(if you're a lousy shooter, I have no name for my marksmanship - I'm still convinced the exe has hardcoded "if shooterIsOden then miss")

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Great update.

 

I also want to say that I have big respect for you and the team for having the discipline to keep working and working effectively even though like many of us you are isolated at home.

Edited by Pict
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2 hours ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

stop trolling.

Is not trolling. I just hope that the change will improve in all ways the Dm not just solving one problem at the cost of causing other. 

 

2 hours ago, LF_Gallahad said:

It depends but mostly, no, it's not. Most combat footage is usually "really visual" with amazing explosions and uncommon kills. The only way to really know if a wing is able to be detached is with science and calculations that can prove it. 

 

Well. I would say that mostly yes unless you are lucky. I agree with you, we need evidence and not just some combat fotage with a lot of smoke that is why there were some test done. 

You can see here what a shell can do to a wing

6LjgTqf.thumb.jpg.3e979b83e61dd468dde92065b88f949a.jpgVd77YpM.thumb.jpg.28ad0207916058804ae4d6b8362d2168.jpg1175547523_spitwing.thumb.jpg.e566060e2a02acb8ed0ce5291ffa04ea.jpg

 

Or just a shell on the tail of a spit:

ffKKSTt.thumb.jpg.f53623e47f750f72db886052596ff0d5.jpgZnF9AJ2.thumb.jpg.49356e91d85f838c80c39c223af42712.jpg

frase.thumb.jpg.4c36ed31f2693a673e91caae97749a92.jpg

 And you have here the tail of a biguer plane. Twin engine blenheim i think

3fi6rXi.thumb.jpg.cb4aa38fbdcdabe8140cb1897499630f.jpg

 

 

And remeber that this is a single hit... 

You can find the trials with video about the hits on internet and we have a very nice post even on the forum. 

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

 

(...)

 

Everything is valid but let's wait and see what happens when the update drops. No point in discussing here in terms of what should happen in Il-2. There are loads of data and I am sure that the team used all of that.

Edited by LF_Gallahad
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1 hour ago, Jason_Williams said:

 

G-load can already break a damaged wing. Nothing has changed in that regard. It just won't happen unless the wing is quite damaged. Before it would just fly off anyways.

 

Jason

 

Thanks for the info Jason, was just wondering if it was a linear thing based on damage level to wing/where the damage was and varying chance of wing failure with G-load - not just G-pulled, wing falls off if damaged.

 

Also was actually just watching some YT vids of IL-2 combat and noticed a fighter with a flaming wing root (ruptured fuel tank I presume) tearing around like nothing was wrong.

IRL the heat would weaken the aluminium structure of the wing and the flilght loads would tear it off. In my time as aircrew on a multi-engine military aircraft, an uncontrollable wing hot indication (bleed air leak/fire etc) would mean an immediate ditching before what I mentioned would inevitably happen.

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2 minutes ago, VampireNZ said:

Also was actually just watching some YT vids of IL-2 combat and noticed a fighter with a flaming wing root (ruptured fuel tank I presume) tearing around like nothing was wrong.

IRL the heat would weaken the aluminium structure of the wing and the flilght loads would tear it off. In my time as aircrew on a multi-engine military aircraft, an uncontrollable wing hot indication (bleed air leak/fire etc) would mean an immediate ditching before what I mentioned would inevitably happen.

I am 99% sure that happens in the game already. Wing comes off after some time with fire or the fuel tank eventually explodes

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48 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

Is not trolling. I just hope that the change will improve in all ways the Dm not just solving one problem at the cost of causing other. 

 

 


you're not new to this forum. I'm sure you've seen countless posts about 30mm and their effectiveness along with all of the same pictures you've attached.

 

Eventually every one those posts concludes with the fact that historically there was a great deal of variables in the way the 30mm penetrates/explodes in real combat environment compared to a controlled testbed depicted in those pictures. 

 

IL2 is simulating the real combat scenario and not a static test, invalidating your claims. Hence let's not prolong this argument any further as it is quite pointless.

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3 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:


you're not new to this forum. I'm sure you've seen countless posts about 30mm and their effectiveness along with all of the same pictures you've attached.

 

Eventually every one those posts concludes with the fact that historically there was a great deal of variables in the way the 30mm penetrates/explodes in real combat environment compared to a controlled testbed depicted in those pictures. 

 

IL2 is simulating the real combat scenario and not a static test, invalidating your claims. Hence let's not prolong this argument any further as it is quite pointless.

I guess the english goverment had money to spend on useless test that did not represent the combat enviroment and wich made any conclusion. You know... they were kind of stupids and they did not know that the test is rubish and invalid. For sure some guys on the forum knows more than enginiers and military making the test. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

I guess the english goverment had money to spend on useless test that did not represent the combat enviroment and wich made any conclusion. You know... they were kind of stupids and they did not know that the test is rubish and invalid. For sure some guys on the forum knows more than enginiers and military making the test. 

 

 

you're jumping in to conclusions very quickly.  I didn't say that 30mm wasn't capable of de-winging aircraft. I just wanted you to stop this argument because given the previous history this argument goes nowhere. Just like now.  Simply put:  1) Q: can 30mm dewing? A: quite possibly Yes.  2) Q: Can it dewing every time? A:No.  3) Q: Why not? A: because Variables. 

Better?

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11 minutes ago, E69_geramos109 said:

I guess the english goverment had money to spend on useless test that did not represent the combat enviroment and wich made any conclusion. You know... they were kind of stupids and they did not know that the test is rubish and invalid. For sure some guys on the forum knows more than enginiers and military making the test. 

 

 

Do you have any links to videos of P47s and P51s being de winged by 30mm hits? I would be interested in seeing them.

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Thank you for this heads up Jason. For me this is the most anticipated updates and developments of all - far better than new content like maps, aircraft to be honest. It adds depth and I am quite convinced that such engineering based approach to structural damage is a game changer as far as combat flight sims go.

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4 minutes ago, Count_de_Money said:

 

you're jumping in to conclusions very quickly.  I didn't say that 30mm wasn't capable of de-winging aircraft. I just wanted you to stop this argument because given the previous history this argument goes nowhere. Just like now.  Simply put:  1) Q: can 30mm dewing? A: quite possibly Yes.  2) Q: Can it dewing every time? A:No.  3) Q: Why not? A: because Variables. 

Better?

Yes that is why i posted "should be" an not "must" so i was not pretending to troll

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