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NVIDIA DLSS - could this be the thing for IL2 and VR?

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Given that it appears that DLSS seems to require the customised tuning of AI on a per-game basis, I think it unlikely that it will be of much relevance to IL-2 GB any time soon. I can't see NVIDIA treating such a niche product as a priority.

 

https://www.nvidia.com/en-gb/geforce/news/graphics-reinvented-new-technologies-in-rtx-graphics-cards/#dlss

https://www.nvidia.com/en-gb/geforce/news/nvidia-dlss-your-questions-answered/

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I tried using DLSS when I played Control earlier this year, and only got worse resolution and clarity when on, so I'm going to have to say it needs more work at the very least.  Also, like many Nvidia technologies, it's a big "IF", when it comes to VR implementation.

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3 hours ago, AndyJWest said:

Given that it appears that DLSS seems to require the customised tuning of AI on a per-game basis, I think it unlikely that it will be of much relevance to IL-2 GB any time soon.

 

That's no longer true. DLSS 2.0 apparently has one algorithm that works across games.

 

https://www.techspot.com/article/1992-nvidia-dlss-2020/

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Works great in BF5. Just needs time to develop the algorithm 

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Considering the importance and difficulties with spotting, I wouldn't put big hopes into upscaling, but of course I could be wrong. Maybe upscaling could result in distant planes being easier to spot, but that would surprise me.

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5 hours ago, coconut said:

Considering the importance and difficulties with spotting, I wouldn't put big hopes into upscaling, but of course I could be wrong. Maybe upscaling could result in distant planes being easier to spot, but that would surprise me.

 

Yep, I'd agree. There's an interesting foveated rendering algorithm done by machine learning, though -- it can take a sparse image and fill in the blanks. So you could end up with VRSS in the middle of the image making it look great, eye tracking and foveated rendering making things run faster, and then sparse foveated fill-in making things run *really* fast. This stuff is going to get crazy good over the next decade as we put all the pieces together.

 

https://ai.facebook.com/blog/deepfovea-using-deep-learning-for-foveated-reconstruction-in-ar-vr/

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Posted (edited)

Oculus Link with Quest already does a form of this with the resolution which helps performance going through the Link cable.

 

Edited by dburne

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So how does one go about getting the best response from our dev's to see if DLSS is possible or even on their radar?

 

The VR and 4K monitor communities have grown exponentially over the last two years and optimization is starting to lag DCS and many other vr playable games.  Since the move to DX12 is much more intrusive, DLSS2.0 might be a happy little bandaid that unlocks performance.

 

I still get stuttering on normal preset with 9700k and 2080ti, both watercooled.

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I'm not sure why Nvidia ignores IL-2. I have no idea what collaboration is needed between the dev's and nvidia but I wish there was some.

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8 hours ago, Senor_Jefe-6 said:

So how does one go about getting the best response from our dev's to see if DLSS is possible or even on their radar?

 

3 hours ago, driftaholic said:

I'm not sure why Nvidia ignores IL-2. I have no idea what collaboration is needed between the dev's and nvidia but I wish there was some.

 

It might be like VRSS -- you can enable it by using the NVidia Profile Inspector (not official, not from NVidia). Thus enabling the option without official support. It might work.

 

I suspect though that anyone with spotting problems is going to have a worse time after enabling DLSS and it'll be mostly useful for single player or icons-on servers.

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12 hours ago, driftaholic said:

I'm not sure why Nvidia ignores IL-2. I have no idea what collaboration is needed between the dev's and nvidia but I wish there was some.

Nvidia needs no interaction, by design.  They've provided the algorithm and dev's can use it as they please.

8 hours ago, Alonzo said:

 

 

It might be like VRSS -- you can enable it by using the NVidia Profile Inspector (not official, not from NVidia). Thus enabling the option without official support. It might work.

 

I suspect though that anyone with spotting problems is going to have a worse time after enabling DLSS and it'll be mostly useful for single player or icons-on servers.

It's a bit more complicated than that.  If VRSS is a post processing ReShade, then DLSS is a visual rework of the engine. 

 

My point is that it should be more efficient in providing SS, which should reduce the gpu usage.

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Posted (edited)

DLSS is really just a horrible gimmick. It’s basically just rendering a low resolution and upscaling, or actually looks worse than just that simple solution. Yes of course that would improve your performance but looks terrible. A display will always look better at its native resolution and that’s certainly true with 4K. 

 

Edited by SharpeXB

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Oh Sure, a Star Wars collector and MSI promoter debunks the DLSS hoax Nvidia tries to perpetrate on all of us... uhmm, I can't think of the right word describing the would be, us.

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43 minutes ago, Drum said:

Oh Sure, a Star Wars collector and MSI promoter debunks the DLSS hoax Nvidia tries to perpetrate on all of us... uhmm, I can't think of the right word describing the would be, us.

Try DLSS for yourself, it’s garbage. 

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Posted (edited)

Dude you're wrong. It's entirely based on the amount of sampling done by "AI". Titles that have had DLSS enabled for some time show nearly the same fidelity as a native image and I personally get about 15% more fps. FFXV and BFV are excellent examples that I have played. Yes when it was first released it was sub-par but as most things it's matured over time. Your attitude towards anything that isn't the way you do it personally is what's garbage. 

Edited by driftaholic

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53 minutes ago, driftaholic said:

Dude you're wrong. It's entirely based on the amount of sampling done by "AI". Titles that have had DLSS enabled for some time show nearly the same fidelity as a native image and I personally get about 15% more fps. FFXV and BFV are excellent examples that I have played. Yes when it was first released it was sub-par but as most things it's matured over time. Your attitude towards anything that isn't the way you do it personally is what's garbage. 

It looks like crap in 4K. Again all it’s really doing is running the game at lower res, which boosts FPS obviously, and then upscaling it. In 2160p the softness is very noticeable. BFV is where I’ve tried it and it looks awful. 

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You don't get it, not everyone has a 2080 TI and a 4K monitor. Also DLSS 2.0 is already much sharper. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, driftaholic said:

You don't get it, not everyone has a 2080 TI and a 4K monitor. Also DLSS 2.0 is already much sharper. 

you need a RTX 20 series GPU to run DLSS so... 

 

DLSS also isn’t “Super Sampling” which means rendering the image at a higher resolution and then downscaling it to the screen.

Its actually “Upscaling” a lower resolution up to the resolution of the monitor. This is similar to what an upscaling DVD player does to put an image onto a 1080p TV. There are better or worse implementations of this but the resulting image cannot be as good as a native high res signal. 
 

The problem with any form of upscaling is that simply running the native resolution of your monitor will always look better. Why get an expensive 4K monitor and RTX card and then run a softer image on it? Save yourself the money and run a 1440p or 1080p screen, it will look better. 
 

And as far as VR is concerned the problem is that headsets really need “pixel density” or real super sampling to smooth out their images since you are seeing them so large in the headset. Making the image softer with DLSS isn’t something I can imagine would be useful here. 
 

Apparently DLSS has improved quite a bit with 2.0 like you mentioned  But it really appears to be a case of over promising and underdelivering when it comes to implementing it in actual games  

The bottom line common sense advice IMO is, always match the resolution of your monitor and graphics card potential and avoid upscaling or super sampling gimmicks  

 

Edited by SharpeXB
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Impressive video, I finally understand what DLSS is all about now, thank you very much and nicely done!

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

you need a RTX 20 series GPU to run DLSS so... 

 

DLSS also isn’t “Super Sampling” which means rendering the image at a higher resolution and then downscaling it to the screen.

Its actually “Upscaling” a lower resolution up to the resolution of the monitor. This is similar to what an upscaling DVD player does to put an image onto a 1080p TV. There are better or worse implementations of this but the resulting image cannot be as good as a native high res signal. 
 

The problem with any form of upscaling is that simply running the native resolution of your monitor will always look better. Why get an expensive 4K monitor and RTX card and then run a softer image on it? Save yourself the money and run a 1440p or 1080p screen, it will look better. 
 

And as far as VR is concerned the problem is that headsets really need “pixel density” or real super sampling to smooth out their images since you are seeing them so large in the headset. Making the image softer with DLSS isn’t something I can imagine would be useful here. 
 

Apparently DLSS has improved quite a bit with 2.0 like you mentioned  But it really appears to be a case of over promising and underdelivering when it comes to implementing it in actual games  

The bottom line common sense advice IMO is, always match the resolution of your monitor and graphics card potential and avoid upscaling or super sampling gimmicks

 

DLSS is super sampling. It's just not done on your hardware. It's done by a very powerful array of tensor cores in a Q learning fashion to develop rendering techniques that require less GPU power then traditional super sampling. These techniques are what your GPU applies to your native resolution image. You're thinking of it like it's meant to render to a 1440p monitor from a 1080p source, in fact its geared more towards taking that 1080p source meant for a 1080p monitor and applying a upsample to that via these AI derived techniques.  So if you really want to make a fair comparison run your 4k monitor in 1080p with integer scaling then playing a game at 1080p then test 4k traditional Super Sampling vs DLSS. Or test on a 1080p monitor. This would actually give a fair comparison and you will quickly see how much overhead is gained by DLSS over traditional SS. Obviously the closer you get to the native resolution that DLSS was trained the less benefit you will see, which is probably why you have such a poor review of it. Alternatively you can render at 1440p and upscale to 4K then compare that to 4K DLSS where then you will see a Quality improvement vs a performance one.

 

So actually DLSS has great potential for VR by creating super-sampling techniques that don't require the image to be rendered at an actual super sampled resolution. It's early days for deep learning and the big gain from DLSS 2.0 is that it doesn't have to be trained on a per title basis, which is excellent news for a game like IL-2  where our dev's and Nvidia don't collaborate.

 

TLDR: It's not an image quality enhancing technique it's a performance boosting technique. In a performance bound scenario the solution with the best performance wins.

Edited by driftaholic
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12 hours ago, driftaholic said:

DLSS is super sampling.

It literally isn't

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersampling
This is achieved by rendering the image at a much higher resolution than the one being displayed, then shrinking it to the desired size, using the extra pixels for calculation”

 

It’s upscaling

https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/upscaling-how-does-it-work-and-is-it-worth-it/

 

Nvidia just figures “Dynamic Learning Upscaling” didn’t sound sexy enough... 🤔

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Posted (edited)

@SharpeXB.  You seem to be in the wrong sub forum.  This is the VR category.  Your argument, while valid in your 4k monitor application, is inconsequential in this thread.

 

And yes, Pimax 8k is technically capable of 4k resolutions, but it's in the severe minority in the VR space.

 

For VR, it makes sense to open up as much GPU headroom as possible, especially for a DX11 game poorly optimized for VR in the first place.  Out of curiosity, do you currently use VR? If not, are you simply trolling?

Edited by Senor_Jefe-6

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Doesn't seem like trolling to me just sharing information with interpretation. Whether they are correct interpretations or not I cannot tell. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Senor_Jefe-6 said:

@SharpeXB.  You seem to be in the wrong sub forum.  This is the VR category.  Your argument, while valid in your 4k monitor application, is inconsequential in this thread.

 

And yes, Pimax 8k is technically capable of 4k resolutions, but it's in the severe minority in the VR space.

 

For VR, it makes sense to open up as much GPU headroom as possible, especially for a DX11 game poorly optimized for VR in the first place.  Out of curiosity, do you currently use VR? If not, are you simply trolling?

The subject here on this thread is DLSS. And it can used at all resolutions, not just 4K. And there are 2160p headsets like the Reverb

As for its usefulness in VR (and no I don’t use VR) I understand what most people are doing to improve smoothness and clarity is actual super sampling ie pixel density, which is the opposite of what DLSS is doing. 
Plus the performance bottleneck many people face in sims like this is their CPU. The performance benefit of DLSS only helps your GPU. I’ve only tried DLSS in Battlefield V and the results were not good. According to the review above it seems to work well in Wolfenstein Young Blood but that’s the only title so far where that’s the case. I haven’t tried that game yet. 

Edited by SharpeXB

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4 hours ago, Senor_Jefe-6 said:

@SharpeXB.  You seem to be in the wrong sub forum.  This is the VR category.  Your argument, while valid in your 4k monitor application, is inconsequential in this thread.

 

  Out of curiosity, do you currently use VR? If not, are you simply trolling?

He does think that VR is any good so he posts on VR topics to tell us how bad it really is. :)

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The definition if the word super sampling isn't really important and doesn't make your point and more valid than it already isn't. DLSS It's not an image quality enhancing technique it's a performance boosting technique. In a performance bound scenario the solution with the best performance wins.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, DD_Crash said:

He does think that VR is any good so he posts on VR topics to tell us how bad it really is. :)

Defensive much?

33 minutes ago, driftaholic said:

The definition if the word super sampling isn't really important and doesn't make your point and more valid than it already isn't. DLSS It's not an image quality enhancing technique it's a performance boosting technique. In a performance bound scenario the solution with the best performance wins.

Well it’s good in exactly one game so far. Let’s see how it goes...

 

If you want supersampling there’s Nvidia Dynamic Super Resolution (don’t you love marketing buzz speak?), which is actual super sampling ( and also not such a great idea... although it’s a fix for the cloud jaggies in IL-2)

Edited by SharpeXB

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Why do you take an interest in the VR forum if you are not interested?

Just askin`

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1 hour ago, DD_Crash said:

Why do you take an interest in the VR forum if you are not interested?

Just askin`

 

I do not care even if he does not have IL2, 4k monitor or VR, fact is, he is bringing us the technical information, and sometimes its rough for some experts, like his comment on:  benchmarking based on a video scene or like now about DLSS. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Dutch2 said:

 

I do not care even if he does not have IL2, 4k monitor or VR, fact is, he is bringing us the technical information, and sometimes its rough for some experts, like his comment on:  benchmarking based on a video scene or like now about DLSS. 

 

That's all fine and good, but unless you define an application of usage, then you can argue anything irrelevant. 

 

I want to now point out that DLSS is absolutely horrible when using it to navigate a satellite space launch; it's really just no good.  Down with DLSS!

 

Now, if we get back to VR, since you know, it's the VR section, please let us know what your research says in those applications.  VR and 2d have very few similarities in IL2.  Settings are different, gpu and cpu utilization is on another planet, and it all changes between different headsets even.  

 

TL:DR - A hybrid car would make a horrible work truck, so stop talking about it in that light.

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Posted (edited)

The thread title is:

Quote

 


NVIDIA DLSS - could this be the thing for IL2 and VR?
 

 

 

Me thinks there is a clue in there...

;)

 

I personally have not tried it, at least that I recall, as I don't think it is going to do much for VR and IL-2 but interesting topic nonetheless. What

it may or may not do for 4K monitor users I would think is irrelevant to the topic.

Edited by dburne

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4 hours ago, DD_Crash said:

Why do you take an interest in the VR forum if you are not interested?

Just askin`

I’m just providing info on DLSS. Watch the videos, they explain the issues very well. I’ve tried DLSS and had the same experience. 

2 hours ago, dburne said:

What it may or may not do for 4K monitor users I would think is irrelevant to the topic.

DLSS functions at all resolutions, not just 4K. It’s possible that it’s shortcomings are more evident at very high resolutions because at that level any flaw or artifact is easily seen.

3 hours ago, Senor_Jefe-6 said:

That's all fine and good, but unless you define an application of usage, then you can argue anything irrelevant. 

VR headsets use pixels made by graphics cards... in that sense they’re exactly the same as a monitor. The effect of what this feature does would be apparent in 3D as well as 2D. Maybe you’d perceive artifacts even worse due to how large the pixels appear in a headset, it’s like sitting with your nose right up to a screen. I can’t imagine the benefit in VR to upscale an image with DLSS to a large size and then down sample it with the pixel density settings. 

If you’re looking for a Nvidia feature to help VR that would be VRSS.

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